Now that Santana is Traded To The Mets/ Go for Crisp

[almagest]

In 2006 Brian Anderson saved at least one game that really mattered against the Indians with this glove. If he is in center and Swisher in left we will be a good team. If Owens or Swisher are in center we will be average. The affect on pitching as a result of bad defense is never really discussed. Aaron Rowand and Scott Podsednik cost Bobby Jenks a save in the World Series thus allowing a walk-off that never should happened.

 

Now you're going in the exact opposite direction, and evaluating defense as more important than offense. Swisher would have to be absolutely terrible defensively in CF to make up for the offensive difference between him and Anderson, unless Anderson miraculously turns it all around.

[Vance Law]

Perhaps I should explain myself. Though I used a finite example, I was doing so to make a broader point.

 

Sure, I get what you're saying. My point, simplified, would be something like, in my estimation for every double Owens saves, Swisher has hit 2 doubles, or something like that.

 

[Balta1701]

Now you're going in the exact opposite direction, and evaluating defense as more important than offense. Swisher would have to be absolutely terrible defensively in CF to make up for the offensive difference between him and Anderson, unless Anderson miraculously turns it all around.

Since we haven't seen Swisher out there, it is honestly entirely possible he could be that bad. In 06, Mackowiak basically seemed to cost us 1+ runs per game when in CF, whether the stats show it or not. Every time he was out there a ball went over his head and a run scored, or he misplayed a ball and a run scored. If Swisher's at that level, then he needs to move back to 1b or a corner position somehow, and we'll need a glove out there. It would really be nice if BA could turn things around with the bat and be that glove, but God only knows at this point.

 

I think the fact is, we won't really know until we see how Swisher performs in CF to start the year, how Quentin performs in LF while we're at it, and how BA performs with the bat in ST and at AAA when that season starts.

[Kalapse]

Sure, I get what you're saying. My point, simplified, would be something like, in my estimation for every double Owens saves, Swisher has hit 2 doubles, or something like that.

Owens' puss arm in CF is also going to allow the baserunner to take the extra base on balls hit softly into the gap turning some singles into doubles. Swisher on the other hand has a strong throwing arm and should be able to hold the runner to 1 bag.

[Kalapse]

Since we haven't seen Swisher out there, it is honestly entirely possible he could be that bad. In 06, Mackowiak basically seemed to cost us 1+ runs per game when in CF, whether the stats show it or not. Every time he was out there a ball went over his head and a run scored, or he misplayed a ball and a run scored. If Swisher's at that level, then he needs to move back to 1b or a corner position somehow, and we'll need a glove out there. It would really be nice if BA could turn things around with the bat and be that glove, but God only knows at this point.

 

I think the fact is, we won't really know until we see how Swisher performs in CF to start the year, how Quentin performs in LF while we're at it, and how BA performs with the bat in ST and at AAA when that season starts.

I've been watching A's games from last year on MLB.tv just to see Swisher play CF and after watching about 15 games (only the innings where the A's are on defense) I can say with near certainty that Nick is nowhere near as bad as Mackowiak or Everett. He just looks average to me which is good enough.

 

Just once I'd love to hear Ozzie hint at moving JD to left field, it's the best thing for everyone involved.

[YASNY]

I've been watching A's games from last year on MLB.tv just to see Swisher play CF and after watching about 15 games (only the innings where the A's are on defense) I can say with near certainty that Nick is nowhere near as bad as Mackowiak or Everett. He just looks average to me which is good enough.

 

Just once I'd love to hear Ozzie hint at moving JD to left field, it's the best thing for everyone involved.

 

Agreed. If Quentin has the arm I've heard he has, even more so.

[Harry Chappas]

Now you're going in the exact opposite direction, and evaluating defense as more important than offense. Swisher would have to be absolutely terrible defensively in CF to make up for the offensive difference between him and Anderson, unless Anderson miraculously turns it all around.

 

I believe defense is more important than offense because of the impact on pitching. The comparison of players is Anderson v. Owens/Quintin and the result of Cabrerra leading off v. Owens. Swisher moves to left with Anderson in center.

 

In the day and age of finite pitch counts for a game, hits that are not taken away and errors that are made create stress on pitchers and more importantyl reduce the length with which they are in game. One error and two plays that are not made are an extra inning of work and possibly 15 pitches.

