Fascinating

[Vance Law]

Did players ever have career years in, like, the 1950s or 60s or 70s or 40s or 30s or 20s?

[Dick Allen]

The goal for some might be to win a championship.

The goal for most is to make as much money as possible.

[lvjeremylv]

Did players ever have career years in, like, the 1950s or 60s or 70s or 40s or 30s or 20s?

Players have career years all the time. It's going to happen at some point in everyone's career. But to me, when it happens to a number of players on the same team in the same year, that raises the proverbial red flag.

[santo=dorf]

Your sarcasm is noted. But it's suspicious whenever a player goes from being very, very mediocre over a large period of time, to being dominant. To suggest otherwise is naive. Frank, when healthy, has always put up good numbers. He didn't start hitting home runs and being a stud overnight like a lot of players do and have.

Since it happened in one season and that player went back to being mediocre, how about calling it a "fluke?" If it was performance-enhancing drug related, why would they suck the next year if they continued to use them? Why would they stop using them?

[CanOfCorn]

Players have career years all the time. It's going to happen at some point in everyone's career. But to me, when it happens to a number of players on the same team in the same year, that raises the proverbial red flag.

 

Then how do you explain the 83-79 Cardinals? It doesn't matter as long as you get to the playoffs because anything can happen.

 

Neither baseball nor Congress will get to the bottom of this problem. It isn't about McNamee and Clemens...or Pettitte or Palmeiro or McGwire or Canseco. It's about steroids and baseball. You want to do something about it...lock Selig, Fehr and a mediator in a room and FIGURE IT OUT!

[lvjeremylv]

Since it happened in one season and that player went back to being mediocre, how about calling it a "fluke?" If it was performance-enhancing drug related, why would they suck the next year if they continued to use them? Why would they stop using them?

Several flukes in the same bullpen? Interesting coincidence.

 

There are lots of reasons why an athlete might stop taking performance enhancing drugs. Fear of getting caught; guilt from cheating; no longer needing them since they achieved their objective (whatever that may be); wanting to stop before putting their body in greater danger. Those are 4 possible answers.

 

I don't want to make it sound like I for sure believe that the 2005 Sox were up to no good. I really hope that the stars aligned that year and everything worked out in our favor. It was the greatest moment of my sports life, and if it came to light that there were HGH or steroids involved, it would greatly disappoint me and tarnish that entire year of my life. But to dismiss the possibility categorically is not prudent.

[Kyyle23]

Several flukes in the same bullpen? Interesting coincidence.

 

There are lots of reasons why an athlete might stop taking performance enhancing drugs. Fear of getting caught; guilt from cheating; no longer needing them since they achieved their objective (whatever that may be); wanting to stop before putting their body in greater danger. Those are 4 possible answers.

 

I don't want to make it sound like I for sure believe that the 2005 Sox were up to no good. I really hope that the stars aligned that year and everything worked out in our favor. It was the greatest moment of my sports life, and if it came to light that there were HGH or steroids involved, it would greatly disappoint me and tarnish that entire year of my life. But to dismiss the possibility categorically is not prudent.

 

Strange, because thats exactly how your arguments sound, lol

[lvjeremylv]

Then how do you explain the 83-79 Cardinals? It doesn't matter as long as you get to the playoffs because anything can happen.

 

Neither baseball nor Congress will get to the bottom of this problem. It isn't about McNamee and Clemens...or Pettitte or Palmeiro or McGwire or Canseco. It's about steroids and baseball. You want to do something about it...lock Selig, Fehr and a mediator in a room and FIGURE IT OUT!

Congress may not figure it out, but they're doing a hell of a lot more than anyone in baseball ever did. And if you think that Bud Selig and Donald Fehr are the 2 culprits, you're sadly mistaken. How about the owners who knew it was going on for the past 20 years and did nothing about it? How about the players who themselves weren't taking steroids but saw it going on and did nothing about it? And what about the players who had needles stuck in their asses while defrauding the fans, the record books, and ruining the reputation of the greatest sport ever invented?

 

Those greedy bastards tarnished a great game for one reason - greed. Greed for money, greed for fame, and greed for legacy. Well now they have their money, but to go along with that they have soiled reputations, a complete lack of respect, and the disdain of millions of fans all over the world. I hope the millions was worth their dignity and pride.

