In the market for a new car

[almagest]

I got into an accident the other day (some lady hit me going 45 in a 25 zone), and my trusty '01 Cavalier will unfortunately have to be totaled. As such, I'm in the market for a new car. I'd rather buy new -- not that I'm necessarily opposed to buying used, but me, my friends, and my family have historically gotten much better deals on new cars, plus some of the '08 revisions and new models are pretty intriguing. My choices so far (based on reviews from Consumer Reports, mostly, and a few from friends) are:

 

- Scion xD

- Honda Civic Coupe

- Mazda 3

- Mitsubishi Lancer

- Ford Focus

 

As you can probably tell by those choices, I would really like to stay around or below 17 grand. I don't drive enough to justify spending any more.

 

Any feedback on those choices? Any dealerships you've had good experiences with? Any of you sell cars, or have family/friends that do, that could work out a good deal with me?

[GoodAsGould]

Ok most of those cars you listed are absolute garbage. Definitely stay away from the Lancer and Mazda. If you want a Scion, I personally like the tC if anything. Other cars you should look into are Mitsubishi Galant, Toyota Corolla/Camry, and Honda Accord. All of those should be in your price range and better cars than the 5 you listed.

[almagest]

Ok most of those cars you listed are absolute garbage. Definitely stay away from the Lancer and Mazda. If you want a Scion, I personally like the tC if anything. Other cars you should look into are Mitsubishi Galant, Toyota Corolla/Camry, and Honda Accord. All of those should be in your price range and better cars than the 5 you listed.

 

The Civic won Motor Trend's 2006 Car of the Year award, and the Accord is generally $4000-$6000 more than the Civic. The Mazda 3 and the Focus were two of the top three small cars, as rated by Consumer Reports (Civic was the other). The Lancer was recently redesigned as well, and seems like a much better value now. Corollas never impressed me much, and they're slipping as far as ratings go. My family already has a Camry, and I don't like the way it handles.

 

I'll check into the Galant, though I think that's also slightly more than I'd like to spend. Thanks!

[GoodAsGould]

Well the Civic was the one car I didnt have a problem with on your list. Just, to me personally the Accord seems like a better car for the more practical man.

[almagest]

Well the Civic was the one car I didnt have a problem with on your list. Just, to me personally the Accord seems like a better car for the more practical man.

 

What makes you claim the other cars are garbage? Most everything I've read so far has been positive, but I'd certainly like to see any negative press or opinions about anything I'm considering.

 

I do like the Accord, but it's beyond what I want to spend.

 

I'm also considering a Versa or Sentra, as well.

[StrangeSox]

New vs. used is really going to depend on what sort of deals the dealerships are offering (0% financing, cash back, etc.). With the depreciation hit that new cars take, you really should consider buying a car that's a year or two old

 

The Civic isn't bad, and I like the Scions my friends have (no xD, though). My friend's Focus is a pile of garbage. Nissan Sentras have always been pretty solid.

[NorthSideSox72]

You may want to consider a hybrid as well (Toyota and Honda make hybrids in your car/price range). I posted a while back in the Buster the math I did on payback period for the added cost, and with federal and state tax credits, the period has shrunk dramatically. For me, it was only about a year. I'll see if I can find the post and link to it.

 

[EvilMonkey]

I like the Mazda 3, but if my current Mitsubishi dies or gets replaced, i am getting an HHR like I have for my work car. Bright orange with flames, good MPG and fun to drive.

[NorthSideSox72]

OK I couldn't link to it, but, here is the post (note that your math may be different, but you can plug in your numbers to get a result)...

 

Posted by: NorthSideSox72 Nov 8, 2007 -> 10:04 AM

This could be put in the Investing thread (re: oil), or the catch-all anything thread... but it seems best here. My wife and I finally bit the bullet yesterday, and ordered a hybrid vehicle. Due to the ridiculously high demand, it will take 3 to 6 months to get it. With gas prices soaring again, the amount of gas my wife uses to get to/from work, and out desire to try to reduce our energy usage and pollution levels, we thought it was time to seriously look at doing this. Since its been discussed in here many times, I thought I'd share the math with you...