 

 

[YASNY]

I believe defense is more important than offense because of the impact on pitching. The comparison of players is Anderson v. Owens/Quintin and the result of Cabrerra leading off v. Owens. Swisher moves to left with Anderson in center.

 

In the day and age of finite pitch counts for a game, hits that are not taken away and errors that are made create stress on pitchers and more importantyl reduce the length with which they are in game. One error and two plays that are not made are an extra inning of work and possibly 15 pitches.

 

Considering the fact that as a general rule your starters are the best pitchers, you want them to get the most innings or outs, and if a shoddy defense gives away two or three a game, that limits the effectiveness of your starters (again, best pitchers) and puts more stress on your bullpen (weaker) pitchers. In fact, that's massive.

[max power]

Agreed. If Quentin has the arm I've heard he has, even more so.

Why is right really that much harder/more important to play than left?

[YASNY]

Why is right really that much harder/more important to play than left?

 

It's all about the arm. Holding runners from getting from 1st to 3rd on a single. Covering ground fits into that equation as well. If you are slower getting to the ball, the opposition knows to try and get to 3rd on that single to right.

[Pants Rowland]

Why is right really that much harder/more important to play than left?

 

The need for a strong arm is magnified in RF to keep runners, especially those at 2nd and 3rd, honest. RF can control the running game of a lot of teams if his arm is strong. With third base right there, or the catcher already in position to make a tag, the arm of a LF is less of a factor. A strong arm is a bonus in CF, but typically covering a lot of ground is the bigger need in the middle of the outfield.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Pants Rowland

[max power]

Oh I see. Makes sense.

[ptatc]

It's all about the arm. Holding runners from getting from 1st to 3rd on a single. Covering ground fits into that equation as well. If you are slower getting to the ball, the opposition knows to try and get to 3rd on that single to right.

 

While this is true, I think people get far too caught up in the arm strength and throwing runners out. The more important aspect is running down and catching the ball. RF is generally more difficult to play a ball because with more RH hitters the "slicing" ball is more difficult to judge than the more straight trajectory hit "pulling" the ball to left.

 

There are many more chances to catch (or miss) the ball than "holding runners."

 

[YASNY]

While this is true, I think people get far too caught up in the arm strength and throwing runners out. The more important aspect is running down and catching the ball. RF is generally more difficult to play a ball because with more RH hitters the "slicing" ball is more difficult to judge than the more straight trajectory hit "pulling" the ball to left.

 

There are many more chances to catch (or miss) the ball than "holding runners."

 

Your point is well taken here on the 'slicing' thing. But my point was more about the threat of a runner getting thrown out than actual number times it occurs. If you a have right fielder that can cover ground and throw well, they have a tendency to stop instead of go. And that, perhaps more importantly, effects the runners trying for home as well as the runners heading to third.

[Dick Allen]

While this is true, I think people get far too caught up in the arm strength and throwing runners out. The more important aspect is running down and catching the ball. RF is generally more difficult to play a ball because with more RH hitters the "slicing" ball is more difficult to judge than the more straight trajectory hit "pulling" the ball to left.

 

There are many more chances to catch (or miss) the ball than "holding runners."

While a ball slices if its hit down the line and hit a certain way, the same thing happens down the LF line with LH hitters and RH hitters the ball will hook. The reason RF is more difficult in general, obviously ballpark configuration and sun and wind can change this, is the throws. Very rarely does a LF have to throw the ball to 1B. The throw to 3rd is a lot more difficult from RF. Besides, anyone who has played the OF regularly will have figured out "slices and hooks" especially major leaguers. If that's difficult for them, they shouldn't be out there.

[YASNY]

While a ball slices if its hit down the line and hit a certain way, the same thing happens down the LF line with LH hitters and RH hitters the ball will hook. The reason RF is more difficult in general, obviously ballpark configuration and sun and wind can change this, is the throws. Very rarely does a LF have to throw the ball to 1B. The throw to 3rd is a lot more difficult from RF. Besides, anyone who has played the OF regularly will have figured out "slices and hooks" especially major leaguers. If that's difficult for them, they shouldn't be out there.

 

Why does Ross Gload come to mind?

[ptatc]

While a ball slices if its hit down the line and hit a certain way, the same thing happens down the LF line with LH hitters and RH hitters the ball will hook. The reason RF is more difficult in general, obviously ballpark configuration and sun and wind can change this, is the throws. Very rarely does a LF have to throw the ball to 1B. The throw to 3rd is a lot more difficult from RF. Besides, anyone who has played the OF regularly will have figured out "slices and hooks" especially major leaguers. If that's difficult for them, they shouldn't be out there.