[lvjeremylv]

Strange, because thats exactly how your arguments sound, lol

I know, lol. That's because I seem to be the only one who thinks it's POSSIBLE. I'm kind of being forced to play devil's advocate, which I don't mind doing, but in doing so it seems like I'm convinced that something was going on. I'm not, but I wish I could know for sure.

[fathom]

I know, lol. That's because I seem to be the only one who thinks it's POSSIBLE. I'm kind of being forced to play devil's advocate, which I don't mind doing, but in doing so it seems like I'm convinced that something was going on. I'm not, but I wish I could know for sure.

 

If anything, I have more pride in the fact the Sox were the first team to win it after the steroid testing went into place. They were probably the cleanest team in decades to win it all.

[TheBigHurt]

Wow. McNamee just got owned.

[CanOfCorn]

Congress may not figure it out, but they're doing a hell of a lot more than anyone in baseball ever did. And if you think that Bud Selig and Donald Fehr are the 2 culprits, you're sadly mistaken. How about the owners who knew it was going on for the past 20 years and did nothing about it? How about the players who themselves weren't taking steroids but saw it going on and did nothing about it? And what about the players who had needles stuck in their asses while defrauding the fans, the record books, and ruining the reputation of the greatest sport ever invented?

 

Those greedy bastards tarnished a great game for one reason - greed. Greed for money, greed for fame, and greed for legacy. Well now they have their money, but to go along with that they have soiled reputations, a complete lack of respect, and the disdain of millions of fans all over the world. I hope the millions was worth their dignity and pride.

 

Selig represents owners (more or less)...Fehr represents the players (more or less).

 

You won't be able to get anything done if you had 32 owners and 32 player representatives.

 

We, as fans, are also partly to blame. WE like the records being broken. WE like to see players do things that we, as fans, only wish we can do. WE show up to the games to see these things. Throw harder, hit farther, run faster...this is a no win situation. The game isn't ruined but it is certainly tarnished for a very long time. The problem is, they are all liars, true or false.

 

Just like the Donaghy situation tarnished ALL referees in basketball, whether they are or not. That's what this does to baseball. And unfortunately, this is more of a witch hunt than a call to arms, which is what it should be.

[lvjeremylv]

Wow. McNamee just got owned.

Yeah this stuff is pretty intense lol. I'm glued to this hearing.

[CanOfCorn]

On a side note, Rep. Waxman is one weird lookin' dude.

[lvjeremylv]

We, as fans, are also partly to blame. WE like the records being broken. WE like to see players do things that we, as fans, only wish we can do. WE show up to the games to see these things. Throw harder, hit farther, run faster...this is a no win situation. The game isn't ruined but it is certainly tarnished for a very long time. The problem is, they are all liars, true or false.

I don't know of 1 real fan who would want a cheater to have any amount of success, much less break any records. These players broke records under false pretenses, and those who did should be ashamed of themselves. I don't see us fans as being partially to blame. Just because we...LOL the chairman just OWNED Roger, who tried to chime in when his time to talk was over. Anyway, just because the fans show up to the ballpark and cheer, that doesn't make it OK for those players we're cheering for to cheat the game and lie to the world.

[lvjeremylv]

On a side note, Rep. Waxman is one weird lookin' dude.

I don't know his name, but the chairman looks like a rat.

[Controlled Chaos]

Yeah this stuff is pretty intense lol. I'm glued to this hearing.

Bah ...it was fluff....the whole f***in thing is about McNamee injecting Clemens as well as others. So the congressman gets on his soapbox and says "YOU ARE A DRUG DEALER" and that means McNamee is owned?? I don't think so.

 

I'll tell you what....and I've said it in the thread in the Diamond Club....it's f***in nuts how this has fallen right down party lines. I have no idea how, but every Republican has sided with Clemens and every Democrat has sided with McNamee. As a republican, I'm sick about it.

[lvjeremylv]

Just like the Donaghy situation tarnished ALL referees in basketball, whether they are or not.

