If you thought the subprime mortgage crisis was bad...

[mr_genius]

That's why I keep coming back to the lender/bank level in this, because that's a key element in this whole credit mess. If I'm running the ol Bailey building and loan, it's part of my job to make sure that the loans I write are going to get paid off, because otherwise my business goes under. But once I can sell off all these loans to some investor somewhere who bundles it and sells it off again, then I can make money by writing loans that will never in a million years be paid off. That's the breakdown that happened the last 5 years, and that's where we need something done to fix the system.

 

Some of the borrowers or financers are going to take a hit. If they know that they won't get bailed out by taxpayers, they are going to have to think twice about giving out loans to people who can't afford them. Well, that or they can lose a bunch of money and go out of business.

[mr_genius]

At the time, having thousands of Savings and Loans going out of business was judged to destroy our economy. Again, Kap, SS, or Bureau may be better at answering that.

 

pfft, bereau voted for Ron Paul. don't listen to him

[Balta1701]

Some of the borrowers or financers are going to take a hit. If they know that they won't get bailed out by taxpayers, they are going to have to think twice about giving out loans to people who can't afford them. Well, that or they can lose a bunch of money and go out of business.

Here's the problem with that. The financers no longer are the ones holding the loans. It's moved on to hedge funds, things run by the real big shots, like Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, UBS, Citibank, the really big guys. Those are the companies that bought all of this worthless garbage, in some form or another, as investment vehicles. The argument that is going to be made is that the country can't afford to have those guys go under, and that's where the bailout talk will come in. Those are the guys currently left holding the bag, and they're the ones with the lobbying power to make a bailout happen.

[mr_genius]

Here's the problem with that. The financers no longer are the ones holding the loans. It's moved on to hedge funds, things run by the real big shots, like Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, UBS, Citibank, the really big guys. Those are the companies that bought all of this worthless garbage, in some form or another, as investment vehicles. The argument that is going to be made is that the country can't afford to have those guys go under, and that's where the bailout talk will come in. Those are the guys currently left holding the bag, and they're the ones with the lobbying power to make a bailout happen.

 

If the government is going to loan them money to help them out, fine. They NEED to pay that back (with interest), not a corporate welfare deal.

 

And honestly, I still think it encourages bad borrowing policies.

[Texsox]

If the government is going to loan them money to help them out, fine. They NEED to pay that back (with interest), not a corporate welfare deal.

 

And honestly, I still think it encourages bad borrowing policies.

 

I agree. But if it is in our best financial interest, like the stimulus checks.

[DrunkBomber]

At what point is someone responsible for their own actions? I just dont see how anyone would have sympathy for some idiot who doesnt even work and leased a 100k BMW knowing EXACTLY what the payments were going to be every month. Also, how much did it say she put down, 30k? On a lease? She wasnt gonna get it back anyway

[kapkomet]

At the time, having thousands of Savings and Loans going out of business was judged to destroy our economy. Again, Kap, SS, or Bureau may be better at answering that.

You know why we recovered from that so quickly? It's called, we wrote off our losses and went on. We don't need a bailout, or a freeze. It's not the worst thing that can happen, but it's darn close (to the worst).

[Texsox]

You know why we recovered from that so quickly? It's called, we wrote off our losses and went on. We don't need a bailout, or a freeze. It's not the worst thing that can happen, but it's darn close (to the worst).

 

Why did we call it a "bail out" I thought the government stepped in?

[Texsox]

At what point is someone responsible for their own actions? I just dont see how anyone would have sympathy for some idiot who doesnt even work and leased a 100k BMW knowing EXACTLY what the payments were going to be every month. Also, how much did it say she put down, 30k? On a lease? She wasnt gonna get it back anyway

She was on temporary disability, went into Autonation to look, got caught up in the excitement created by the salesperson. Agreed to use an income figure of $6000 which was her expected income after she was off disability, which the dealer later changed to $8,600 to get her the loan. She did manage to accumulate $30,000 in savings, but we don't know if that was from her job or some other means.

