In the market for a new car

[iamshack]

Buying new is so foolish. The moment you drive that sucker off the lot it loses near 10k in value. Go to cars.com and price the used cars... you can get 2007 models with less than 10k miles on them for a fraction of the price of buying new.

 

Well, I wouldn't say it so bluntly, but he's absolutely correct. I would advise a person to buy themselves a new car once in their life, just to feel what it is like to have a vehicle that has never been driven by anyone else before. But then, never buy another new car again! They are such an absolute ripoff. I have never understood why someone would pay $17 k for a Ford Focus when they could go buy a really, really nice used car, 1-2 years old, with very little mileage on it. As long as you do your research with the accident reports and such, there is nothing to be concerned about when buying a used vehicle.

 

I don't believe I'll ever buy new again....(unless I become filthy rich, of course...

[Texsox]

The civic, for example, also includes some sort of calculator that actually figures out based on your driving habits how long you should go before changing most of those fluids, including the oil.

 

There are a few factors that come into the automakers suggested fluid changes. Waaaaaay back in the 80s the "cost of ownership" marketing battle was waged. One way to prop up retail prices was "my car can go longer without scheduled maintenance than their car". So the marketing and sales types had/have a vested interest in longer recommended intervals. Engineers don't win these battles very often. Not their required skill set. Sales and marketing guys are required to have that skill set.

 

And there really are too many variables. All oils and filters are designed and built to a minimum standard. Some exceed the standard, some by a larger margin. Some people drive differently than others. There are too many variables to predict the optimum time to change *the specific* oil that is in *your specific* car right now. So it becomes a most oil in most cars using most filters should change at this time.

 

My recommendation, 3,000 on dino oil, 5,000 to 6,000 with synthetics. And use a quality filter, not the crap that Jiffy Lube will recommend. And do not let Jiffy touch your transmission. The fluid they use is an "all purpose" that they add additives in to match your vehicle. Oil is the cheapest insurance for long life in your car.

[iamshack]

I think part of the problem is that there is no firm answer...a lot depends on your driving habits. The performance of oil will vary a lot between different engines being worked at different intensities under different conditions, and there's just no way around it.

 

Well, I'm sure those are factors that go into the equation. But there is a major issue when the dealers are telling us 10k miles and the oil people are telling us their best synthetics can only go 6k miles. That's a real problem.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, I wouldn't say it so bluntly, but he's absolutely correct. I would advise a person to buy themselves a new car once in their life, just to feel what it is like to have a vehicle that has never been driven by anyone else before. But then, never buy another new car again! They are such an absolute ripoff. I have never understood why someone would pay $17 k for a Ford Focus when they could go buy a really, really nice used car, 1-2 years old, with very little mileage on it. As long as you do your research with the accident reports and such, there is nothing to be concerned about when buying a used vehicle.

 

I don't believe I'll ever buy new again....(unless I become filthy rich, of course...

There is always one problem with buying a recent used car... why was it sold? You've got to wonder why someone buys a brand new car, which loses 30%+ of its value in the first year, and then sells it or trades it in. Sure, some people just buy a new car every year because they have money to burn, but think about the other more likely scenarios... they all point to a car that probably had problems of some kind or another. That's the big issue with buying used - you are taking a chance (a significant one if the car is only a year old) that the car is problematic.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, I'm sure those are factors that go into the equation. But there is a major issue when the dealers are telling us 10k miles and the oil people are telling us their best synthetics can only go 6k miles. That's a real problem.

In this case, both the dealer AND the driver's manual say 3k, then 10k. But I suppose part of that may be the fact that this is a hybrid - the gas engine only runs some of the time.

 

[iamshack]

There is always one problem with buying a recent used car... why was it sold? You've got to wonder why someone buys a brand new car, which loses 30%+ of its value in the first year, and then sells it or trades it in. Sure, some people just buy a new car every year because they have money to burn, but think about the other more likely scenarios... they all point to a car that probably had problems of some kind or another. That's the big issue with buying used - you are taking a chance (a significant one if the car is only a year old) that the car is problematic.

 

I don't think as much anymore. Many of these used vehicles are vehicles that were leased and the term is up. But as I said, that is certainly something to make sure you look into- is it Carfax or something reports?

[iamshack]

In this case, both the dealer AND the driver's manual say 3k, then 10k. But I suppose part of that may be the fact that this is a hybrid - the gas engine only runs some of the time.

 

Well the dealer and the driver's manual are playing for the same team.

 

Ask the oil change guy.

Edited January 23, 2008 by iamshack

[Texsox]

That's the big issue with buying used - you are taking a chance (a significant one if the car is only a year old) that the car is problematic.

 

That certainly is a possibility. Then again, the previous owner probably tried to avoid that problem by buying a new car, it didn't work for them in your example.

 

Like anything you have to do some research, but over all, the quality of cars today makes buying most low mileage, newer cars, a safe bet. Plus many times you have the manufactures warranty still in effect. And how much could you spend after saving thousands to take care of those little things?

