Let the drama that is Joe Crede begin

[pale_hose]

What are the chances of getting rid of Crede in mid March for an average starting pitcher....doesnt need to be anything too special, but someone to solidify the 4th or 5th spot in our rotation. Are they still talking w/ the Giants for Lowry or Hennessey?

[jackie hayes]

Health issues? Joe had back surgery and is healed. It isn't a career ending issue as it might have been 10-20 years ago

Well, let's see what Joe had to say in 2006:

 

"I never want to have surgery on anything, especially in the back area. But they sound pretty confident that it's a small surgery, that it won't have any long term effects. They say it will make you feel better, but there's also other stuff that could go wrong with it, too. ... It's something I obviously want to avoid but if it comes to it, it comes to it."

 

Link. Sure, sounds like nothing.

 

We really don't know. If this were a simple surgery, in & out & healed, he would have done it before last season. But this isn't tonsillitis.

[Kalapse]

I think the Sox should be looking to the future with Fields as a DH/3B/1B/LF type player and Crede at 3B. Thome is what 37 yrs old now? He might only have a couple left before retirement. We have traded too much talent away from this team and need to think of the future. Reports on our farm system indsicate we have no one ready to step up to the bigs for at least 2-3 or so years.

And in this plan for the future where the Sox keep Crede, what becomes of Josh Fields for the next 2 seasons while Thome is still on the roster? AAA? Some sort of crazy rotation between he, Swisher, Quentin, Owens, Konerko and Thome? Yeah it seems like a good idea to dick around with your most promising young position player during the most important developmental years of his career.

 

And it's just good to know that western medicine has become so advanced that a chronic condition can be permanently cured with 1 simple surgery. How many back surgeries has Mike Sweeney had? Seems like it's worked out pretty well for him.

[greg775]

I wonder if the trib or sun times has researched any other baseball players and how they do following back surgery.

Man, all the batting practice these guys take and the hacks in games and the grounders crouching over, I can't imaging it not flaring this season.

Ditto Thome.

That's my only concern about Crede. I'd love him to be a Sox forever if he's healthy.

[witesoxfan]

Actually, from what the resident doctor has said, this surgery is actually a pretty small deal, and that Crede should be good. That's not to say it's not going to be a chronic condition, just that he should be fine for this year.

 

Not to be a complete devil's advocate or anything, but just saying...I'm not about to sign him to a 5 year deal, just that he should be pretty productive, given that he's coming back from a year off, this year.

 

Also, jackie, what bighurt said

[Dick Allen]

And in this plan for the future where the Sox keep Crede, what becomes of Josh Fields for the next 2 seasons while Thome is still on the roster? AAA? Some sort of crazy rotation between he, Swisher, Quentin, Owens, Konerko and Thome? Yeah it seems like a good idea to dick around with your most promising young position player during the most important developmental years of his career.

 

And it's just good to know that western medicine has become so advanced that a chronic condition can be permanently cured with 1 simple surgery. How many back surgeries has Mike Sweeney had? Seems like it's worked out pretty well for him.

I don't think Mike Sweeney has ever had back surgery. Sandy Alomar Jr. had back surgery almost identical to Crede's and never had back issues again.

[The Beast]

Look at their roster. It's pretty self explanatory.

Scraps. Crede is worth very little right now.

I was reading a bit on Crede in the Trib today---when might we expect him to be dealt (if he is to be dealt)?

[jackie hayes]

Actually, from what the resident doctor has said, this surgery is actually a pretty small deal, and that Crede should be good. That's not to say it's not going to be a chronic condition, just that he should be fine for this year.

 

Not to be a complete devil's advocate or anything, but just saying...I'm not about to sign him to a 5 year deal, just that he should be pretty productive, given that he's coming back from a year off, this year.

 

Also, jackie, what bighurt said

I don't know that a year off matters so much, especially when the layoff after surgery might mean his back isn't as strong as it usually is. And I still don't buy that this is a "pretty small deal". Why would Crede "obviously want to avoid" some minor procedure? Why would he have to prove his health in st if he's pretty much guaranteed to be good to go?

 

I can only find one study on microdiscectomy on athletes, and it simply follows a small group (14) of college athletes who had the procedure, but it seems to be cited in other places. 9 of 10 athletes who had single-level microdiscectomy continued playing, but all of the 3 double-level microdiscectomy patients retired early. I don't know which one Crede had, but he was having trouble with two discs in his back.

