School shooting and God, related?

[CanOfCorn]

I think that argument is a cop-out. Lack of religion doesn't cause people to do what that idiot did at NIU. Nor is the opposite true. I think if you start getting into that argument, we begin to fall down a slippery slope. Who's religion is more moral?

 

It's the parents/guardians. You can't expect any external force to help raise our children. You can be moralistic without being religious...and vice versa.

[kapkomet]

ok, so say we take all that as a given. why is the answer forcing all kids in school to believe in the Christian God?

It's not, and I don't think he's trying to say that.

 

But, I do think that people should be able to express their religious beliefs (God, Allah, whatever) in school or whereever they are, and not be pigeonholed and forced to shut up due to "separation of church and state".

 

And this is true if they are not forcing their beliefs on someone. That's where it crosses the line and should not be allowed to occur.

[Reddy]

I think that argument is a cop-out. Lack of religion doesn't cause people to do what that idiot did at NIU. Nor is the opposite true. I think if you start getting into that argument, we begin to fall down a slippery slope. Who's religion is more moral?

 

It's the parents/guardians. You can't expect any external force to help raise our children. You can be moralistic without being religious...and vice versa.

 

exactly. i've never been religious and i would also consider myself as moral as the next guy, but i didn't learn it from God or church. I learned it from my parents.

[Soxy]

Look at history for a moment. When did the SCOTUS rule that school prayer was unconstitutional? 61 - 62? What was our country like (exempting civil rights issues, because that is one area we have drastically improved on) at that time. America was called 'Camelot' because of the quality of life in this country. The family was still strong, the nation was strong. JFK was leading us into what appeared to be even better times. Then he was shot. The beginning of Americans not trusting their gov't started on that day. We've been on a downhill spiral ever since that happened. I happened to believe that there is a definite correlation between that decision and moral and social decay of our nation.

Correlation, maybe. Causation, I don't really buy it. Couldn't it have been the fear of living in the cold war? And the constant paranoia? Or the explosion of tv as a medium? Or the civil rights movement? I mean there are just so many confounding variables in that equation to definitely say X led to Y.

[StrangeSox]

It's not, and I don't think he's trying to say that.

 

But, I do think that people should be able to express their religious beliefs (God, Allah, whatever) in school or whereever they are, and not be pigeonholed and forced to shut up due to "separation of church and state".

 

And this is true if they are not forcing their beliefs on someone. That's where it crosses the line and should not be allowed to occur.

 

Individuals are allowed to express whatever belief they want. I remember "prayer by the (flag) pole" at Lockport. I'm pretty sure a teacher even lead the group. But it was outside of class. It was mandatory, it wasn't forced, and it wasn't part of the official school day.

 

If a student wants to say a prayer themselves, or carry a Bible, no one is stopping them. If you're a teacher, your job isn't to proselytize your students, so you shouldn't be including prayer as part of your cirriculum.

Edited February 15, 2008 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

Correlation, maybe. Causation, I don't really buy it. Couldn't it have been the fear of living in the cold war? And the constant paranoia? Or the explosion of tv as a medium? Or the civil rights movement? I mean there are just so many confounding variables in that equation to definitely say X led to Y.

 

There are thousands of events you can pick out from the 60's and say "see! that's why!"

[Reddy]

It's not, and I don't think he's trying to say that.

 

But, I do think that people should be able to express their religious beliefs (God, Allah, whatever) in school or whereever they are, and not be pigeonholed and forced to shut up due to "separation of church and state".

 

And this is true if they are not forcing their beliefs on someone. That's where it crosses the line and should not be allowed to occur.

 

i actually agree with you on that - i just i don't think there should be organized prayer in school. It shouldn't be led by teachers or anything like that. And so, if it isn't led by teachers, then it's not an issue of whether God is in school or not, but whether God is in that individual kid's life. He or she will decide whether he/she wants to pray at school or whatever else and so thusly, it's actually all on the parents shoulders, not the schools.

[CanOfCorn]

And honestly, has this happened more lately? I mean if you factor in the amount of students on campuses. Here in Austin, there's still the creepy Charles Whitman vibe and that was in 1966. People have snapped through the years. It's nothing new.

Edited February 15, 2008 by CanOfCorn

[kapkomet]

Individuals are allowed to express whatever belief they want. I remember "prayer by the (flag) pole" at Lockport. I'm pretty sure a teacher even lead the group. But it was outside of class. It was mandatory, it wasn't forced, and it wasn't part of the official school day.

 

If a student wants to say a prayer themselves, or carry a Bible, no one is stopping them. If you're a teacher, your job isn't to proselytize your students, so you shouldn't be including prayer as part of your cirriculum.

I agree with that. But if I were in class and choose to say a prayer before a test, I shouldn't get kicked out of school for it, either. And there's been cases where that's happened, and it's a shame.

[kapkomet]

i actually agree with you on that - i just i don't think there should be organized prayer in school. It shouldn't be led by teachers or anything like that. And so, if it isn't led by teachers, then it's not an issue of whether God is in school or not, but whether God is in that individual kid's life. He or she will decide whether he/she wants to pray at school or whatever else and so thusly, it's actually all on the parents shoulders, not the schools.

Right, exactly. I just said this in reply to strangesox. Hey, I think we all sort of agree on something.

[CanOfCorn]

I agree with that. But if I were in class and choose to say a prayer before a test, I shouldn't get kicked out of school for it, either. And there's been cases where that's happened, and it's a shame.

 

No you shouldn't, but it also shouldn't be noticeable by the other students.

[YASNY]

But why can't things like this be decided on the community level. If the community wants to have an invocation before a High School graduation, why should the fed be able to say no, that's not allowed? A pregame team prayer before a football game. Everyone wouldn't be forced to participate, if the chose not to.