 

And why does anyone ever trade in a car instead of driving it until it is used up and ready for the crusher?

[CanOfCorn]

Two words...Smart Car. Around 12K with decent gas mileage, I think it's 36 mpg combined city/hwy. Not a lot of trunk space...ok, none. Fits two passengers pretty comfortably and you are up higher than, let's say, a Miata, so it feels bigger than it is. Ever think about a lease?

[NorthSideSox72]

Well the dealer and the driver's manual are playing for the same team.

 

Ask the oil change guy.

Well, the oil change guy has a motivation to have you change the oil more often too, doesn't he?

 

Besides, the dealers make some money off that regular maintenance too. They'll err on the side of too much. So I figure, if the dealer and manual say 10k, that's probably pretty safe.

[StrangeSox]

The Audi engines are built to sustain 10k without an oil change- hell, you could probably even go more than that without problems. But there are no oils manufactured that can sustain 10k miles without getting thick and sludgy and clogging things up. So the car can handle it, but no current oil can.

 

So I ended up buying a synthetic oil that lasts about 6,000 miles before it needs changing.

 

 

Have to call BS on that one. On another automotive forum I frequent, a tribologist (oil expert, basically) did his own tests of synthetic oil in his car. He drained, analyzed, and put back in the oil every 3000 miles or so. After 15,000 miles, the oil showed very little signs of degradation.

 

You want to change your oil after 2-3k on a brand new engine because there's metal that gets worn down. After that, you can 7k+ miles without a change if you're running synthetic.

[StrangeSox]

I don't think as much anymore. Many of these used vehicles are vehicles that were leased and the term is up. But as I said, that is certainly something to make sure you look into- is it Carfax or something reports?

 

Carfax is garbage. My girlfriend traded in her car last year. She had been rear-ended once, and I slid off the road and tore off the side on a tree. Neither accident showed up on the report and both caused frame damage.

[AssHatSoxFan]

Have to call BS on that one. On another automotive forum I frequent, a tribologist (oil expert, basically) did his own tests of synthetic oil in his car. He drained, analyzed, and put back in the oil every 3000 miles or so. After 15,000 miles, the oil showed very little signs of degradation.

 

You want to change your oil after 2-3k on a brand new engine because there's metal that gets worn down. After that, you can 7k+ miles without a change if you're running synthetic.

With good synthetics I totally agree and after having bought a new car my dad has reminded me to get it changed after 2-3k to get all the metal deposits that may be in there after the initial use

 

 

[Texsox]

They brought out a "certified" Audi tech to explain this catch-22 to me:

 

The Audi engines are built to sustain 10k without an oil change- hell, you could probably even go more than that without problems. But there are no oils manufactured that can sustain 10k miles without getting thick and sludgy and clogging things up. So the car can handle it, but no current oil can.

 

There are a couple problems with this statement. What their engine needs is proper lubrication at a minimum specification. The change interval is based, in part, on how fast the oil falls out of spec. There can't be two independent variables. They can't accurately say X miles without factoring in the oil breakdown.

[iamshack]

Have to call BS on that one. On another automotive forum I frequent, a tribologist (oil expert, basically) did his own tests of synthetic oil in his car. He drained, analyzed, and put back in the oil every 3000 miles or so. After 15,000 miles, the oil showed very little signs of degradation.

 

You want to change your oil after 2-3k on a brand new engine because there's metal that gets worn down. After that, you can 7k+ miles without a change if you're running synthetic.

 

Well, hey, it's not my bs, it's the bs of the oil guys. And I absolutely agree that the oil change guys have reason to get you back in there as often as possible. Which is why I don't know who to believe....

 

So you're saying I can just go with what the auto manufacturer says?

[iamshack]

There are a couple problems with this statement. What their engine needs is proper lubrication at a minimum specification. The change interval is based, in part, on how fast the oil falls out of spec. There can't be two independent variables. They can't accurately say X miles without factoring in the oil breakdown.

 

Could you elaborate a bit more? Who is "they"? The car manufacturer or the oil manufacturer?

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, hey, it's not my bs, it's the bs of the oil guys. And I absolutely agree that the oil change guys have reason to get you back in there as often as possible. Which is why I don't know who to believe....

 

So you're saying I can just go with what the auto manufacturer says?

If you think about it, the manufacturer is the one who has the most interest in you having your car kept up - especially in the first few years. It keeps their reliability numbers looking good without any investment on their part, plus their dealers get more maintenance revenue.

 

[iamshack]

If you think about it, the manufacturer is the one who has the most interest in you having your car kept up - especially in the first few years. It keeps their reliability numbers looking good without any investment on their part, plus their dealers get more maintenance revenue.

 

Well, the manufacturer is also the one who has to sell cars in a really competitive market, NOW, as well. They can almost always pass off failures to their vehicles as the owner "not maintaining it properly." But I understand what you are saying.