 

Our current car is a 2004 Saturn VUE AWD V6, and it averages about 17 mpg (though it can be 15 or 16 at times, or 20 at best on all-open-road miles). It was rated to get 18 city and 24 highway, via the older rating system, which was not realistic. The wife drives a 44 mile round trip daily to work and back, plus we put some miles on it here and there, and we end up with about 1100 miles per month. The miles are almost entirely "city" for mpg purposes, because in rush hour, the highway is stop and go. So our gas costs look like this...

 

@$3.00/gallon: 1100 miles / 17 mpg = 64.7 gallons * $3.00 = $194.10/month

 

@$3.50/gallon: 1100 miles / 17 mpg = 64.7 gallons * $3.50 = $226.45/month

 

We wanted a car in the same small/compact SUV class (reasons are multiple, but they include camping trips, dirt roads to our property, AWD for snow/ice and safety issues). The only full hybrid in the class was the Ford Escape / Mercury Mariner, which gets 34 mpg for city use, which is on the newer more accurate guidelines (was 38 before I think). So now our gas costs would look like this:

 

@$3.00/gallon: 1100 miles / 34 mpg = 32.4 gallons * $3.00 = $97.20/month

 

@$3.50/gallon: 1100 miles / 34 mpg = 32.4 gallons * $3.50 = $113.40/month

 

We're around $3.25 right now, but it will probably hover around $3.50 for most of next year, so we'd be saving about $113 a month, or $1360 a year.

 

The differential cost of a hybrid over a non-hybrid in the Ford Escape (similarly equiped) is about $3400. That means that on gas savings alone, the payoff period is 2.5 years. That's shorter than we'd own a car typically, so, even just looking at the cost of gas over time, it looks like its worth it. But it gets better. The federal government gives $2200 one-time tax credit (not a deduction - a full credit) for this model hybrid, and Illinois gives $1000. That means that $3200 of the $3400 differential price is wiped out anyway, and the $200 you make up in gas savings in about 2 months. So, given the tax cycle, the payoff period for this car is now, at worst, a year. Everything after that is money in our pockets.

 

Our situation is not the same as everyone else's of course. If you buy a Prius or something that gets even more mileage, you save more. If your current car is already very efficient, you save less. But for us, the cost savings alone will be quite significant over the 3 or 4 years we are likely to own that car. Then there are the side benefits. Resale value of a hybrid will probably be quite good, given the high demand. And then there is the fact that if we are using half as much gas, we are probably putting half as much crap into the air and water.

 

Basically, this works out great for us. Payoff period in under a year, and we're doing a tiny little something better for the environment. Next time you are looking at cars, you should explore this path as well.

 

[StrangeSox]

With the hybrids, you really need to look on a case-by-case basis. Some hybrids are great. Others cost thousands more and get maybe 1 or 2 mpg more, or, in some rare cases, are even worse overall. Also, the older EPA testing methods favored hybrid engines and gave them artificially inflated MPG. They have a new system now, but I don't know if 2008 cars are rated on it.

[NorthSideSox72]

With the hybrids, you really need to look on a case-by-case basis. Some hybrids are great. Others cost thousands more and get maybe 1 or 2 mpg more, or, in some rare cases, are even worse overall. Also, the older EPA testing methods favored hybrid engines and gave them artificially inflated MPG. They have a new system now, but I don't know if 2008 cars are rated on it.

1. The new MPG ratings start with 2008 models. I used them in my math. The old ratings favored ALL cars - they were unrealistic for current driving conditions.

 

2. Absolutely right about case-by-case - and some hybrids, like the VUE Green Line, are just "light" hybrids that only get a little improvement.

 

3. I don't know where you are seeing any that get only the same or worse mpg though - that would be news to me.

 

[Texsox]

New vs. used is really going to depend on what sort of deals the dealerships are offering (0% financing, cash back, etc.). With the depreciation hit that new cars take, you really should consider buying a car that's a year or two old

 

At least consider it. Take a look at some of those same cars with 25,000 miles or so and the prices. You can negotiate a lot harder on used cars, so that comes into play. For most of twenty years I was in a position where I had to buy new cars. Once that was over and I could really analyze cost of ownership, I've been buying used. Even if you buy new, you will be driving a used car in a month or two.

[Soxy]

I'll second whoever mentioned the corolla. I love mine. My friends with civics also love them.

