What is a bleeding heart liberal?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Originally posted by cwsox

 

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Originally posted by cwsox 

anyone who speaks of Oscar Romero, Ita Ford, and by inlucison, Maura Clark, Jean Donovan, and Dorothy Kazel, is someone that I will listen to for that person has much to teach and share. 

 

 

 

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cubkilla responded:

 

Bulls***. Then share your ideas on how to deal with a Osama Bin Laden. Or Saddam Hussein. Those that advocate force have been asking all the leftists on this board for months now for their ideas on how Bush and the US should handle this situation. All we get are more f***ing links to liberal, sometimes borderline Socialist, garbage. Being moderate in my political views, I wish the whole Middle East crisis and the War on Terrorism could be settled with all sides sitting down and hammering out an agreement that all sides could agree on. BUT THAT ISN'T GOING TO f***ING HAPPEN..... NOT TODAY, NOT TOMORROW, NOT ANYDAY!!!!! What the Romero's, Fords, et al had in common is that they just couldn't come to the revelation that some people..... your Bin Laden's, Husseins, Islamic Fundamentalists, etc..... don't understand anything but violence. 

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and my response: Cubkilla, I met you at a game and/or SoxFest and thought you were cool and hope we meet again and party a bit with our mutual friends.

 

However, your response indicates basic (total) lack of knowledge what you are talking about here.  Ita Ford, Maura Clark, Jean Donovan, and Dorothy Kazel were three nuns and a Roman Catholic lay worker who were raped and killed on 2 December 1980 by the forces of Savlador's Roberto d'Aubbisson (spelling), who was backed by the US in the late 1970s and early 1980s.  Archbishop Oscar Romero, killed during mass as he elevated the bread and wine, on 24 March 1980, was killed by the same forces.  What you say is ill-informed here at best, and frankly, extremely offensive due to the nature of the deaths of these five Christian witnesses to social justice in Salvador, which has nothing to do with bin Ladin and Hussein.

 

And given that you are prone to outrageous and uninformed bursts of ranting to support your position, then I can easily evaluate the rest of your thinking here, which is, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

And there it is.

 

I sure do hope that these differences aside, when we meet again we can not deal with these things and enjoy our mutual friends and the joy of cheering for the Sox.  I prefer to meet with friends over things that unite us, not divide us.

 

THESE KILLINGS YOU TALKED ABOUT HAPPENED 20+ YEARS AGO. I THINK YOU LEFTISTS NEED TO FIND YOURELVES A NEW MARTYR. HOWS ABOUT WE HAVE A BIG BAD S.O.A. GRAD CHOP OFF JANE FONDAS HEAD IN PUBLIC SO YOU WILL HAVE SOMETHING NEW TO WHINE ABOUT.

[doubleM23]

Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND

YOU SAY AMERICA MAKES YOU SICK TO YOUR STOMACH AND YOU ARE NOT PROUD TO BE ONE OF ITS CITIZENS BUT YOU SURE WILL REAP ITS BENEFITS.  YOU CONTRIBUTE NOTHING TO THIS COUNTRY BUT YOU TAKE ITS BENEFITS AND THEN TURN AROUND AND TRASH IT WHENEVER AND WHEREVER YOU CAN. YOU WONT EVER HAVE ANY CREDIBILITY WITH ME UNLESS YOU EITHER SHOW SOME INTEGRITY & LEAVE THE COUNTRY YOU HATE SO MUCH OR LAY OFF THE CONSTANT AMERICA-BASHING.

 

Ah, yes... The most anti-American statement of them all... "Love it or leave it."

[SI1020]

Originally posted by sideshowapu

Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND

Originally posted by sideshowapu

Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND

 

 

I MADE MY POINT ABOUT THIS ALREADY.  YOU USE THE CONVIENENT FACT THAT A SMALL NUMBER OF SOUTH AMERICAN MILITARY PERSONNEL WE TRAINED MISUSED THEIR TRAINING & KILLED INNOCENTS AS A COVER FOR LOBBYING FOR THE DISMANTLING OF A SCHOOL THAT TRAINS OUR FRIENDS DOWN SOUTH TO FIGHT COMMUNISTS.  YOU DONT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE AT ALL.  YOU WANT US TO STOP TRAINING THOSE PEOPLE TO KICK THE ASS OF YOUR MARXIST PALS DOWN THERE.

 

A small handful, Nuke?