 

Let's hear it for the salesperson! Found someone he could create excitement for and get the stupid idiot to take the car after cleaning out her life savings I'll bet they can't wait until the next stupid idiot walks through the door so they can pull the same stuff. Every car guy in America must have tipped a glass to that guy.

[StrangeSox]

She was on temporary disability, went into Autonation to look, got caught up in the excitement created by the salesperson. Agreed to use an income figure of $6000 which was her expected income after she was off disability, which the dealer later changed to $8,600 to get her the loan. She did manage to accumulate $30,000 in savings, but we don't know if that was from her job or some other means.

 

Let's hear it for the salesperson! Found someone he could create excitement for and get the stupid idiot to take the car after cleaning out her life savings I'll bet they can't wait until the next stupid idiot walks through the door so they can pull the same stuff. Every car guy in America must have tipped a glass to that guy.

 

 

 

How many times do we have to say that the dealership acted improperly too?

 

That doesn't change the fact that she made a very dumb decision all on her own and agreed to lie about her current income (I don't think a bank cares about your 'expected' income) on the application. I liken her to those ripped off by Nigerian scammers -- yes, the scammers are wrong and should be locked away for a while, but if it wasn't for your own greed, you wouldn't be in this mess.

[southsider2k5]

At what point is someone responsible for their own actions? I just dont see how anyone would have sympathy for some idiot who doesnt even work and leased a 100k BMW knowing EXACTLY what the payments were going to be every month. Also, how much did it say she put down, 30k? On a lease? She wasnt gonna get it back anyway

 

With all of the other things that people want to point to, this has begun the downfall of our society. We were founded as a republic of independant, self-sufficient, tough minded individuals. Now we have been reduced to being all being vicitims of something in our little nanny state who is here to protect us.

 

I still say the scariest thing you could ever say to me is...

 

"Hi, I am from the government, and I am here to help you!"

[southsideirish71]

She was on temporary disability, went into Autonation to look, got caught up in the excitement created by the salesperson. Agreed to use an income figure of $6000 which was her expected income after she was off disability, which the dealer later changed to $8,600 to get her the loan. She did manage to accumulate $30,000 in savings, but we don't know if that was from her job or some other means.

 

Let's hear it for the salesperson! Found someone he could create excitement for and get the stupid idiot to take the car after cleaning out her life savings I'll bet they can't wait until the next stupid idiot walks through the door so they can pull the same stuff. Every car guy in America must have tipped a glass to that guy.

 

 

Its nice to see that adults going to a dealership have the same self control as my 3 year old when chocolate is put on the table. Did the salesperson jingle the keys so the lady would react like cat to the can opener. She bolts toward the car, looks ooooh its my favorite color RED. Can I have it.

 

The dealership was wrong, the moron who bought the car was equally as wrong. I say that as I am about to get into my 1999 Honda Accord with 160k miles on it. Then again I realize that a car is transportation, and you dont get caught up in the moment. I could go and buy a Mercedes tomorrow, but then again I dont need a Mercedes and would rather take any discretionary income that I would use for a fancy new car and put it towards my house note so I can pay it off quicker.

 

 

Hi my name is Kelly can I use your bathroom.

 

"You dont need to use the bathrooom" Salesperson

"I dont need to use the bathroom" Kelly

"You want that 100k Red BMW" Salesperson

"I want that 100k Red BMW" Kelly

"Please sign here" Salesperson

"I signed here" Kelly

"Move along" Salesperson

"Move along" Kelly

"WTF Just happened. I am a victim. Damn Jedi" Kelly

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Its nice to see that adults going to a dealership have the same self control as my 3 year old when chocolate is put on the table. Did the salesperson jingle the keys so the lady would react like cat to the can opener. She bolts toward the car, looks ooooh its my favorite color RED. Can I have it.