 

My parents and sister also just bought Elantras (6 months ago and 2 years ago, respectively) and they seem to like them pretty well and haven't had any issues.

[Texsox]

Of course these recommendations are meaningless because we do not know what the primary purpose of the vehicle is. We're all assuming just basic transportation for one or two adults. No car pools, car seats, no trips with lots of luggage. We also do not know your knowledge level with cars and how well you maintain them. What I am currently driving is a disaster for anyone who does not maintain vehicles perfectly. It is also the biggest bargain among the 2004s. I'm planning on giving it to my son this summer. I picked something for him that was bigger, so he had plenty of trunk space getting back and forth from school. I wanted some steel around him to win any fender to fenders with Civics. Five passenger comfort for college road trip, even if it is just and hour away to Austin. I also wanted him to be a slave to maintenance, so he developed some good habits. All of which would be about the opposite of the direction you are leading.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Ok most of those cars you listed are absolute garbage. Definitely stay away from the Lancer and Mazda. If you want a Scion, I personally like the tC if anything. Other cars you should look into are Mitsubishi Galant, Toyota Corolla/Camry, and Honda Accord. All of those should be in your price range and better cars than the 5 you listed.

 

 

where do you get that about Mazda's they are consistently great cars that keep their value.

[Leonard Zelig]

I just bought a used Suburu Outback, and I love it. It replaced my '95 Camry that I drove the piss out of(225,000 miles and going strong). I didn't plan on getting rid of the Toyota, but my dad totalled his car so I sold it to him. As little as he drives the Camry should last him as long as he needs it too. Anyway, the inside of the Outback feels so similar to my Camry, it seems like I'm driving the same car, just younger. Plus, it's got All Wheel Drive and the extra room in back, which I wanted for hauling music equipment. The gas mileage is not as good as my Toyota, but I was willing to trade that for the extra room. Based on what I looked at when I was shopping, you could probably find an '05-'07 Outback in that price range.

[StrangeSox]

At least consider it. Take a look at some of those same cars with 25,000 miles or so and the prices. You can negotiate a lot harder on used cars, so that comes into play. For most of twenty years I was in a position where I had to buy new cars. Once that was over and I could really analyze cost of ownership, I've been buying used. Even if you buy new, you will be driving a used car in a month or two.

 

I don't know that I'd ever by brand-new myself. Last spring I bought a car with less than 15,000 miles and 18 months of warranty left for a little more than half the sticker price.

 

However, if you're going hybrid, you won't get the tax credits if you buy used, so that throws a wrench into the cost analysis.

[almagest]

Of course these recommendations are meaningless because we do not know what the primary purpose of the vehicle is. We're all assuming just basic transportation for one or two adults. No car pools, car seats, no trips with lots of luggage. We also do not know your knowledge level with cars and how well you maintain them. What I am currently driving is a disaster for anyone who does not maintain vehicles perfectly. It is also the biggest bargain among the 2004s. I'm planning on giving it to my son this summer. I picked something for him that was bigger, so he had plenty of trunk space getting back and forth from school. I wanted some steel around him to win any fender to fenders with Civics. Five passenger comfort for college road trip, even if it is just and hour away to Austin. I also wanted him to be a slave to maintenance, so he developed some good habits. All of which would be about the opposite of the direction you are leading.

 

Basic transportation for one or two adults is essentially all I'll be doing, mostly in the city. I barely put 1,000 miles a month on my cars, and I tend to hold on to them for as long as they'll run reliably. I'm probably average when it comes to car maintenance -- I buy gas when I'm around 1/4 of a tank, I have my oil changed every 3000 miles, I wash it every few weeks at a cheap car wash near my house, and I'll bring it in to a mechanic I know when something seems off. A car that requires anything beyond that is probably not for me, though.

 

I'll check out some used cars with low mileage on them too. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

[Texsox]

You would be surprised by how many people stretch that oil change to 10,000 miles, never look at Trans fluid, check their coolent unless the heater doesn't blow, etc. Even the fuel level. Not many people realize that the fuel pump in most cars is cooled by the gas in the tank. When you dip below 1/4 tank in many cars, the pump runs hotter. It's a little thing that may never cause a problem, but why risk it on a routine basis?