Maybe you'd like to look at the numbers:

* 2/3 of the Columbian military has been indicted for human rights violations (torture and murder of small children, labor activists, church workers) and they were SOA graduates.

* Colonel Uribe of Columbia, an SOA grad, is one of the most notorious human rights abusers authorizing the fumagation to crops of people opposing military dictatorships along with numerous kidnappings and murders that have taken place in Columbia.

* Hugo Banzer Suarez of Bolivia who privatized the water supply so over 70% of the people couldn't afford water. When they peacefully protested, he assigned snipers and the military to kill protesters.

* 20 out of the 26 officers indicted for the EL Mazote massacre of 900 villagers (over 1/2 under age 12...tell me again how those are Marxist rebels Nuke...I'd like to hear your explanation)

* the Jesuit massacre of 6 Jesuit priests, their housekeeper and the housekeeper's daughter (trained by the US...the Atacotl battallion was the responsible party and had just come back 24 hrs. fresh from US training when they did this)...tell me Nuke, was the housekeeper's daughter a communist fighter also? a teenage girl?!

 

Nuke, if you actually believe that we're killing leftist guerrillas, for the most part you're absolutely incorrect. In Columbia, for example, the paramilitaries are responsible for over 90% of the human rights violations occuring there according to Amnesty International.

Yes, groups like the FARQ are minority groups when coming to having any power in committing any sort of human rights abuses. They are nowhere near as prolific in the murder of innocents as SOA graduates are.

 

The SOA has caused the death of thousands of victims throughout Central and South America. If you believe it is Marxist that the people be able to democratically elect their government, that they can live without fear of being "disappeared" for being a labor activist for shorter hours and higher wages, if they want enough money to feed their family and have a basic life...Peasants should be able to farm their land without corporations like United Fruit owning over 1/2 their country. They peacefully try to buy it back at the same price UF was buying. UF's response? Send in the Marine Corps to decimate the farmers.

 

Nuke, people are dying. Churchwomen, lay people, farmers, innocent little f***ing kids! I could give two pieces of monkey s*** about their politics...nobody should have to worry about being murdered, kidnapped or disappeared for standing up against military oppression or fighting for basic human rights and dignity!

 

 

YOU GET YOUR STATS FROM AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL. THERES A REALLY CREDIBLE f***ING SOURCE. THATS THE SAME BUNCH OF IDIOTS THAT YELL THE SKY IS FALLING EVERY TIME SOME CRIMINAL GETS EXECUTED. WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SORT OF THING THESE ASSHOLES MAKE CHICKEN LITTLE LOOK LEVEL HEADED.

 

Wow, who would expect Nuke to use *data* or *facts* to back up his claims?? Show me the data that makes the US government not responsible for the training and usage of that training in Central and South America, Nuke.

 

Since you brought up capital punishment, show me that cap. punishment is even a deterrant to crime. I'd really like to see that data, Nukey Nuke.

I have tried real real real hard to stay out of this. As usual there are a bunch of historical inaccuracies here. Regarding capital punishment, I would suggest anyone who wants to educate themselves on this matter read Rodger Lane's great criminological book Murder in America. It is about far more than the title, it gives a history of crime dating back to the Middle Ages, which had a very high violent crime rate. In any case, it very effectively if subtly makes the case that capital punishment helped greatly reduce violent crime rates in Western Nations from the Renaissance to the late 19th Century. Capital punishment is a very touchy subject and there are many intelligent debaters on both sides of this issue. I would suggest to all of you though, if a close member of your family or someone close to you is murdered in cold blood it entirely changes your perspective on the matter. There is no "healing process" or "closure" in such matters. I hate those phony cliches!!! The pain lasts a lifetime and only thorugh a deep kind of faith is one able to "cope" with such a loss. Regarding the Latin American controversy on this thread. The US is in a difficult position here. These nations are our neighbors, and what happens to them greatly affects us. Unfortunately most of these countries have never risen above political and social barbarism. I know this is not politically correct but it is true nonetheless. There are very few "good guys" in that part of the world. The US has a right and a duty to look out for its own interests. Unfortunately this part of the world is very chaotic and unpristine. There have been many atrocities committed by the "right" in Central and South America. There is no getting around that fact. However, the left is not composed of "choir" boys and girls either. It is hard for me to imagine a more violent political group than the leftist "Shining Path" of Peru. Believe me, Osama Bin Laden is a "moderate" compared to these guys. Who tamed them? Alberto Fujimori who turned out to be as corrupt as the next Latin American leader. See what I mean? There are no "good guys" in that part of the world. Fujimori "saved" his nation from total chaos, but was unable due to his own personal weakness and the general decadent political climate in that part of the world to take his nation on to the next step. The best thing that could happen to Latin America is a sustained economic boom, the kind the US had from 1946-1973. Slowly, but surely then the political and social problems will take care of themselves.

