Sexism or Racism

[SoxFan1]

I don't think the question is which is the bigger problem, but which is funnier...

[iamshack]

really? can you even pick up the brush that you just used to paint that generalization?

 

Ok, so let me ask you this question...if it is such a HUGE generalization, why do you jump down my throat about it so quickly? Within minutes of me posting that, I've got two posters jumping down my throat for making such a huge generalization...Hmm....these people would never be intolerant of another viewpoint...

 

Do you see how quickly you jumped on me just for one sentence?

 

Let's face it, people are extremely passionate about religious beliefs, and it doesn't help that many religions preach something to the effect that "those who don't participate in this religion will go to Hell." So then the followers of that religion are running around preaching intolerance because they have been ingrained with this artificial supremacy.

 

And just for your personal delight, Sox4lifeinPA, I do not fit into what you describe as a typically religious intolerant person. I've gone to Catholic schools almost my entire life. I attended an all-boys prep school where most of our instructors were members of the clergy. So the opinions I have formed over the years certainly were not formed from attending 1 or 2 Sunday school classes, being involved in a cult, or from having no substantial physical exposure to religion.

 

But it's sort of difficult to look upon a number of institutions and organizations favorably that have been either directly or indirectly responsible for so much death, devastation, misery, and outright evil that institutions of religion have throughout human history.

 

And then to have to watch so many people have the nerve to actually attempt to force their beliefs on others through pressured indoctrination or even absolute force is downright laughable to me.

 

Sorry if you don't agree, but our daily lives are filled with evidence of this nonsense on a consistent basis.

Edited February 5, 2008 by iamshack

[iamshack]

you just don't get it, do you. yes, it is ok for iamshack and people like him to bully his ideals on everyone....why? he is righteous and enlightened, he has EARNED the right to be intolerant.

 

Where are you getting this? I'm not sure how this response even came out of my post...

[mr_genius]

Where are you getting this? I'm not sure how this response even came out of my post...

 

Well, your response to "I have absolutely no problem with people who practice those religions in a way that doesn't affect, bully or harm others and their ideals." was that you think most religious people bully and harm others with their ideals.

 

sounds like intolerant stereotyping to me.

 

I don't believe in organized religion, at all, so this isn't really something that offends me. Still, I'm not going to make claims that most of them are out to bully and harm other people. Are they annoying sometimes? yea

[iamshack]

Well, your response to "I have absolutely no problem with people who practice those religions in a way that doesn't affect, bully or harm others and their ideals." was that you think most religious people bully and harm others with their ideals.

 

sounds like intolerant stereotyping to me.

 

I don't believe in organized religion, at all, so this isn't really something that offends me. Still, I'm not going to make claims that most of them are out to bully and harm other people. Are they annoying sometimes? yea

 

What does "intolerant stereotyping" mean? Is that stereotyping of people who are intolerant towards those who believe in other religions, or is that stereotyping of people who are religious as intolerant?

 

I don't mind people who go about their beliefs in a way which does not affect others. But unfortunately, as I was trying to convey in my initial post on the topic, this isn't the case nearly enough. Perhaps I should have said that rather than use the term "rarely."

[CanOfCorn]

That is very rarely the case, unfortunately...

 

In fact, I think the fanatics are the more rare case. There is a VERY LOUD majority in many religions. But, for the most part, I think people practice individually. I don't know that for sure, but I think that's more the case. And don't use a sports message board and its posters as your measuring stick.

[mr_genius]

What does "intolerant stereotyping" mean? Is that stereotyping of people who are intolerant towards those who believe in other religions, or is that stereotyping of people who are religious as intolerant?

 

I was suggesting that you, iamshack, may be intolerant. In the same sentence, I claimed you seemed to stereotype people.

Edited February 5, 2008 by mr_genius

[iamshack]

I was suggesting that you, iamshack, may be intolerant. In the same sentence, I claimed you seemed to stereotype people.

 

I'm intolerant towards what, is what I'm asking you? I am intolerant to people who are religious intolerants, or to people who are religious?