[kapkomet]

No you shouldn't, but it also shouldn't be noticeable by the other students.

No, it shouldn't cause a disruption. That's where it crosses a line. But so does distrupting class by flipping off the teacher. Disruptions are disruptions, no matter what the cause.

[StrangeSox]

But why can't things like this be decided on the community level. If the community wants to have an invocation before a High School graduation, why should the fed be able to say no, that's not allowed? A pregame team prayer before a football game. Everyone wouldn't be forced to participate, if the chose not to.

 

Bill of Rights, Amendment 1.

 

The government simply has no place in religion, and religion has no place in the government.

[Reddy]

But why can't things like this be decided on the community level. If the community wants to have an invocation before a High School graduation, why should the fed be able to say no, that's not allowed? A pregame team prayer before a football game. Everyone wouldn't be forced to participate, if the chose not to.

 

because it's disregarding the fact that there may be some individuals who dont believe in said prayer/invocation and they shouldn't be forced to either go through that or pretend they believe it to fit in.

[Reddy]

Right, exactly. I just said this in reply to strangesox. Hey, I think we all sort of agree on something.

 

how crazy is that??? haha

[kapkomet]

Bill of Rights, Amendment 1.

 

The government simply has no place in religion, and religion has no place in the government.

I have a different interpretation of the first amendment then you do.

[YASNY]

Bill of Rights, Amendment 1.

 

The government simply has no place in religion, and religion has no place in the government.

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

 

Congress has not made any law respecting the establishment of religion. But the SCOTUS has prohibited the free exercise thereof.

[StrangeSox]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

 

Congress has not made any law respecting the establishment of religion. But the SCOTUS has prohibited the free exercise thereof.

 

How so? How has the government impeded your personal ability to freely exercise your religion?

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

It's not about God. Sometimes people who are brought up in insanely religious families go apesh*t as well. Personally, it's situations like this that make me wonder why so many people are against stricter firearm regulations. i fully support hunters rights, but why do we need handguns and automatic weapons? both were ONLY designed to kill PEOPLE. There is NO reason an average civilian should need or have either.

 

that's where people don't get it.

 

Religion = Rules

 

The Gospel = Freedom from those rules

 

 

So, even though people seem incredibly "religious" they may not be any better off than an atheist in relation to their proximity to God. So yes, it is a God issue.

 

 

[Mplssoxfan]

I agree with that. But if I were in class and choose to say a prayer before a test, I shouldn't get kicked out of school for it, either. And there's been cases where that's happened, and it's a shame.

I think it was George Will who said, "As long as there are math tests, there will be prayer in school."

 

Any teacher who leads a prayer should be disciplined, just as any teacher who stops a student from praying should be disciplined.

[Mplssoxfan]

But why can't things like this be decided on the community level. If the community wants to have an invocation before a High School graduation, why should the fed be able to say no, that's not allowed? A pregame team prayer before a football game. Everyone wouldn't be forced to participate, if the chose not to.

Simple answer is that there is Federal money involved. When the Feds fund things, they get a say.

 

If the kids want to pray before a game, they can. It just can't be sponsored in any way by the school.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I don't know if it's a God in or God out of school thing, but I think the trend for every Generation to disassociate themselves with their parents generation and the norms and traditions that they support has led us to where we are. This is all fueled by the technological advancements of the TV, the Computer, and the Internet.

 

Each successive generation has rejected the idea of "community" and taken on the cause of the individual. This has led us to the "whatever" generation, the "my so called life" generation, etc. This pace has been quickened by the above technologies.

 

What is interesting is that inside all of us is the longing for community. You can see it in the shows we watch Friends, Seinfeld, Cheers, Scrubs ...and throughout our culture....just not in our expectations.

 

We have a desire and a longing to interact with community, yet we say "no way!" to the concept that sometimes it's better for the community to help shape ourselves over our own abilities to do so. In other words, the people you love and respect should have every right to call you out for the crazy things you do.

 

 

 

 

a sub conversation I'd like to talk about is the role the church has played..or rather the lack of role the church has played over the past 50 years in setting the culture of community. Churches have allowed themselves to become little islands within their castle walls. What I would like to see is more churches tearing down their protective barriers and interacting with their neighbors in relevant ways and set an example of caring just to care about people; be vulnerable because that is how we learn and change....so that people can learn and change.

 

anyway, another time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Reddy]

that's where people don't get it.

 

Religion = Rules

 

The Gospel = Freedom from those rules

So, even though people seem incredibly "religious" they may not be any better off than an atheist in relation to their proximity to God. So yes, it is a God issue.

 

from your perspective

 

[Harry Chappas]

Each successive generation has rejected the idea of "community" and taken on the cause of the individual. This has led us to the "whatever" generation, the "my so called life" generation, etc. This pace has been quickened by the above technologies.

 

anyway, another time.

 

I think you are right on the money. I believe the main focal point of all of this stems from a lack of respect for life and one another. Look, I am not a tree hugging, anti-abortion hippiee but I beleive that the moral fiber of scoiety is shot and community and parental upbringing is part of it. Society is driven by artifcal ideals implemented through sources outside of the home currently. I believe the deteriation of he family unit through divorce and single parenting has placed the role of instilling values in children now a days on external sources. Drive by shootings and random senseless violence has been around those that live in poverty for years. I am quite certain the first drive by shooting is not a result of a video game but from a lacking of good moral fiber. Kids today are left unattended to learn from sources outside of the home and if these sources send a negative message negative results will happen. Kids and teenagers that have no family strength or communal bond through church, school or friendship with positive influence are lost.

 

Without the village a child can not be raised.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Jenks Heat