Leadoff and two hole predicament...

[Balta1701]

Qwerty do u really believe O-Cab would be better suited as a 8 or 9 hole hitter honestly? How do you figure? Cabrera hit over 300 last year with over 600 ABs in the 2 slot, granted his OBP I believe was somewhere around .350 but this kid is the ideal 2 hole hitter for this ball club....

Unfortunately, the problem isn't that he's not an ideal 2 hole hitter...he certainly is. Good bat control, decent speed, just kinda fits that role well. The problem is we don't have an obvious person to hit in front of him, and it seems to make more sense to go Cabrera/Swisher than it does Swisher/Cabrera, because Swisher would be expected to put up better power numbers and you kinda want that guy with a chance hitting in front of Thome and with a chance to have someone on base in front of him.

 

I still think it's possible something will work out where Owens gets a decent chunk of AB's and actually gives us a .350ish OBP and solves this problem for a bunch of games, but the problem with that is we have no where to play him right now.

[peanut33tillman]

Unfortunately, the problem isn't that he's not an ideal 2 hole hitter...he certainly is. Good bat control, decent speed, just kinda fits that role well. The problem is we don't have an obvious person to hit in front of him, and it seems to make more sense to go Cabrera/Swisher than it does Swisher/Cabrera, because Swisher would be expected to put up better power numbers and you kinda want that guy with a chance hitting in front of Thome and with a chance to have someone on base in front of him.

 

I still think it's possible something will work out where Owens gets a decent chunk of AB's and actually gives us a .350ish OBP and solves this problem for a bunch of games, but the problem with that is we have no where to play him right now.

 

Oh yea and i can absolutely agree with that, if O-Cab isnt hitting 2 hole he should be our leadoff man with Swish hitting second, assuming Quentin starts over Owens in LF, but to hit him in the 8 hole I think is a little crazy, but JMO...

[flavum]

Could still be Coco Crisp.

 

vs. Right

Crisp-CF

Cabrera-SS

Thome-DH

Konerko-1B

Dye-RF

Swisher-LF

Fields-3B

Pierzynski-C

Richar-2B

 

Bench--Quentin, Hall, Owens, Ramirez

 

Ozuna? Why do they need him if Ramirez is the same player only younger and better? That could be interesting in spring training. Uribe and Crede will be traded.

 

vs. Left

Crisp-CF

Cabrera-SS

Swisher-LF

Konerko-1B

Dye-DH

Fields-3B

Quentin-RF

Pierzynski-C

Ramirez-2B

 

Bench-Thome, Hall, Richar, Owens

 

Thome has been awful against lefties. These are good games to sit him 80% of the time.

[Kalapse]

I fully agree, the worst hitter ( if not the worst one of them) should be the one with the most chances to make an out, fully.

Given the current personnel how would you arrange the pieces? Unless, of course, we're aloud to use imaginary players then I might have something for you.

 

Optimized:

 

Swisher - Thome - Pierzynski - Dye - Konerko - Fields - Quentin - Richar - Cabrera

[RockRaines]

I think another player will be acquired before the season starts that can leadoff. Probably not Roberts.

My money is on Ray Ray, which sucks.

[Rowand44]

With what we have now, I'm perfectly fine with OCab and Swisher as the 1-2.

[DBAHO]

An Owens / Ozuna platoon could probably give you an adequate enough production from the leadoff spot (if Owens could get a .350-.360 OBP against RHH's).

 

But unless you're going to bench Quentin, there's no spot for that with the addition of Swisher.

 

My hope is Cabrera's offensive numbers rise enough moving to the Cell to give him say a .340 OBP, and I think that may be good enough.

 

Swisher COULD leadoff, as other hitters with low averages such as Brad Wilkerson have done it before, but ideally you want him at #2 or #3 in the order.

 

Hence why I think if a trade's made it could be for a 2B, although I think Richar is capable of having a pretty decent OPS, the Sox may not give him that chance to show it.

 

If they could acquire a Figgins, a Roberts etc. they'd do it. The problem is, they really don't have much less to deal. A few relievers, Joe Crede, a couple of spects but not much.

[santo=dorf]

Perhaps we shouldn't have traded our #3 starter for a slick fielding, light hitting shortstop when we already had a cheaper one on the roster.

[qwerty]

Qwerty do u really believe O-Cab would be better suited as a 8 or 9 hole hitter honestly? How do you figure? Cabrera hit over 300 last year with over 600 ABs in the 2 slot, granted his OBP I believe was somewhere around .350 but this kid is the ideal 2 hole hitter for this ball club....