[mr_genius]

I'm intolerant towards what, is what I'm asking you? I am intolerant to people who are religious intolerants, or to people who are religious?

 

people that are religious. lol

[iamshack]

In fact, I think the fanatics are the more rare case. There is a VERY LOUD majority in many religions. But, for the most part, I think people practice individually. I don't know that for sure, but I think that's more the case. And don't use a sports message board and its posters as your measuring stick.

 

I think you're probably correct in that most people who practice religion are not running around harming other people. But there is also a lot of subconscious intolerance that occurs on a day-to-day basis, just like there is an awful lot of subconscious racism and sexism going on a day-to-day basis.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Do you see how quickly you jumped on me just for one sentence?

 

haha, and in turn, see how quickly you jumped on me for my one sentence.

[iamshack]

people that are religious. lol

 

Hah. I thought so, but this gets all so confusing...

 

I'm not intolerant towards religious people. I'm intolerant towards idiots who are behaving in an idiotic way because of their religious beliefs. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a lot of the idiots out there are behaving idiotically because of their religious beliefs.

[iamshack]

haha, and in turn, see how quickly you jumped on me for my one sentence.

 

Sure, but then again, I wasn't the one accusing you of anything, was I?

 

See how passionate people get about this? And for what?

[sox4lifeinPA]

 

Let's face it, people are extremely passionate about religious beliefs, and it doesn't help that many religions preach something to the effect that "those who don't participate in this religion will go to Hell." So then the followers of that religion are running around preaching intolerance because they have been ingrained with this artificial supremacy.

 

Let me stop you right there. This is the problem. You will never hear me or anyone that I go to church with (unless they're as uninformed about the truth as many people are) that if you don't participate in my religion you will go to Hell. Do I believe in a place called "Hell"? Yes. This is a place designated for Satan and other fallen Angels. It was never originally intended for us... And we could have a 100 page thread about all of that. The biggest problem for me is when people claim to "know" what the afterlife is like, etc. Hell, as far as I understand and have read, is not about flames and punishment as much as it is about the absence of God and Christ. Much worse in my opinion.

 

anywho...I'm tracking with you and sincerely hope we can keep this convo cool.

 

And just for your personal delight, Sox4lifeinPA,

 

please don't try to condescend me with my online name.

 

I do not fit into what you describe as a typically religious intolerant person. I've gone to Catholic schools almost my entire life. I attended an all-boys prep school where most of our instructors were members of the clergy. So the opinions I have formed over the years certainly were not formed from attending 1 or 2 Sunday school classes, being involved in a cult, or from having no substantial physical exposure to religion.

 

again, as it turns out, I was not concise in my previous post. I would place you in the Sunday school class experience of religion. Most people including myself at a point in my life, only see religion from the very lifeless perspective that Modern Western Christianity holds for people sometimes. What is religion if we have so much? What need do we have if we can instantly gratify ourselves visually, physically, etc? Especially when you put that up against a backdrop that most people think Chrisitanity is all about "rules". If that's the "truth" then of course I get why people walk away. But it's not. and I'll stop preaching, unless prompted. I do believe that people go years without seeing the truth and understanding it. This is another 100 page thread, but to sum it up. If you don't believe, you probably haven't seen the real thing, i.e., people have let down your view of the truth.

 

 

But it's sort of difficult to look upon a number of institutions and organizations favorably that have been either directly or indirectly responsible for so much death, devastation, misery, and outright evil that institutions of religion have throughout human history.

 

why stop at religious institutions? Stalin was as bad ass as they come...and 40 million people lost their lives to the anti-religion of Communism...at least. People are the problem. We're all rotten down the core when we sum it all up.

 

 

And then to have to watch so many people have the nerve to actually attempt to force their beliefs on others through pressured indoctrination or even absolute force is downright laughable to me.

 

Again, it's all about choice, and if you weren't given a chance to make a choice, then it's not Christianity. So I totally agree. I just think you're generalizing ALL true believers into the category of ALL Christians into the category of ALL religious people.

 

 

Sorry if you don't agree, but our daily lives are filled with evidence of this nonsense on a consistent basis.