 

And believe me, I WANT to believe what the manufacturer is telling me- I'd love to only change my oil once every 10k miles. But I also don't want to cause serious damage relying on something that isn't necessarily true. I don't know, I guess I'll have to do more research...

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, the manufacturer is also the one who has to sell cars in a really competitive market, NOW, as well. They can almost always pass off failures to their vehicles as the owner "not maintaining it properly." But I understand what you are saying.

 

And believe me, I WANT to believe what the manufacturer is telling me- I'd love to only change my oil once every 10k miles. But I also don't want to cause serious damage relying on something that isn't necessarily true. I don't know, I guess I'll have to do more research...

You should email the guys on Car Talk. Seriously.

 

[Texsox]

Could you elaborate a bit more? Who is "they"? The car manufacturer or the oil manufacturer?

 

Both, but more on the oil change guys. Audi can not recommend a maintenance program that would result in an engine failure. They would have a massive recall on their hands and ruin themselves in the marketplace. They have to have some data to back that up. In part, what they are measuring is how fast oil breaks down in their engine. So Audi would not make an outlandish claim, and if they did, two guys in an oil change place will not be the guys that figure it out.

 

Now I will also argue a bit on the other side. 10,000 in perfect driving conditions, with a perfectly running engine, with perfect oil, and a great filter, may be possible. But I would never take that chance.

[iamshack]

Both, but more on the oil change guys. Audi can not recommend a maintenance program that would result in an engine failure. They would have a massive recall on their hands and ruin themselves in the marketplace. They have to have some data to back that up. In part, what they are measuring is how fast oil breaks down in their engine. So Audi would not make an outlandish claim, and if they did, two guys in an oil change place will not be the guys that figure it out.

 

Now I will also argue a bit on the other side. 10,000 in perfect driving conditions, with a perfectly running engine, with perfect oil, and a great filter, may be possible. But I would never take that chance.

 

Well, Audi makes that claim all the time, as does BMW, Mercedes, and plenty of other auto manufacturers. I'm sure it's a basic guideline, but from what I have heard, the engines in these particular vehicles can more than back up the claim. But you raise a good point- one would think they would not make such a broad statement like that without fully understanding the nature of the oils that go into their engines. And you are correct again in saying that the guys in my local SooperLube would not be the ones to debunk this "myth."

 

So as you have said and NSS has said, the manufacturers of the vehicle probably are the ones to trust.

 

But I also agree with you on the part of taking a risk. I don't want my engine to explode one morning and have to put $7k into the car because I was too cheap or lazy to just get a $50 oil change every 6k miles...(especially considering I only drive about 8k miles a year).

Edited January 23, 2008 by iamshack

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, Audi makes that claim all the time, as does BMW, Mercedes, and plenty of other auto manufacturers. I'm sure it's a basic guideline, but from what I have heard, the engines in these particular vehicles can more than back up the claim. But you raise a good point- one would think they would not make such a broad statement like that without fully understanding the nature of the oils that go into their engines. And you are correct again in saying that the guys in my local SooperLube would not be the ones to debunk this "myth."

 

So as you have said and NSS has said, the manufacturers of the vehicle probably are the ones to trust.

 

But I also agree with you on the part of taking a risk. I don't want my engine to explode one morning and have to put $7k into the car because I was too cheap or lazy to just get a $50 oil change every 6k miles...(especially considering I only drive about 8k miles a year).

I guess I am also pretty spoiled in that, in addition to the 3/36 all around warranty, my car has a 10/100 on the entire powertrain. They did that for hybrids because people were so nervous about them, but they included the whole shebang, not just the hybrid parts. Yet another reason to go hybrid!

 

[iamshack]

Anyways, sorry to hijack the thread with the oil change stuff.

 

Back to buying a new car, a few more tips I have not seen posted yet:

 

1) Never buy the first year of a brand new model or a significant design/body change of an existing model.

 

2) Consider where you park the car on a regular basis.

[Texsox]

Well, Audi makes that claim all the time, as does BMW, Mercedes, and plenty of other auto manufacturers. I'm sure it's a basic guideline, but from what I have heard, the engines in these particular vehicles can more than back up the claim.

 

When an engine manufacturer claims their vehicle can go 10,000 miles between changes, what exactly are they saying happens? Are they saying that the oil will sludge up and their engine will keep going or their engine will cause the oil to last longer?

[iamshack]

I guess I am also pretty spoiled in that, in addition to the 3/36 all around warranty, my car has a 10/100 on the entire powertrain. They did that for hybrids because people were so nervous about them, but they included the whole shebang, not just the hybrid parts. Yet another reason to go hybrid!

 

Well, I bought a warranty that covers nearly everything for 3/36 (the original warranty had expired by the time I purchased the vehicle), so I guess I would probably be covered in the extent that the engine did actually explode...

 

But I absolutely love this car and intend to care for it well and drive it for a bazillion miles (I won't trade it in when I get another new car- I just love it that much).