[Chisoxfn]

Also, don't forget the power Legalism had on Chinese Society. It started during the Ch'in dynasty and pretty much brought an end to most crime. I'm just jumping on near the end of this subject. I, like SI, have tried to keep my nose out of this one.

 

Legalism consists of not only executing the people, but publicly doing it and making them suffer as much as they can. China executes more people in one day then the entire US does in a full year and possibly even the entire world(not sure on this one).

[CubKilla]

Originally posted by cwsox

 

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Originally posted by cwsox 

anyone who speaks of Oscar Romero, Ita Ford, and by inlucison, Maura Clark, Jean Donovan, and Dorothy Kazel, is someone that I will listen to for that person has much to teach and share. 

 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

cubkilla responded:

 

Bulls***. Then share your ideas on how to deal with a Osama Bin Laden. Or Saddam Hussein. Those that advocate force have been asking all the leftists on this board for months now for their ideas on how Bush and the US should handle this situation. All we get are more f***ing links to liberal, sometimes borderline Socialist, garbage. Being moderate in my political views, I wish the whole Middle East crisis and the War on Terrorism could be settled with all sides sitting down and hammering out an agreement that all sides could agree on. BUT THAT ISN'T GOING TO f***ING HAPPEN..... NOT TODAY, NOT TOMORROW, NOT ANYDAY!!!!! What the Romero's, Fords, et al had in common is that they just couldn't come to the revelation that some people..... your Bin Laden's, Husseins, Islamic Fundamentalists, etc..... don't understand anything but violence. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

and my response: Cubkilla, I met you at a game and/or SoxFest and thought you were cool and hope we meet again and party a bit with our mutual friends.

 

However, your response indicates basic (total) lack of knowledge what you are talking about here.  Ita Ford, Maura Clark, Jean Donovan, and Dorothy Kazel were three nuns and a Roman Catholic lay worker who were raped and killed on 2 December 1980 by the forces of Savlador's Roberto d'Aubbisson (spelling), who was backed by the US in the late 1970s and early 1980s.  Archbishop Oscar Romero, killed during mass as he elevated the bread and wine, on 24 March 1980, was killed by the same forces.  What you say is ill-informed here at best, and frankly, extremely offensive due to the nature of the deaths of these five Christian witnesses to social justice in Salvador, which has nothing to do with bin Ladin and Hussein.

 

And given that you are prone to outrageous and uninformed bursts of ranting to support your position, then I can easily evaluate the rest of your thinking here, which is, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

And there it is.

 

I sure do hope that these differences aside, when we meet again we can not deal with these things and enjoy our mutual friends and the joy of cheering for the Sox.  I prefer to meet with friends over things that unite us, not divide us.

 

First off, I don't know how a one word answer..... "bulls***"..... "indicates basic (total) lack of knowledge what am talking about here." My point wasn't that there is nothing that we can learn from these people. My point was that these people devoted their lives to fighting social and political injustice only to be brutally raped (Ford, Donovan, Clark, and Kazel) and/or killed (Romero) fighting for social change with a group of people that understood nothing but violence. I am familiar with the Archbishop Romero (I even saw the movie starring Raul Julia) and what he tried to accomplish in El Salvador. My point was there is a subset of the human population that understand only violence. Violence is how this subset achieves an end. Consequently, nothing these four martyrs "could teach or share" could be used to achieve a peaceful end with a Bin Laden or Hussein. And in response to Apu's assertion that we should look at ourselves for blame after 09/11 because of US policy towards Iraq (and other Middle Eastern nations) and the sanctions that the WORLD agreed upon to after Operation: DESERT STORM..... What the US and the WORLD did was purely diplomatic and political after a dictator forced himself and his citizens to the resulting world they currently live in after an aggressive and VIOLENT occupation of a neighboring country to which Hussein thought he had historic claim to. The US didn't intentionally target civilian targets (WTC) to achieve a means to an end. And before you repeat the oft asked question, "What does 09/11 have to do with Iraq?" Ask Bin Laden as he has mentioned DESERT STORM in countless audio and videotapes as an affront against Islam perpetrated by the zionist states of the US and Israel. Instead of displacing blame from the Bin Laden's and Hussein's of the world for 09/11, perhaps your leftist ideologies would be more readily accepted if you were to fight for women's rights in countries where women are treated like dogs by the same men that deify Bin Laden. These countries and their leaders that you defend use:

 

Violence to achieve a political end;

Violence to punish criminals;

Violence (threatened albeit) to support the fanatical

whims of a dictator;

Violence to promote social ends (i.e., Husseins 100% "re-

election vote);

Violence against women.....