 

I disagree. The better outfielders can figure this out but not all of them. The harder the ball is hit the less hook or slice it will have. Think about a curve ball vs. a slider. The harder thrown ball (slider) will break less. In the outfield the same concept applies. The harder its hit, usually the pulled ball, the less it will move. The slicing ball will move more.

 

There are many games where the outfielder took "the wrong route" to the ball. It happens almost every game. It's not because the didn't see it, it's because they read it wrong. This happens all of the time. when you watch games. It's alot more difficult than most people think because of how hard the ball is hit.

[Dick Allen]

I disagree. The better outfielders can figure this out but not all of them. The harder the ball is hit the less hook or slice it will have. Think about a curve ball vs. a slider. The harder thrown ball (slider) will break less. In the outfield the same concept applies. The harder its hit, usually the pulled ball, the less it will move. The slicing ball will move more.

 

There are many games where the outfielder took "the wrong route" to the ball. It happens almost every game. It's not because the didn't see it, it's because they read it wrong. This happens all of the time. when you watch games. It's alot more difficult than most people think because of how hard the ball is hit.

I played the OF for several years. Usually in CF, but I did play RF and a couple in LF. Major leaguers should not have problems with that. Balls hit right at them, or knuckling, perhaps, but slices and hooks aren't difficult to judge. If they are having problems with that, I will say they shouldn't be getting paid millions of dollars to be out there, and obviously there are quite a few guys who are not good outfielders, but because the are fast they get away with it, or because they hit well, their lack of defense is tolerated. IMO, just because a ball may slice off a RH hitters bat to RF, isn't the reason its generally considered tougher to play than LF. Its the throws. OFs throw the ball to 2nd,3rd and home. The RF has it a lot harder than the LF in that department.

[ptatc]

I played the OF for several years. Usually in CF, but I did play RF and a couple in LF. Major leaguers should not have problems with that. Balls hit right at them, or knuckling, perhaps, but slices and hooks aren't difficult to judge. If they are having problems with that, I will say they shouldn't be getting paid millions of dollars to be out there, and obviously there are quite a few guys who are not good outfielders, but because the are fast they get away with it, or because they hit well, their lack of defense is tolerated. IMO, just because a ball may slice off a RH hitters bat to RF, isn't the reason its generally considered tougher to play than LF. Its the throws. OFs throw the ball to 2nd,3rd and home. The RF has it a lot harder than the LF in that department.

 

Ok, we can disagree then. My experience with working in the minors and MLB was that many players have trouble reading the ball off the bat and take poor routes. Not the best ones of course but many of them did. The ones hit right at them make them look the silliest and are the toughest.

[GreenSox]

If we wanted Crisp, we shouldn't have traded for Quentin.

But we did, so that's that. Can't keep throwing more resources at essentially the same thing.

Crisp brings nothing above average other than defense, and I think the Sox made their position on CF defense known when they benched the best defensive CF the team's had in a decade for Rob Mack and then for Erstad.

[Steve9347]

FYI, Steve Stone on 670 just said that he had a discussion with Reinsdorf yesterday and suggested the White Sox definitely make a move for Crisp.

[G&T]

FYI, Steve Stone on 670 just said that he had a discussion with Reinsdorf yesterday and suggested the White Sox definitely make a move for Crisp.

 

Just to clarify, you mean "will make" correct? Or do you mean that Stone thinks the Sox need to make a move for Crisp?

[Vance Law]

If we wanted Crisp, we shouldn't have wanted Crisp.

fixed

[Steve9347]

Just to clarify, you mean "will make" correct? Or do you mean that Stone thinks the Sox need to make a move for Crisp?

No, I mean he had a conversation with Reinsdorf and suggested the Sox make a move for Crisp. He told Reinsdorf that Crisp would be invaluable as a true CF who can defend well and is a likely bounce-back candidate.

[iamshack]

No, I mean he had a conversation with Reinsdorf and suggested the Sox make a move for Crisp. He told Reinsdorf that Crisp would be invaluable as a true CF who can defend well and is a likely bounce-back candidate.

 

Not that I am disappointed in this, but since when has Stone become a "consultant" to Jerry Reinsdorf as opposed to a part-time broadcaster?