 

As for performance, I prefer to look at more recent years when looking forward. Inge was basically league-average for the three years after he stopped catching. Last year, yes, he was bad. But even on career numbers, Inge has an ops+ of 85, Crede has an ops+ of 92. It's not a night-and-day difference.

 

And Inge has become a premier defensive 3b. Haven't most metrics had him as the top AL defensive 3b for the past two seasons? I just think everyone's a little too quick in dismissing him.

 

Then again, it's Sabean. I'm still amazed he didn't resign Feliz for 3 years.

[elrockinMT]

Well can you give us the rest of your prospectus on the recovery doctor, or are you speaking as a member of the Joe Crede 4 life fan club. He is going away. I suggest you get used to that before you become like the Rowand fan club.

 

 

I like Aaron Rowand too

[greg775]

Nice post Jackie. Good info. I like both Crede and Fields.

[Dick Allen]

I don't know that a year off matters so much, especially when the layoff after surgery might mean his back isn't as strong as it usually is. And I still don't buy that this is a "pretty small deal". Why would Crede "obviously want to avoid" some minor procedure? Why would he have to prove his health in st if he's pretty much guaranteed to be good to go?

 

I can only find one study on microdiscectomy on athletes, and it simply follows a small group (14) of college athletes who had the procedure, but it seems to be cited in other places. 9 of 10 athletes who had single-level microdiscectomy continued playing, but all of the 3 double-level microdiscectomy patients retired early. I don't know which one Crede had, but he was having trouble with two discs in his back.

 

As for performance, I prefer to look at more recent years when looking forward. Inge was basically league-average for the three years after he stopped catching. Last year, yes, he was bad. But even on career numbers, Inge has an ops+ of 85, Crede has an ops+ of 92. It's not a night-and-day difference.

 

And Inge has become a premier defensive 3b. Haven't most metrics had him as the top AL defensive 3b for the past two seasons? I just think everyone's a little too quick in dismissing him.

 

Then again, it's Sabean. I'm still amazed he didn't resign Feliz for 3 years.

IIRC the danger in Crede's surgery wasn't if it would take or anything like that, but rather the delacacy of the back that nerves could be damaged in the process or something along those lines. It appears he's OK. I really don't know how long Crede's back has been an issue. It is possible its been a problem his entire major league career, and possible he is now healthier than he has ever been. I think the White Sox will really regret letting him go if they get garbage in return.

[YASNY]

IIRC the danger in Crede's surgery wasn't if it would take or anything like that, but rather the delacacy of the back that nerves could be damaged in the process or something along those lines. It appears he's OK. I really don't know how long Crede's back has been an issue. It is possible its been a problem his entire major league career, and possible he is now healthier than he has ever been. I think the White Sox will really regret letting him go if they get garbage in return.

 

You've to keep in mind that Boras fully intends to take Joe into free agency.

[Balta1701]

You've to keep in mind that Boras fully intends to take Joe into free agency.

And despite all Joe's kind words after 2005, the White Sox knew this all the way back in Crede's initial years. Which is why they drafted Fields in the first place, because they circled 2008 on the Calendar and saw that Joe was walking at the end of this year no matter what, so it made sense to have someone ready so that he could be dealt.

 

Yes, it'll really suck if we let Joe go for Nothing. But think about this...The Phillies had 2 very good 1b men. They traded the older one for vastly less than he should have been worth due to injuries, and are still paying part of his contract. But they seem pretty happy with the results. And it mainly has to do with the fact that they had a very good player taking his place.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Balta1701

[2nd_city_saint787]

I wouldnt mind giving up crede for nothing as long as we dont have to pick up any of his salary. The sox have no plans for him this year and with boras as his agent the sox dont have any future plans for him. Only way i dont ship him out is if we see his back is fine and we make a trade in the outfield or trade kong or thome. Which if he is indeed healthy and can put up the numbers he did a few years back I wouldnt be against trading an outfield piece or PK/thome if it gets us a solid SP. But since i dont see us doing that then i say trade him and his salary away and use the money to take a chance on a Colon or a Garcia.

 

honestly if we can free up some salary to get one of the 2 above mentioned and they pitch like we know they can and count returns to form then i can see us making a serious run for a wild card position

Edited February 18, 2008 by 2nd_city_saint787

[Texsox]

Personally I'd rather move Fields and Contreras elsewhere for a starter (not necessarily in the same deal) but if you packaged Fields with some prospects you could get a very good starter in return, and than move Contreras off the books which would enable you to resign Crede to a 3 year 21M deal with incentives that could push it into the 30-33M range. I don't know if that is not enouhg money for Crede, but I think it would benefit the Sox (but that is because I would do almost anything to get another starter here and Jose elsewhere).