 

The dealership was wrong, the moron who bought the car was equally as wrong. I say that as I am about to get into my 1999 Honda Accord with 160k miles on it. Then again I realize that a car is transportation, and you dont get caught up in the moment. I could go and buy a Mercedes tomorrow, but then again I dont need a Mercedes and would rather take any discretionary income that I would use for a fancy new car and put it towards my house note so I can pay it off quicker.

Hi my name is Kelly can I use your bathroom.

 

"You dont need to use the bathrooom" Salesperson

"I dont need to use the bathroom" Kelly

"You want that 100k Red BMW" Salesperson

"I want that 100k Red BMW" Kelly

"Please sign here" Salesperson

"I signed here" Kelly

"Move along" Salesperson

"Move along" Kelly

"WTF Just happened. I am a victim. Damn Jedi" Kelly

 

Ok, ok, if they really used Jedi mind tricks, I'm willing to give her a pass.

[Texsox]

She was on temporary disability, which means she was recovering from something. Typically that would mean a major illness (cancer, heart attack, stroke) or accident (car accident, etc.). A very common side effect of a disability is depression. It sounds like she is getting back on her feet and close to working. Perhaps getting out of the house a little. Expecting to get her job back or similar. She wonders into a car dealership "looking". She thinks to herself, there is no harm in looking because she will not qualify for a loan. Certainly they will not let me out of here with one of these. Greedy because she was looking at the cars? Then everyone that has ever looked at something they can't afford is guilty of being greedy.

 

Then the con begins, this was not a sale, the dealership obviously commits fraud in this transaction. The salesperson convinces her that all she has to do is state what she will be making, give him all her savings, and the car is hers. Later, the con man or stealership, inflates her income even farther.

 

To believe that taking advantage of someone, even those dumb and stupid would make it open season on anyone who could be conned into buying something over their heads, or worthless. Hey I just sold that old lady furnace for $25,000 Woo Wooo! She has a tiny house, but I convinced here having one sized for a mansion would be better! She's stupid and an idiot!! Damn I screwed up, I should have added a $3,000 filter!! She's stupid and an idiot and deserves it. She was greedy and wanted the best furnace available.

 

You all can think it's OK to screw someone out of their life savings as long as they are stupid and the item is expensive enough.

 

Let's say she was stupid and an idiot. Based on this, it's her tough luck for being stupid and if anyone can take all your money, more power to them. Free season on the stupid.

 

Nice f***ing morals America.

 

Mourn the loss of rugged individualism? How about mourning the loss of common decency? The kind of common decency that stops a con man from taking the life savings from someone, simply because they can? Do you really want to have a society that everyone can screw anyone if they can?

[kapkomet]

She was on temporary disability, which means she was recovering from something. Typically that would mean a major illness (cancer, heart attack, stroke) or accident (car accident, etc.). A very common side effect of a disability is depression. It sounds like she is getting back on her feet and close to working. Perhaps getting out of the house a little. Expecting to get her job back or similar. She wonders into a car dealership "looking". She thinks to herself, there is no harm in looking because she will not qualify for a loan. Certainly they will not let me out of here with one of these. Greedy because she was looking at the cars? Then everyone that has ever looked at something they can't afford is guilty of being greedy.

 

Then the con begins, this was not a sale, the dealership obviously commits fraud in this transaction. The salesperson convinces her that all she has to do is state what she will be making, give him all her savings, and the car is hers. Later, the con man or stealership, inflates her income even farther.

 

To believe that taking advantage of someone, even those dumb and stupid would make it open season on anyone who could be conned into buying something over their heads, or worthless. Hey I just sold that old lady furnace for $25,000 Woo Wooo! She has a tiny house, but I convinced here having one sized for a mansion would be better! She's stupid and an idiot!! Damn I screwed up, I should have added a $3,000 filter!! She's stupid and an idiot and deserves it. She was greedy and wanted the best furnace available.

 

You all can think it's OK to screw someone out of their life savings as long as they are stupid and the item is expensive enough.