[NorthSideSox72]

You would be surprised by how many people stretch that oil change to 10,000 miles, never look at Trans fluid, check their coolent unless the heater doesn't blow, etc. Even the fuel level. Not many people realize that the fuel pump in most cars is cooled by the gas in the tank. When you dip below 1/4 tank in many cars, the pump runs hotter. It's a little thing that may never cause a problem, but why risk it on a routine basis?

On many new cars, actually, 10k is now the normal interval. On our hybrid for example, they recommend doing one at the first 3000, then only going every 10000 after that.

 

[Balta1701]

You would be surprised by how many people stretch that oil change to 10,000 miles, never look at Trans fluid, check their coolent unless the heater doesn't blow, etc. Even the fuel level. Not many people realize that the fuel pump in most cars is cooled by the gas in the tank. When you dip below 1/4 tank in many cars, the pump runs hotter. It's a little thing that may never cause a problem, but why risk it on a routine basis?

Never knew that. So that's basically a reason to stay above 1/4 of a tank for most normal work in vehicles eh?

 

FWIW in this thread, I've been driving an 06 Civic EX for about 1.5 years now and have basically no complaints. I don't put a ton of use into it (bout 8000 miles or so thus far I think) but it did a nice job doing the 2 way trip from Pasadena to NW Indiana last year for my wedding (averaged about 39 mpg on the road). Looking back I sort of wish I'd gotten the hybrid because I saw a deal on one about a month after I'd bought mine that might have made it worth it, but I'd be relying a lot on the resale value to make up for that because I don't put a lot of miles on the thing. Do really like the way it feels, drives very well, very nimble, and had what seemed to me to be significant upgrades over the Corolla in terms of things like the safety features and the manufacturing (although that could have changed with the next model of the Toyotas).

 

The other thing I would keep in mind in terms of the hybrids is that we're approaching the era where the next generation of hybrids, either ones using upgraded batteries or some sort of fully plug-in hybrid system will be available at reasonable costs (probably within a couple years, 2010 is the time when most of them are saying they'll have them to market), so that's another thing to take into account.

[Balta1701]

On many new cars, actually, 10k is now the normal interval. On our hybrid for example, they recommend doing one at the first 3000, then only going every 10000 after that.

The civic, for example, also includes some sort of calculator that actually figures out based on your driving habits how long you should go before changing most of those fluids, including the oil.

[Steve9347]

Buying new is so foolish. The moment you drive that sucker off the lot it loses near 10k in value. Go to cars.com and price the used cars... you can get 2007 models with less than 10k miles on them for a fraction of the price of buying new.

[iamshack]

On many new cars, actually, 10k is now the normal interval. On our hybrid for example, they recommend doing one at the first 3000, then only going every 10000 after that.

 

I'm not sure about that. I've been in a constant search to find the REAL answer to this question. I drive an Audi TT Coupe, and was told by the dealer that I only needed to change the oil every 10k miles. So after I purchased the car, I think I waited about 6,500 miles before I took it in for an oil change. The guys at the oil place approached me after starting the oil change, and asked me how long it had been since I had the oil changed. I told them never- the dealership told me 10k miles and I had only gone 6.5k since I bought it. They brought out a "certified" Audi tech to explain this catch-22 to me:

 

The Audi engines are built to sustain 10k without an oil change- hell, you could probably even go more than that without problems. But there are no oils manufactured that can sustain 10k miles without getting thick and sludgy and clogging things up. So the car can handle it, but no current oil can.

 

So I ended up buying a synthetic oil that lasts about 6,000 miles before it needs changing.

 

Did a little research on the web, and this seems to be the appropriate oil for my car, and the appropriate time to change it in, but I am still not sure who is telling me the truth- the dealers/manufacturers of the cars, or the oil change franchises that stand to gain by getting you in there every 3k miles.

[Balta1701]

Did a little research on the web, and this seems to be the appropriate oil for my car, and the appropriate time to change it in, but I am still not sure who is telling me the truth- the dealers/manufacturers of the cars, or the oil change franchises that stand to gain by getting you in there every 3k miles.

I think part of the problem is that there is no firm answer...a lot depends on your driving habits. The performance of oil will vary a lot between different engines being worked at different intensities under different conditions, and there's just no way around it.