 

 

While the team can not "go around the player's agent" I believe the agent is bound to present all offers to his client. If Joe wants to test the waters, he should. It is not like the team would hang on to him if they had a better option.

[ptatc]

IIRC the danger in Crede's surgery wasn't if it would take or anything like that, but rather the delacacy of the back that nerves could be damaged in the process or something along those lines. It appears he's OK. I really don't know how long Crede's back has been an issue. It is possible its been a problem his entire major league career, and possible he is now healthier than he has ever been. I think the White Sox will really regret letting him go if they get garbage in return.

 

It's pretty rare that a nerve is injured during a microdisectomy. The success rate of this surgery is high if the patint is chosen properly. Crede fit the criteria for this procedure. One of the first professional athletes to have it was Joe Montana. He had it toward the end of his 49er career.

 

The surgery and recovery for the surgery is relatively easy. There is minimal invasion of tissues and he had been on a rehab program prior to surgery so he was strong. The significant issue is wear and tear on the spine. The constant bending during fielding and rotation swinging a bat will continue to put and excessive amount of force on already weakened tissue. His injury and subsequent surgery will definitely shorten his career. Once you have a lumbar spine problem it is a question of managing it. It never totally goes away. He may be mostly painfree for 2 years or 8 years but it will eventually return. I hope for Joe's sake that he can play at least another 6-8 years. He is one of the good guys in the game.

[jackie hayes]

It's pretty rare that a nerve is injured during a microdisectomy. The success rate of this surgery is high if the patint is chosen properly. Crede fit the criteria for this procedure. One of the first professional athletes to have it was Joe Montana. He had it toward the end of his 49er career.

 

The surgery and recovery for the surgery is relatively easy. There is minimal invasion of tissues and he had been on a rehab program prior to surgery so he was strong. The significant issue is wear and tear on the spine. The constant bending during fielding and rotation swinging a bat will continue to put and excessive amount of force on already weakened tissue. His injury and subsequent surgery will definitely shorten his career. Once you have a lumbar spine problem it is a question of managing it. It never totally goes away. He may be mostly painfree for 2 years or 8 years but it will eventually return. I hope for Joe's sake that he can play at least another 6-8 years. He is one of the good guys in the game.

I was hoping you'd make it into this thread. I wanted to ask -- since Crede was having trouble with two discs, does that mean he would have had the double-level procedure? I can't find any definitive info on this.

[ptatc]

I was hoping you'd make it into this thread. I wanted to ask -- since Crede was having trouble with two discs, does that mean he would have had the double-level procedure? I can't find any definitive info on this.

 

You know me I live for the injury aspect.

 

Yes, that's exactly what it means. It is obviously more involved than a single level but again if it could be done as a partial microdiscectomy the tissue involvement was minimal and he had a better chance for a full recovery (which he has). He should be fine for awhile. Hermie worked with him to make him aware of his spine during fielding and batting. He just needs to be vigilant to make the most of his career before he has problems again.

[jackie hayes]

You know me I live for the injury aspect.

 

Yes, that's exactly what it means. It is obviously more involved than a single level but again if it could be done as a partial microdiscectomy the tissue involvement was minimal and he had a better chance for a full recovery (which he has). He should be fine for awhile. Hermie worked with him to make him aware of his spine during fielding and batting. He just needs to be vigilant to make the most of his career before he has problems again.

Believe me, it's appreciated. I wish I understood more of this.

 

But by "full recovery", you mean a temporary one, right? Because it sounds like this WILL come up again. As in, he'll probably make it through 2008, but the clock's ticking. And given that it was a double-level procedure, probably faster than it otherwise would. Is that right?

[ptatc]

Believe me, it's appreciated. I wish I understood more of this.

 

But by "full recovery", you mean a temporary one, right? Because it sounds like this WILL come up again. As in, he'll probably make it through 2008, but the clock's ticking. And given that it was a double-level procedure, probably faster than it otherwise would. Is that right?

 

i would agree with all of that. His recovery should be full for now. however, there is no telling how long he will be painfree or near painfree. If he's smart he will continue with the exercises and maintain his full level of activity for as long as possible. But eventually he will have problems again, it may not be during his playing career but I would bet that they will be.