 

Let's say she was stupid and an idiot. Based on this, it's her tough luck for being stupid and if anyone can take all your money, more power to them. Free season on the stupid.

 

Nice f***ing morals America.

 

Mourn the loss of rugged individualism? How about mourning the loss of common decency? The kind of common decency that stops a con man from taking the life savings from someone, simply because they can? Do you really want to have a society that everyone can screw anyone if they can?

Boo hoo. Always a victim. ALWAYS.

 

Immigrants = victims

Old people = victims

Young people = naive and victims

 

You see "nanny state" thrown a bit around here. It's true. Tex, you're always defending people. While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I think that you have to understand that people need to use a little common sense. The bottom line is if something sounds even a little too good to be true, it usually is. "Oh that young man seems soooooo nice, he wouldn't steer me wrong..." *BLAH!!!*. You have to balance self discipline with the way the system works and realize that not everything is golden bricks, ya know?

 

I'm as sympathetic as the next person that individuals get burnt, but instead of complaining about it and asking the government to bail your ass out, learn from it, and move on. If people had that attitude, instead of the "nanny state" mentality that the majority of Americans seem to have, we would be light years ahead of where we are. Thanks, FDR.

 

[StrangeSox]

She was on temporary disability, which means she was recovering from something. Typically that would mean a major illness (cancer, heart attack, stroke) or accident (car accident, etc.). A very common side effect of a disability is depression. It sounds like she is getting back on her feet and close to working. Perhaps getting out of the house a little. Expecting to get her job back or similar. She wonders into a car dealership "looking". She thinks to herself, there is no harm in looking because she will not qualify for a loan. Certainly they will not let me out of here with one of these. Greedy because she was looking at the cars? Then everyone that has ever looked at something they can't afford is guilty of being greedy.

 

Then the con begins, this was not a sale, the dealership obviously commits fraud in this transaction. The salesperson convinces her that all she has to do is state what she will be making, give him all her savings, and the car is hers. Later, the con man or stealership, inflates her income even farther.

 

To believe that taking advantage of someone, even those dumb and stupid would make it open season on anyone who could be conned into buying something over their heads, or worthless. Hey I just sold that old lady furnace for $25,000 Woo Wooo! She has a tiny house, but I convinced here having one sized for a mansion would be better! She's stupid and an idiot!! Damn I screwed up, I should have added a $3,000 filter!! She's stupid and an idiot and deserves it. She was greedy and wanted the best furnace available.

 

You all can think it's OK to screw someone out of their life savings as long as they are stupid and the item is expensive enough.

 

Let's say she was stupid and an idiot. Based on this, it's her tough luck for being stupid and if anyone can take all your money, more power to them. Free season on the stupid.

 

Nice f***ing morals America.

 

Mourn the loss of rugged individualism? How about mourning the loss of common decency? The kind of common decency that stops a con man from taking the life savings from someone, simply because they can? Do you really want to have a society that everyone can screw anyone if they can?

 

GMAFB. How many times do we have to say THE DEALERSHIP ACTED IRRESPONSIBLY, POSSIBLY CRIMINALLY, AND SHOULD ALSO BE HELD RESPONSIBLE?

Edited February 14, 2008 by StrangeSox

[DrunkBomber]

She was on temporary disability, which means she was recovering from something. Typically that would mean a major illness (cancer, heart attack, stroke) or accident (car accident, etc.). A very common side effect of a disability is depression. It sounds like she is getting back on her feet and close to working. Perhaps getting out of the house a little. Expecting to get her job back or similar. She wonders into a car dealership "looking". She thinks to herself, there is no harm in looking because she will not qualify for a loan. Certainly they will not let me out of here with one of these. Greedy because she was looking at the cars? Then everyone that has ever looked at something they can't afford is guilty of being greedy.

 

Then the con begins, this was not a sale, the dealership obviously commits fraud in this transaction. The salesperson convinces her that all she has to do is state what she will be making, give him all her savings, and the car is hers. Later, the con man or stealership, inflates her income even farther.

