Official 2007-08 College Basketball Thread

[hitlesswonder]

how many times has he had a problem "keeping" recruits?

 

Do you honestly think Richmond, Bertrand, and Paul are going to want to play for what they saw last night when they could go to UNC, UCLA, USC, Memphis, Indiana...or anywhere where the basketball program isn't obviously dying? Whether or not Weber should be fired, he will have a hard time keeping those recruits after this season and next. It won't be pretty.

Edited December 21, 2007 by hitlesswonder

[thedoctor]

Do you honestly think Richmond, Bertrand, and Paul are going to want to play for what they saw last night when they could go to UNC, UCLA, USC, Memphis, Indiana...or anywhere where the basketball program isn't obviously dying? Whether or Weber should be fired, he will have a hard time keeping those recruits after this season and next. It won't be pretty.

 

well, time will tell on that. my point is that there has been one case (one) in five years where weber had a problem keeping recruits. if you can cite others i'm missing, feel free. and yes, i am fairly certain that richmond, bertrand, and paul are going to end up playing for illini. just as i'm confident crandall head will, and fairly confident anthony johnson will. but again, time will tell.

 

i will say that my confidence in those guys coming would diminish considerably if weber was fired. but that isn't going to happen, so it isn't really relevant to discuss.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Do you honestly think Richmond, Bertrand, and Paul are going to want to play for what they saw last night when they could go to UNC, UCLA, USC, Memphis, Indiana...or anywhere where the basketball program isn't obviously dying? Whether or not Weber should be fired, he will have a hard time keeping those recruits after this season and next. It won't be pretty.

 

 

True, he is the kind of the verbal signing period.. and if Self or Sampson want one of these "elite players", they will probably jump.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Jimbo's Drinker

[Jimbo's Drinker]

Maybe the 09-10 recruits wont try to kill one of their teammates either.

[thedoctor]

Maybe the 09-10 recruits wont try to kill one of their teammates either.

 

that's some weak tihs even for you. maybe some day you'll actually bring some relevance or insight to this thread.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

that's some weak tihs even for you. maybe some day you'll actually bring some relevance or insight to this thread.

 

 

Just speaking the truth.

[hitlesswonder]

well, time will tell on that. my point is that there has been one case (one) in five years where weber had a problem keeping recruits. if you can cite others i'm missing, feel free. and yes, i am fairly certain that richmond, bertrand, and paul are going to end up playing for illini. just as i'm confident crandall head will, and fairly confident anthony johnson will. but again, time will tell.

 

i will say that my confidence in those guys coming would diminish considerably if weber was fired. but that isn't going to happen, so it isn't really relevant to discuss.

 

Well, Gordon was the only recruit Weber has had on a par with Richmond and he did have trouble keeping him. It's not like the rest of Weber's recruits were 5 stars everyone wanted. But I wasn't appealing to past history, but rather what I think is an obvious future. I don't see why the 09-10 recruits would be less likely to come to Illinois if Weber were replaced, I think it might actually make the program more appealing.

 

As you say, only time will tell.

 

If I can switch to a more interesting subject --are you surprised at McCamey's play so far? I didn't see him play before now, and I get the impression you did. I don't want this to sound like I'm ripping on him (he's a freshman), but he doesn't seem very quick. Do you think he can be a quality point guard in the Big Ten eventually? I was hoping that Illinois would have a guard that could penetrate finally, but it's possible that that's not all on McCamey -- it seems like the UI motion offense doesn't lend itself to that.

Edited December 21, 2007 by hitlesswonder

[thedoctor]

Well, Gordon was the only recruit Weber has had on a par with Richmond and he did have trouble keeping him. It's not like the rest of Weber's recruits were 5 stars everyone wanted. But I wasn't appealing to past history, but rather what I think is an obvious future. I don't see why the 09-10 recruits would be less likely to come to Illinois Weber were replaced, I think it might actually make the program more appealing.

 

As you say, only time will tell.

 

If I can switch to a more interesting subject --are you surprised at McCamey's play so far? I didn't see him play before now, and I get the impression you did. I don't want this to sound like I'm ripping on him (he's a freshman), but he doesn't seem very quick. Do you think he can be a quality point guard in the Big Ten eventually? I was hoping that Illinois would have a guard that could penetrate finally, but it's possible that that's not all McCamey -- it seems like the UI motion offense doesn't lend itself to that.

 

no, i'd never seen him play before here. i live in ohio so i rarely see high school players from illinois. occasionally i get back home and sneak in a game, but it's usually a cpl game and mccamey didn't play in the cpl.