The only flaw in that statement is this - the NBA did not turn a blind eye to the situation and pretend it didn't exist. They dealt with it swiftly and strongly, and that helped to greatly minimize any damage that could have been done to the sport. If baseball had dealt with steroids as swiftly and strongly in the 80's (70's?) instead of allowing it to spread and grow because of greed, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

[BamaDoc]

Am I the only person that thinks this is ridiculous? Why are my tax dollars being spent on this instead of fixing the economy, fighting a war, ending hunger, getting someone a job or education!

 

No one is addressing the real reason.....MONEY. If you are a sucessful major leaguer you make millions for playing a game. Most of the players would have little ability to earn a living in the real world. They are trading a possible future health issue for the chance at millions. People smoke and drink with a lot more certain health problem for much less reward.

[TheBigHurt]

We, as fans, are also partly to blame. WE like the records being broken. WE like to see players do things that we, as fans, only wish we can do. WE show up to the games to see these things. Throw harder, hit farther, run faster...this is a no win situation. The game isn't ruined but it is certainly tarnished for a very long time. The problem is, they are all liars, true or false.

 

That's ridiculous. WE aren't making the decision to take drugs and open ourselves up to this kind of peril. If you'd give in to "pressure" like that, you must be pretty gullable. Fans are not to blame for players' actions.

[Kyyle23]

The only flaw in that statement is this - the NBA did not turn a blind eye to the situation and pretend it didn't exist. They dealt with it swiftly and strongly, and that helped to greatly minimize any damage that could have been done to the sport. If baseball had dealt with steroids as swiftly and strongly in the 80's (70's?) instead of allowing it to spread and grow because of greed, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

 

Depending on how long you think David Stern knew about the allegations. Some people think he knew about it for quite some time

[CanOfCorn]

I don't know of 1 real fan who would want a cheater to have any amount of success, much less break any records. These players broke records under false pretenses, and those who did should be ashamed of themselves. I don't see us fans as being partially to blame. Just because we...LOL the chairman just OWNED Roger, who tried to chime in when his time to talk was over. Anyway, just because the fans show up to the ballpark and cheer, that doesn't make it OK for those players we're cheering for to cheat the game and lie to the world.

 

Don't even tell me that you were ignorant to the fact that there might be an issue of PEDs. C'mon. Juiced balls? I don't think so. We were talking about this in '98. We were whispering about it in '88 with the Bash Brothers. We didn't want Bonds to break Aaron's record because he's an asshole. Steroids was second. I'm not saying we are the only ones, but we are partially to blame. And as for Donaghy, I wasn't talking about the NBA, I was talking about fans thinking they are crooked. You're right, though, the NBA acted swiftly and smartly and it isn't nearly as bad as it could've been.

[lvjeremylv]

Depending on how long you think David Stern knew about the allegations. Some people think he knew about it for quite some time

Allegations are one thing. Proof is another. Once the NBA and David Stern had the necessary evidence, that was the end of it.

[lvjeremylv]

Don't even tell me that you were ignorant to the fact that there might be an issue of PEDs. C'mon. Juiced balls? I don't think so. We were talking about this in '98. We were whispering about it in '88 with the Bash Brothers. We didn't want Bonds to break Aaron's record because he's an asshole. Steroids was second. I'm not saying we are the only ones, but we are partially to blame. And as for Donaghy, I wasn't talking about the NBA, I was talking about fans thinking they are crooked. You're right, though, the NBA acted swiftly and smartly and it isn't nearly as bad as it could've been.

I actually was ignorant and naive when it came to MLB and performance enhancing drugs. When the HR chase of '98 happened, I was only 17, so I really didn't know what steroids were - I wasn't a meat head athlete who dealt with that stuff - and didn't know there was a possibility of it being a widespread problem in sports. Now that I'm older and (a little) wiser, it's pretty obvious what was going on and how long in fact it's been going on. And it's time someone did something about it.

[CanOfCorn]

That's ridiculous. WE aren't making the decision to take drugs and open ourselves up to this kind of peril. If you'd give in to "pressure" like that, you must be pretty gullable. Fans are not to blame for players' actions.

 

No, but we like to watch things that we can't do. We didn't inject any player, never said we did. Fans didn't force anyone to do anything. But to say that more fans showing up to watch players like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Brady Anderson hit 50 hrs, Palmeiro, etc. it's irresponsible to think that fans didn't have a small part of it. If we stopped going to games, that sends a clear message.

 

Shoot, I'm responsible too, I didn't stop going to games.