 

agreed.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Sure, but then again, I wasn't the one accusing you of anything, was I?

 

See how passionate people get about this? And for what?

 

 

to learn. or at least to pass the time.

[iamshack]

Let me stop you right there. This is the problem. You will never hear me or anyone that I go to church with (unless they're as uninformed about the truth as many people are) that if you don't participate in my religion you will go to Hell. Do I believe in a place called "Hell"? Yes. This is a place designated for Satan and other fallen Angels. It was never originally intended for us... And we could have a 100 page thread about all of that. The biggest problem for me is when people claim to "know" what the afterlife is like, etc. Hell, as far as I understand and have read, is not about flames and punishment as much as it is about the absence of God and Christ. Much worse in my opinion.

 

anywho...I'm tracking with you and sincerely hope we can keep this convo cool.

please don't try to condescend me with my online name.

again, as it turns out, I was not concise in my previous post. I would place you in the Sunday school class experience of religion. Most people including myself at a point in my life, only see religion from the very lifeless perspective that Modern Western Christianity holds for people sometimes. What is religion if we have so much? What need do we have if we can instantly gratify ourselves visually, physically, etc? Especially when you put that up against a backdrop that most people think Chrisitanity is all about "rules". If that's the "truth" then of course I get why people walk away. But it's not. and I'll stop preaching, unless prompted. I do believe that people go years without seeing the truth and understanding it. This is another 100 page thread, but to sum it up. If you don't believe, you probably haven't seen the real thing, i.e., people have let down your view of the truth.

why stop at religious institutions? Stalin was as bad ass as they come...and 40 million people lost their lives to the anti-religion of Communism...at least. People are the problem. We're all rotten down the core when we sum it all up.

Again, it's all about choice, and if you weren't given a chance to make a choice, then it's not Christianity. So I totally agree. I just think you're generalizing ALL true believers into the category of ALL Christians into the category of ALL religious people.

agreed.

 

No, you may not say to me "you're going to Hell" or whatever place you want to term as the antithesis of "Heaven." But people from all sorts of religious groups absolutely have a tendency to look down upon those who do not share in their beliefs. And you need to look no further than in your post for evidence of such. You're basically telling me that there is no way to reject the beliefs of Christianity- that if I truly understood it, I would never have walked away from it.

 

Do you see that? That is where all this stems from. The belief that one cannot believe in anything other than what it is you have discovered "the truth" in.

 

Additionally, you just "placed" me into some area of religion...one that uses attending a few Sunday school classes as a metaphor for my understanding or involvement in it. No offense dude, but who the heck are you to "place" me into anything in regards to religion?

 

This is exactly the sort of subconscious elitism or superiority that occurs so often...

Edited February 5, 2008 by iamshack

[sox4lifeinPA]

No, you may not say to me "you're going to Hell" or whatever place you want to term as the antithesis of "Heaven." But people from all sorts of religious groups absolutely have a tendency to look down upon those who do not share in their beliefs. And you need to look no further than in your post for evidence of such. You're basically telling me that there is no way to reject the beliefs of Christianity- that if I truly understood it, I would never have walked away from it.

 

Do you see that? That is where all this stems from. The belief that one cannot believe in anything other than what it is you have discovered "the truth" in.

 

 

Did I say that you were beneath me because you didn't believe what I believed? I think you're inferring something I didn't write.

 

I believe that there are many misguided believers and that means there are many misguided unbelievers that come into contact with those people.

 

Nothing has been said about levels of status or value in what you believe versus what you don't believe.

[iamshack]

Did I say that you were beneath me because you didn't believe what I believed? I think you're inferring something I didn't write.

 

I believe that there are many misguided believers and that means there are many misguided unbelievers that come into contact with those people.

 

Nothing has been said about levels of status or value in what you believe versus what you don't believe.

 

You're right- and you won't come out and say that I am beneath you or that you have more value because of what each of us believe. But you'll tell me that I must have misunderstood what it is that you believe, otherwise, I would believe it too. Correct? What does that imply?