Yes, that is why i said it i believe. His last two seasons are his best back to back seasons of his career offensively. There is not the best track record that would show me he is consistent enough for that to be his permanent role. Do people really not know who cabrera is? Basically his seasons offensively goes like this, decent, awful, , atrocious, meh he didn't suck, oh s*** what do you know? He sucked thhe next season too. No one has a clue what we will get out of the guy, and even his peak is nothing to get excited about. The sox do not have tiny holes to fill to the point it didn't matter. The less talent on the team, the more perfectly rounded a team has to be. If something small of off kilter, that is when teams become exposed. Like it or not the yankees have more overall talent than basically any team year in year out... doesn't matter how old they are or how much they make. Do they make the playoffs every year? Practically. Do they win it all? Not recently cecause their talent has not been spread out evenly, and they get exposed easily. They could have 5 johan santana's but if they have nine scott podsednik's in line-up it wouldn't matter. Balance is what makes any team.

 

This is what I posted in the original Swisher thread, I stand by it:

 

Only way i can see the line-up being constructed.

 

Unfortunately, the problem isn't that he's not an ideal 2 hole hitter...he certainly is. Good bat control, decent speed, just kinda fits that role well. The problem is we don't have an obvious person to hit in front of him, and it seems to make more sense to go Cabrera/Swisher than it does Swisher/Cabrera, because Swisher would be expected to put up better power numbers and you kinda want that guy with a chance hitting in front of Thome and with a chance to have someone on base in front of him.

 

I still think it's possible something will work out where Owens gets a decent chunk of AB's and actually gives us a .350ish OBP and solves this problem for a bunch of games, but the problem with that is we have no where to play him right now.

 

Ideal two hole hitters? Well, vidro, renteria, young, jeter, hell even randy winn is even. I just wish there was a better option.

 

Oh yea and i can absolutely agree with that, if O-Cab isnt hitting 2 hole he should be our leadoff man with Swish hitting second, assuming Quentin starts over Owens in LF, but to hit him in the 8 hole I think is a little crazy, but JMO...

 

Can only hope he is leading off, if not get ready for a long season.

 

 

Given the current personnel how would you arrange the pieces? Unless, of course, we're aloud to use imaginary players then I might have something for you.

 

Optimized:

 

Swisher - Thome - Pierzynski - Dye - Konerko - Fields - Quentin - Richar - Cabrera

 

...

Edited January 31, 2008 by qwerty

[ScottyDo]

okay this mythical "lead-off hitter" that people keep referring to? there are maybe 6 or 7 players like that in the entire baseball realm. what you want is someone with a perfect blend of walk-drawing, pitch-taking, slap hitting, speed, BUT no power. Under the arguments stated here, power would be wasted in the leadoff spot. That's a lot of caveats to put on one spot in the order, and it's a little ridiculous to blast the GM for not landing one of these 6 or 7 guys. If Ichiro Suzukis were everywhere, i'm sure we'd have one. Sadly, he's an anomaly and there are very few players like that.

 

so what move were you suggesting kenny make? coco crisp? going by the last few years, he doesn't fit your criteria. juan pierre? he doesn't either. not enough OBP. the pieces just are not available, nor are they predictable (see: podsednik '05->'06). plenty of good offensive teams make due with leadoff hitters that aren't exactly "ideal" according to the precedents set forth. so i ask you, with what we have, why NOT cabrera or swisher leading off?

 

*EDIT: I should correct myself, the parameters for a leadoff hitter state SOME power, not NO power. that narrows the list of candidates down even more.*

Edited January 31, 2008 by ScottyDo

[buckweaver]

I agree with ScottyDo. It's unfair to expect a proven all-star at every position. Two years ago, Detroit made it to the World Series because Curtis Granderson emerged as the kind of player everyone is touting (and Arizona to the NLCS last year because Chris Young emerged). Going into the '06 season, Granderson was battling for playing time with Nook Logan, got the nod when both had outstanding spring trainings, and blossomed into a near-superstar. Anyone pick the Tigers to win the AL in '06?

 

To me, the only guy out there to possibly provide a known quantity that's near what we'd like is Kenny Lofton. But signing him takes playing time from Owens and Quentin. We have three guys (Owens, Richar and Ramirez) with legitimate shots to become the '08 Sox version of the '06 Curtis Granderson. We have another possibility in Brian Anderson, if his own surfer aloofness hasn't already exiled him from the organization. The White Sox are going to be a good team. Good enough? We'll see. It sure wouldn't hurt if A-Wad popped his achilles in Spring Training and the Yankees has to give us Hughes or Chamberlain for Crede. But I'm looking forward to seeing which young guy makes a name for himself. If one does, and the rest of the team plays up to par, we'll look to fill that other hole in mid-late June.