 

in terms of mccamey, i think he's having the same issues many freshmen have. in terms of his quickness, he was never advertised as exceptionally quick, but that part doesn't really concern me because i think it can be offset by his size. he'll have a hard time guarding smaller and quicker guards, but smaller and quicker guards will have a hard time guarding him.

 

i don't think he's looked great so far, but very few freshman come in and light up the world. look at evan turner's numbers. he was higher rated than mccamey and he's putting up similar numbers and having similar struggles. it's a process and the fact that he hasn't torn up the world 10 games into his college career isn't making me ready to draw any conclusions.

[whitesoxfan99]

well, time will tell on that. my point is that there has been one case (one) in five years where weber had a problem keeping recruits. if you can cite others i'm missing, feel free. and yes, i am fairly certain that richmond, bertrand, and paul are going to end up playing for illini. just as i'm confident crandall head will, and fairly confident anthony johnson will. but again, time will tell.

 

i will say that my confidence in those guys coming would diminish considerably if weber was fired. but that isn't going to happen, so it isn't really relevant to discuss.

 

This is basically my feeling on the situation. Crandall Head is basically committed to Illinois. After the shootout on Saturday he said he loved Illinois it was the only school he was seriously considering and he was making a decision shortly after the new year. Add in that Jerrance was Lu's roommate and Luther has a ton of respect for Weber and it is pretty obvious where he is heading. Richmond, Paul, Bertrand, and Richardson are all sold on playing together and they are sold on Illinois. If Richmond was committed and Weber didn't have the 09 guys a decommit may be a possibility (although if he didn't have the 09 guys he would probably be fired).

[whitesoxfan99]

Well, Gordon was the only recruit Weber has had on a par with Richmond and he did have trouble keeping him. It's not like the rest of Weber's recruits were 5 stars everyone wanted. But I wasn't appealing to past history, but rather what I think is an obvious future. I don't see why the 09-10 recruits would be less likely to come to Illinois if Weber were replaced, I think it might actually make the program more appealing.

 

As you say, only time will tell.

 

If I can switch to a more interesting subject --are you surprised at McCamey's play so far? I didn't see him play before now, and I get the impression you did. I don't want this to sound like I'm ripping on him (he's a freshman), but he doesn't seem very quick. Do you think he can be a quality point guard in the Big Ten eventually? I was hoping that Illinois would have a guard that could penetrate finally, but it's possible that that's not all on McCamey -- it seems like the UI motion offense doesn't lend itself to that.

 

I saw him play against Simeon last year and he was outstanding in that game. Couldn't guard Rose (but who can) but he showed a ton of promise in that game. He has very good court vision and he actually handles the ball very well. I think there are some concentration issues with him as he doesn't always seem to be all there during games. He has made a lot of lazy passes this year and some passes that he could get away with in high school are turnovers right now. He has also had several really good passes dropped this year because it seems like people aren't expecting the ball (probably a product of playing with a PG who can't find the open man last year). Quickness will be a problem against the small quick PGs but he should be able to use his size to offset that on offense once he figures the game out. He is actually very fast end to end just not very laterally quick. Time will tell how good he becomes but he certainly has the ability to be a very good big ten PG. I do question his work ethic though as he doesn't seem to grasp how hard you have to work at this point in time or the intensity you need to play with at this level. And I think that has been a big part of his problem this year because most of his turnovers have just been lazy ball handling or passes. He also has to work on his jumpshot because he is an extremely streaky shooter at this point (the game against Simeon he was on fire and couldn't miss from the outside).

 

I think the ability is there, it may take some time and I hope he develops the work ethic to live up to his potential. I do think it is time to throw him to the wolves and just let him learn on the court though. Frazier has actually regressed and he means little to the program at this point.

[thedoctor]

I think the ability is there, it may take some time and I hope he develops the work ethic to live up to his potential. I do think it is time to throw him to the wolves and just let him learn on the court though. Frazier has actually regressed and he means little to the program at this point.

 

frazier's regression has been damning to this team. you can't have a guy who's supposed to be a major contributor turn into a major liability. it's made weber have to play mccamey more often, which as we've seen has not always been a good thing. i think ideally mccamey would be playing rarely at this point, but you have to play him and let him learn on the fly.

 

weber and others who teach motion have said it usually takes a new group until around christmas to "get it" if they are ever going to. mccamey doesn't get it yet, but i think he will. the shortcomings i've seen out of him are what you tend to expect from freshmen--carelessness with the ball, lapses in defense, inability to go hard all the time, etc.

 

 

 

[hitlesswonder]

frazier's regression has been damning to this team. you can't have a guy who's supposed to be a major contributor turn into a major liability. it's made weber have to play mccamey more often, which as we've seen has not always been a good thing. i think ideally mccamey would be playing rarely at this point, but you have to play him and let him learn on the fly.