 

Secondly, since I am incapable of understanding, I will now also be incapable of doing other things subconsciously in your mind (when I say you, I mean someone resembling your beliefs, not you personally, obviously). And that relegates me to a position of inferiority in your mind and among your peers.

 

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

You're right- and you won't come out and say that I am beneath you or that you have more value because of what each of us believe. But you'll tell me that I must have misunderstood what it is that you believe, otherwise, I would believe it too. Correct? What does that imply?

 

Secondly, since I am incapable of understanding, I will now also be incapable of doing other things subconsciously in your mind (when I say you, I mean someone resembling your beliefs, not you personally, obviously). And that relegates me to a position of inferiority in your mind and among your peers.

 

 

it implies that you don't understand it. I barely understand it and I have heck of time trying to live it out everyday. it certainly doesn't mean that I think less of you.

 

 

you...you..you just don't get me!

 

 

peace on you, brother.

[YASNY]

You're right- and you won't come out and say that I am beneath you or that you have more value because of what each of us believe. But you'll tell me that I must have misunderstood what it is that you believe, otherwise, I would believe it too. Correct? What does that imply?

 

Secondly, since I am incapable of understanding, I will now also be incapable of doing other things subconsciously in your mind (when I say you, I mean someone resembling your beliefs, not you personally, obviously). And that relegates me to a position of inferiority in your mind and among your peers.

 

I'll interject this thought into this converstaion. There has been numerous occasions in my life, and several here on Soxtalk, that I have been the recipient of comments made to make me feel 'inferior' because I happen to believe in something that can't be scientifically proven to exist.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I'll interject this thought into this converstaion. There has been numerous occasions in my life, and several here on Soxtalk, that I have been the recipient of comments made to make me feel 'inferior' because I happen to believe in something that can't be scientifically proven to exist.

 

you have to admit...it is a little silly to believe in his existence...

 

[iamshack]

I'll interject this thought into this converstaion. There has been numerous occasions in my life, and several here on Soxtalk, that I have been the recipient of comments made to make me feel 'inferior' because I happen to believe in something that can't be scientifically proven to exist.

 

Yeah, that's the other side of the coin....and I think it's more a reaction to the strong feelings coming from those who are religious to those who may not be...but that's certainly a good point, nonetheless...

[iamshack]

it implies that you don't understand it. I barely understand it and I have heck of time trying to live it out everyday. it certainly doesn't mean that I think less of you.

you...you..you just don't get me!

peace on you, brother.

 

See, rather than saying I "misunderstand" what you believe in, why can't you (or other people who are religious people) say that maybe there are different ways of looking at things? Or that maybe different people can believe in different belief systems but still reach the same mental point or values? Or maybe just "to each his own"? Why does it have to be a "misunderstanding" thing? That's what really gets me...

[YASNY]

Yeah, that's the other side of the coin....and I think it's more a reaction to the strong feelings coming from those who are religious to those who may not be...but that's certainly a good point, nonetheless...

 

I don't push my beliefs down anybody's throat. When a discussion occurs, I give my viewpoints. The 'strong feelings' are just as prevelent from one side as they are the other.

[sox4lifeinPA]

See, rather than saying I "misunderstand" what you believe in, why can't you (or other people who are religious people) say that maybe there are different ways of looking at things? Or that maybe different people can believe in different belief systems but still reach the same mental point or values? Or maybe just "to each his own"? Why does it have to be a "misunderstanding" thing? That's what really gets me...

 

 

so what would you say the definition of two people not comprehending each other's ideas? ....mis...understanding?

 

 

The crux of every world religion or spiritual thought, including secular humanism, is that we, the participants, must do something, work hard or act "good", to acheive something (nirvana, enlightenment, a high five). Every last one, except Chrisitianity.

 

so to say that people misunderstand things doesn't mean I think less of you, like it's some game that puts one person over another. It just means that throughout our days on earth we learn and understand (hopefully) more and more, but there is so much misinformation and false teaching that sometimes it's hard to see the real truth. Everyone is on a journey, and my only desire for you or any person is to never stop seeking what is at the center of why you believe so fiercly one way or another.

 

like I said, peace on you. Good luck.