 

To believe that taking advantage of someone, even those dumb and stupid would make it open season on anyone who could be conned into buying something over their heads, or worthless. Hey I just sold that old lady furnace for $25,000 Woo Wooo! She has a tiny house, but I convinced here having one sized for a mansion would be better! She's stupid and an idiot!! Damn I screwed up, I should have added a $3,000 filter!! She's stupid and an idiot and deserves it. She was greedy and wanted the best furnace available.

 

You all can think it's OK to screw someone out of their life savings as long as they are stupid and the item is expensive enough.

 

Let's say she was stupid and an idiot. Based on this, it's her tough luck for being stupid and if anyone can take all your money, more power to them. Free season on the stupid.

 

Nice f***ing morals America.

 

Mourn the loss of rugged individualism? How about mourning the loss of common decency? The kind of common decency that stops a con man from taking the life savings from someone, simply because they can? Do you really want to have a society that everyone can screw anyone if they can?

It could also mean she fake an injury at work to collect the benefits. Considering we dont have the facts thats just as likely, if not more likely, than cancer. So is it the car salesmans job or the finance companies job to determine if she was "depressed?" Any salesmans job is to make as much money for themselves and their dealership as they can, and its the consumers job to get the best deal. This kind of stuff happens everyday but most of the time people realize its their own fault and deal with it.

 

Its pathetic that now people should not only have to look out for their friends and family but now we have to look out for the best interests of strangers because they make stupid decisions.

 

She agreed to the payment amount and at the end of the day thats all that mattered. What if that sale was the salesmans only deal for the month and that the commision for it was all he had to feed his family? Does that mean if she didnt buy the car we should bail him out?

 

Going to a dealership isnt like going to a doctors office where they have to have your best interests in mind. They make more money the more they sell and I bet anyone in the salesmans shoes would do the same thing.

 

[Texsox]

Take this step by step

 

She reveals to the "salesperson" her income. A professional says "as much as I'd love to see you drive off the lot today in that Mercedes, until you are working, they will not approve the loan. How about you come back when you are working and we will celebrate with that new car? And would you mind if I check in on you from time to time to see how the job search is going?"

 

Instead she's in front of someone who realizes the only way to make this sale is through fraud. Now he has to determine if she is stupid and an idiot and gullible enough to go along with his fraud. It's his lucky day! He found someone "dumb" and an "idiot"! Even better, she has $30,000 in savings he can take! It certainly is his lucky day. Later message boards will be filled with scorn for her, but very little for him.

 

(at this point no one has any sympathy for her because she is a dumb idiot for going along with the con man's scam)

 

Later, his hopes are dashed because $6000 won't qualify. No problem! She's stupid and an idiot and he'll just squeeze an 8 in there and a decimal in here, and viola, he'll still have the sale, and she'll still be a stupid idiot. Again, message boards will be filled with scorn for her for not having any personal responsibility but he'll get off lightly.

 

She can't be a victim and a sympathetic figure because she's stupid and an idiot and walked into a Mercedes dealer? Cons and frauds work because people are trusting, stupid, gullible, etc. And we lock people up in prison for committing these frauds. Even when the person signs contracts, hands over cash, checks, etc. In fact, it usually isn't until they turn over valuables that a con can be convicted. Con men prey on the stupid and the idiots. This guy was a con man in a nice suit at a Mercedes dealership.

 

She clearly knew she was going along with something that is wrong, but the con man deserves 99% of the blame in this. It comes plenty close to entrapment. If he isn't willing to defraud the loan company. she doesn't.

[Balta1701]

Going to a dealership isnt like going to a doctors office where they have to have your best interests in mind. They make more money the more they sell and I bet anyone in the salesmans shoes would do the same thing.