 

I'm actuallly amazed that someone as obviously athletic as Frazier isn't a better basketball player. The sad thing about this team is that -- I think -- if they just had one player that could shoot they could have played a 2 man game with that guy and Pruitt and been a tournament team.

 

[illinilaw08]

Your ignorance is almost as poorly informed as it is laughable. The Illini program, going back to the late 80's, had been stopped by only the Deon Thomas scandal. Lon Krueger fixed it, Bill Self built it, and Bruce Weber has destroyed it. The two previous coaches to Weber had built/were building something very special in Champaign, and Bruce Weber in only a couple years has destroyed the program and sent it into a spiral of mediocrity that will last at a minimum two years, but more likely three or four, if not until there is a new coach. Not to mention the fact that Bruce couldn't sell water to a thirsty man in the desert, so I'll believe this great class of 2009 when it's signed. The numbers under Weber don't like:

 

2003-2004: 5 Self recruits starting, Sweet 16

2004-2005: 5 Self recruits starting (all as juniors and seniors), 5 NBA players, National Runner Up

2005-2006: 5 Self recruits starting, but lost Luther, Deron, Powell, and Ingram: blew 11 point 2nd half lead in 2nd round.

2006-2007: 4 Self recruits starting, but lost James and Dee, blew 13 point lead in 8 minutes to lose in 1st round

2007-2008: 1 Self recruit (the only one left) starting, no guard play, 6-4 record, NIT bound (maybe), only help incoming next season is the 100th 3 star big man Weber has signed, and a convicted felon.

 

If that's not a bad coach ruining a great program that he inherited, I don't know what is. And he's done it FAST, I didn't even think the falloff would be this quick, I mean it's an undeserved fluke they were even in the tournament last year, should have been in the NIT with their resume.

 

Without starting a war here, Kruger was criticized constantly in Champaign for his inability to land CPL players. Kruger was fortunate that he landed the Peoria Manual kids (Sergio was the reason they didn't all end up at Indiana if I remerber right) and he was blessed with Cook being another insane talent from downstate (the type of player that was coming to Illinois regardless of coach). Beyond those players, he landed guys like Lucas Johnson, Damir Krupalija, Robert Archibald, and Corey Bradford who weren't on anyone's top 100 lists.

 

On Weber, I find it hard to believe that the '09 and '10 kids are going anywhere. While it is true that the current state of the program is on Weber and Illini fans are going to suffer through a stretch of bad basketball for the next year and a half, the future looks bright and Weber has proven that he can coach talented guards.

 

And if Chester Frazier had any basketball ability whatsoever he would be amazing... it's too bad he doesn't. Agree on all fronts that it's time to throw McCamey to the wolves.

Edited December 21, 2007 by illinilaw08

[thedoctor]

I'm actuallly amazed that someone as obviously athletic as Frazier isn't a better basketball player. The sad thing about this team is that -- I think -- if they just had one player that could shoot they could have played a 2 man game with that guy and Pruitt and been a tournament team.

 

agreed. a guy like jamar is exactly what they need here, but rightfully he is not a part of this year's group.

 

i know the conventional wisdom here has been that jamar got off easy, which i think is laughable. when all is said and done he'll have served a year-and-a-half suspension in addition to jail time. plenty of players who've gotten dui's have gotten off with much, much less. certainly there are other elements of case that warranted a more severe penalty, but i don't get the claim that his penalty is not severe.

 

in terms of frazier, he just is what he is. he reminds me of randle in the sense that he does good things and you expect more, but you never really get it.

[He_Gawn]

agreed. a guy like jamar is exactly what they need here, but rightfully he is not a part of this year's group.

 

i know the conventional wisdom here has been that jamar got off easy, which i think is laughable. when all is said and done he'll have served a year-and-a-half suspension in addition to jail time. plenty of players who've gotten dui's have gotten off with much, much less. certainly there are other elements of case that warranted a more severe penalty, but i don't get the claim that his penalty is not severe.

 

in terms of frazier, he just is what he is. he reminds me of randle in the sense that he does good things and you expect more, but you never really get it.

 

Laughable? He left his own teammate to die....

[thedoctor]

Laughable? He left his own teammate to die....

 

jamar was out of his head drunk on tequila and concussed. if you want to believe he clearheadedly and intentional left his teammate in a bad situation to cover his own ssa, then go right ahead.

 

to me, brian carlwell's actions toward jamar in the days after the accident speak volumes. the team's actions toward jamar also speak volumes. if smith "left his teammate to die" then why were all of his teammates including carlwell resoundingly supportive of jamar in both the immediate and long-term aftermath?