 

 

See a trend here Apu? This is where the real social injustices lie. Not the US.

[cwsox]

cubkilla, as I read the repititions of the posts, this phrase caught my eye: "And given that you are prone to outrageous and uninformed bursts of ranting to support your position, then I can easily evaluate the rest of your thinking here, which is, you don't have a clue what you are talking about."

 

And I went back and checked, and I had indeed posted that.

 

I didn't mean to posyt that, I had several things in my mind and that wasn't meant for you and I thought I had edited that out. I didn't and I apologise.

 

As for the rest, I disagree with you on much of what you say.

 

I hope you see more movies.

[CubKilla]

Originally posted by cwsox

 

As for the rest, I disagree with you on much of what you say.

 

 

 

That right there is what makes this country great..... that me and you can agree to disagree. However, some on this board take for granted some of the freedoms we enjoy as Americans. They talk of our prosperity and work ethic as something that we should be ashamed of because most of the world sees us as the cocky, arrogant Americans. They fail to realize that we are able to have these discussions because, very unfortunately I might add, thousands of men and women have died defending what is good about this country. They tend to nitpick on the unjustices found in U.S. policy and make us out to be the bad guys..... always failing to realize that the policy was created after a violent incursion by a country or dictator. Right before sanctions are imposed, they're against the use of violence to achieve a means to an end. But when the U.S. enforces the sanctions (and that is what the potential War with Iraq is about..... NOT oil) we're the bad guys because of our threatened use of force. Their arguments don't make sense and reek of hypocrisy. If they think this country is so bad, I say go somewhere where the men roll over like sheep when a war machine comes marching through. Somewhere where the thinking is more in tune with hating the dirty Americans. May I suggest France? :mad:

[cwsox]

If the freedom to disagree is so valued in America by you, as opposed to your thinking that everyone must agree with you, why do suggest that I hate this country and should leave it?

 

For your suggestion that I hate this country, or that anyone who differs from your opinions must hate this country, I respond sir that your opinions are not the sole defining ones of who loves this country.

 

And as for your suggestion that I leave this country, that is not worthy of any response.

 

Your mindset hardly reflects that of the United States and all that makes this country what it is, and has a lot more in common with a dictatorship and a tyrant.

 

It would appear the sole differance between Sadaam Hussein and yourself is that he holds power and you do not, because your attitudes on people who disagree with you are remarkably the same.

 

Fortunately for you, my son the Marine is out there protecting your right to attack my patriotism.

[CubKilla]

Originally posted by cwsox

If the freedom to disagree is so valued in America by you, as opposed to your thinking that everyone must agree with you, why do suggest that I hate this country and should leave it?

 

For your suggestion that I hate this country, or that anyone who differs from your opinions must hate this country, I respond sir that your opinions are not the sole defining ones of who loves this country. 

 

And as for your suggestion that I leave this country, that is not worthy of any response.

 

Your mindset hardly reflects that of the United States and all that makes this country what it is, and has a lot more in common with a dictatorship and a tyrant.

 

It would appear the sole differance between Sadaam Hussein and yourself is that he holds power and you do not, because your attitudes on people who disagree with you are remarkably the same. 

 

Fortunately for you, my son the Marine is out there protecting your right to attack my patriotism. 

 

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the "liberal 3" on this board. Sorry for the confusion.

 

P.S. Everyday I go to work I also protect the citizens of this country from enemies foreign and domestic. Was part of the oath I took when I graduated. You and your son both have my respect..... I can GUARANTEE you that

[cwsox]

My son doesn't have my respect, he's a Tigers fan, damn it! You know how kids need to rebel against the parents - but the last laugh is on him, since his son is a die hard Sox fan at age 7!

 

 

 

 

Anyway, forget this political bulls*** and lets have a beer at the tailgate on opening day!

[CubKilla]

Deal