Which is of course, why it's important to have someone who's job it is at some level to raise a flag and say "Hey, can you verify this income". It's fairly cheap, it used to be very common, and it used to be expected by people going for a loan. If the system was still working correctly, then no matter how many lies she told the dealer and how desperate the dealer was to make that sale...there would have still been an independent person in the way.

 

Fraud only works if you don't have a person who's job it is to prevent it.

[kapkomet]

Take this step by step

 

She reveals to the "salesperson" her income. A professional says "as much as I'd love to see you drive off the lot today in that Mercedes, until you are working, they will not approve the loan. How about you come back when you are working and we will celebrate with that new car? And would you mind if I check in on you from time to time to see how the job search is going?"

 

Instead she's in front of someone who realizes the only way to make this sale is through fraud. Now he has to determine if she is stupid and an idiot and gullible enough to go along with his fraud. It's his lucky day! He found someone "dumb" and an "idiot"! Even better, she has $30,000 in savings he can take! It certainly is his lucky day. Later message boards will be filled with scorn for her, but very little for him.

 

(at this point no one has any sympathy for her because she is a dumb idiot for going along with the con man's scam)

 

Later, his hopes are dashed because $6000 won't qualify. No problem! She's stupid and an idiot and he'll just squeeze an 8 in there and a decimal in here, and viola, he'll still have the sale, and she'll still be a stupid idiot. Again, message boards will be filled with scorn for her for not having any personal responsibility but he'll get off lightly.

 

She can't be a victim and a sympathetic figure because she's stupid and an idiot and walked into a Mercedes dealer? Cons and frauds work because people are trusting, stupid, gullible, etc. And we lock people up in prison for committing these frauds. Even when the person signs contracts, hands over cash, checks, etc. In fact, it usually isn't until they turn over valuables that a con can be convicted. Con men prey on the stupid and the idiots. This guy was a con man in a nice suit at a Mercedes dealership.

 

She clearly knew she was going along with something that is wrong, but the con man deserves 99% of the blame in this. It comes plenty close to entrapment. If he isn't willing to defraud the loan company. she doesn't.

 

Um, how many times do people have to say the scumbag was a worse idiot then she was, yet, she was an idiot, too? Damn, I think people have gone out of their way repeatedly to say that.

 

[EvilMonkey]

She can't be a victim and a sympathetic figure because she's stupid and an idiot and walked into a Mercedes dealer?

She can't be a sympathetic figure because regardless of the falsification of the income amount, she STILL knew what the payment figure was before signing on the line. She couldn't afford that, and should have known she couldn't afford that. Her being stupid does not absolve the salesperson from scorn, possible legal action, etc. So yes, the salesguy, and possibly the dealer, are evil, but she is an unsympathetic idiot.

[Balta1701]

But hey, don't worry folks. She can go to jail, the car will be repossessed, and some bank will just have to write off the $50,000 in losses/depreciation. The bank's the one in trouble here, but it won't hurt you at all.

The banking industry, struggling to contain the fallout from the mortgage debacle, is urgently shopping proposals to Congress and the Bush administration that could shift some of the risk for troubled loans to the federal government.

 

One proposal, advanced by officials at Credit Suisse Group, would expand the scope of loans guaranteed by the Federal Housing Administration. The proposal would let the FHA guarantee mortgage refinancings by some delinquent borrowers.

 

Credit Suisse officials have met with senior officials from the Department of Housing and Urban Development, which runs the FHA, and other policy makers to discuss the proposal.

D'OH.

[Texsox]

GMAFB. How many times do we have to say THE DEALERSHIP ACTED IRRESPONSIBLY, POSSIBLY CRIMINALLY, AND SHOULD ALSO BE HELD RESPONSIBLE?

 

Here have a break

[Harry Chappas]

I could never imagine a car salesmen not being up front and honest. I'll keep this in mind the next time I go in ot buy a car.

[kapkomet]

I could never imagine a car salesmen not being up front and honest. I'll keep this in mind the next time I go in ot buy a car.

 

Egggsactly.