 

the kid made a mistake, clearly. there's no excuse for what he did. but to claim he got off easy or without reproach is, yes, laughable. and please note that i said the claim that jamar was not punished is laughable. of course the situation itself isn't laughable. if you are going to try to rebut what i say you could at least try to be accurate in assessing my point.

Edited December 21, 2007 by thedoctor

[Jenksismyhero]

Your ignorance is almost as poorly informed as it is laughable. The Illini program, going back to the late 80's, had been stopped by only the Deon Thomas scandal. Lon Krueger fixed it, Bill Self built it, and Bruce Weber has destroyed it. The two previous coaches to Weber had built/were building something very special in Champaign, and Bruce Weber in only a couple years has destroyed the program and sent it into a spiral of mediocrity that will last at a minimum two years, but more likely three or four, if not until there is a new coach. Not to mention the fact that Bruce couldn't sell water to a thirsty man in the desert, so I'll believe this great class of 2009 when it's signed. The numbers under Weber don't like:

 

2003-2004: 5 Self recruits starting, Sweet 16

2004-2005: 5 Self recruits starting (all as juniors and seniors), 5 NBA players, National Runner Up

2005-2006: 5 Self recruits starting, but lost Luther, Deron, Powell, and Ingram: blew 11 point 2nd half lead in 2nd round.

2006-2007: 4 Self recruits starting, but lost James and Dee, blew 13 point lead in 8 minutes to lose in 1st round

2007-2008: 1 Self recruit (the only one left) starting, no guard play, 6-4 record, NIT bound (maybe), only help incoming next season is the 100th 3 star big man Weber has signed, and a convicted felon.

 

If that's not a bad coach ruining a great program that he inherited, I don't know what is. And he's done it FAST, I didn't even think the falloff would be this quick, I mean it's an undeserved fluke they were even in the tournament last year, should have been in the NIT with their resume.

 

How can ignorance be informed? That makes no sense.

 

You just proved my point about the other half of Illini nation. Tell me again how Self did here? An elite eight? 2 first round losses? Yeah, Weber sure buried the program with that national championship game. How many of those has Illinois been in the last 50 years?

 

Look, I'm not saying the program isn't on the decline (albeit slight). I'm saying people think Illinois is and always has been this elite program and anything less than final four appearances is a failure. You can dream all you want about how Illinois would have won 5 championships the last 5 years if Self would have stayed (ask Kansas how that's worked out, even with lofty seedings and 5* studs). But that's just not the history of the program. Henson was there what, 15 years? And he made one final four?

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

I'm not expecting finals fours every year at all, but for Illinois to be this bereft of talent and be in position to miss multiple NCAA tournaments in a row is inexcuseable, and to say this program hasn't had a HUGE falloff under Weber is inaccurate. He's destroyed years and years of momentum, and did it very fast.

[thedoctor]

I'm not expecting finals fours every year at all, but for Illinois to be this bereft of talent and be in position to miss multiple NCAA tournaments in a row is inexcuseable, and to say this program hasn't had a HUGE falloff under Weber is inaccurate. He's destroyed years and years of momentum, and did it very fast.

 

you know, i hear what you're saying and i understand to a certain degree. but from a historical perspective, what is happening to the program now is not all that odd. but really, weber was going to have a huge fall-off one way or another. there's not too far up to go from 37-2.

 

i think we all hoped that in the aftermath of that we'd just clean up on recruits. instead, we followed the historical pattern illinois teams have followed. we missed out on a lot of great chicago-area kids, and didn't have outstanding downstate talent to offset those losses. that led to what we are seeing today.

 

many, many programs have gone through what we are going through right now for varying reasons. look at uconn, or maryland, or even kentucky. these are programs that within the past decade or so have won titles and subsequently had struggles for whatever reason. even duke and carolina have had downturns. it happens.

 

the knee-jerk reaction to this stuff is, "fire the coach." but again, i fail to see what long-term benefit the program gains by cutting ties with weber if he misses the tournament this year. now if you miss this year and next and we see some of these committed kids decide to go elsewhere, well at that point i think you take a serious look at everything. i just don't feel as if we're even close to that point.

[RockRaines]

wow, this thread turned ugly quick.

[thedoctor]

wow, this thread turned ugly quick.

 

this is nothing. you should see the illinois boards. better yet, don't.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

I still hate Self......

 

If we could clone self and weber....watch out John Wooden.

[hitlesswonder]

this is nothing. you should see the illinois boards. better yet, don't.

 

yeah -- I don't think this thread is that bad at all, at least when graded on a curve.

[thedoctor]

yeah -- I don't think this thread is that bad at all, at least when graded on a curve.

 

lol. true enough, true enough.

[dasox24]

I still hate Self......

 

If we could clone self and weber....watch out John Wooden.

No kidding...