Kosovo Declares Independence

[SoxFan1]

Yay.

[thedoctor]

cnn.com

[DBAHO]

Upset SoxFan1 about this I see.

 

I don't know a whole lot about the situation, but I heard Serbia's government weren't too happy about it on the news this morning.

[SoxFan1]

Upset SoxFan1 about this I see.

 

I don't know a whole lot about the situation, but I heard Serbia's government weren't too happy about it on the news this morning.

Essentially, it's a unilateral declaration which defies UN Charter Resolution 1244 which guarantees Serbia is to keep territorial integrity and sovereignty of Kosovo. It's also against common international law. Russia is our main backer in the situation.

 

Worst part about this is that Kosovo's PM Hashim Thaci is a former general of the KLA. The media is having a field day with this as well. Serb youths in Belgrade have been going on "rampages" while nothing is said about Albanian separatists. If Kosovo becomes recognized internationally, then Europe is going to explode because of all the other separatists in places in the former USSR, Turkey, former Yugoslavia, etc.

[Rex Kickass]

It's really a declaration of reality. Although technically part of Serbia, Kosovo has had little to do with the Serbian government and has been out of its control for nearly a decade now.

 

However, sometimes reality has no business in politics. I think that although this separation was probably inevitable, the way Kosovo's leaders are trying to make this happen, coupled with Europe's response is pretty poor.

[SoxFan1]

It's really a declaration of reality. Although technically part of Serbia, Kosovo has had little to do with the Serbian government and has been out of its control for nearly a decade now.

 

However, sometimes reality has no business in politics. I think that although this separation was probably inevitable, the way Kosovo's leaders are trying to make this happen, coupled with Europe's response is pretty poor.

The reality only really stems back to post WWII Yugoslavia with Josip Broz Tito as the President. He never allowed Serbian refugees to return to Kosovo after the war, which gave Kosovo the Albanian majority that it has today. The NATO bombings/KFOR hasn't helped much either.

 

The thing I would argue here is that a 8 or 9 years isn't enough to grant a people a country. Kosovo is the cradle of the Serbian civilization. Most of the Serbian Orthodox monasteries and churches are still in Kosovo, if they haven't been destroyed or burned down. Kosovo has belonged to Serbia forever, its never belonged to Albania.

[kapkomet]

The reality only really stems back to post WWII Yugoslavia with Josip Broz Tito as the President. He never allowed Serbian refugees to return to Kosovo after the war, which gave Kosovo the Albanian majority that it has today. The NATO bombings/KFOR hasn't helped much either.

 

The thing I would argue here is that a 8 or 9 years isn't enough to grant a people a country. Kosovo is the cradle of the Serbian civilization. Most of the Serbian Orthodox monasteries and churches are still in Kosovo, if they haven't been destroyed or burned down. Kosovo has belonged to Serbia forever, its never belonged to Albania.

Ok, so if it's "belonged to Serbia", yet, they are now declaring independence, are they doing to to acknowledge their Albanian heritage (yes, I use that loosely).

 

And I don't know, I'm asking so I learn something.

[knightni]

There are a lot of people in that area that have been controlled by someone other than themselves for years without their request.

[SoxFan1]

Ok, so if it's "belonged to Serbia", yet, they are now declaring independence, are they doing to to acknowledge their Albanian heritage (yes, I use that loosely).

 

And I don't know, I'm asking so I learn something.

To be totally honest, I don't understand why they are declaring independence. They are Albanian, sure, but there is no such thing as a Kosovar. That term simply means someone who is a resident of Kosovo. Their statehood would only create another retarded subgroup. Kosovo is divided between Serbians and Albanians. Kosovars don't exist, but if independence is recognized, then it just clumps people together that shouldn't be. Independence is pointless unless it is followed by some sort of union with Albania. If Republika Srpska in Bosnia became independent, it would be pointless as well, because they are just Serbians.

 

I'm also quite stumped as to why the US is so pro-independence for Kosovo. The Albanians have terrorist training camps in southern regions of Kosovo and Albania that are tied to Bin Laden.

 

There are a lot of people in that area that have been controlled by someone other than themselves for years without their request.

Well, following WWII, Albanians became the majority. There was still a big Serbian population until the NATO bombings when many Serbs fled north. Following that, the UN took control over Kosovo, but the government was run completely by Albanians.

 

On a totally personal note, I feel as though a part of me has died. My father is from Kosovo, as is my godfather and his family, and most of my immediate family has been forced to move to Central Serbia in order to avoid Albanian separatists. My families house was seized by Albanians in Pec, where I lived for a short time when I was younger. Some of the churches that I visited and neighborhoods where I used to play in are now totally destroyed. And the cradle of my people's civilization, the territory that bears our churches and our religion, the land we defended against the Turks, the land we defended against the Austro-Hungarians, is now, for the time being, in the wrong hands. It saddens me deeply.

[KipWellsFan]

To be totally honest, I don't understand why they are declaring independence. They are Albanian, sure, but there is no such thing as a Kosovar. That term simply means someone who is a resident of Kosovo. Their statehood would only create another retarded subgroup. Kosovo is divided between Serbians and Albanians. Kosovars don't exist, but if independence is recognized, then it just clumps people together that shouldn't be. Independence is pointless unless it is followed by some sort of union with Albania. If Republika Srpska in Bosnia became independent, it would be pointless as well, because they are just Serbians.

 

I'm also quite stumped as to why the US is so pro-independence for Kosovo. The Albanians have terrorist training camps in southern regions of Kosovo and Albania that are tied to Bin Laden.

Well, following WWII, Albanians became the majority. There was still a big Serbian population until the NATO bombings when many Serbs fled north. Following that, the UN took control over Kosovo, but the government was run completely by Albanians.

 

On a totally personal note, I feel as though a part of me has died. My father is from Kosovo, as is my godfather and his family, and most of my immediate family has been forced to move to Central Serbia in order to avoid Albanian separatists. My families house was seized by Albanians in Pec, where I lived for a short time when I was younger. Some of the churches that I visited and neighborhoods where I used to play in are now totally destroyed. And the cradle of my people's civilization, the territory that bears our churches and our religion, the land we defended against the Turks, the land we defended against the Austro-Hungarians, is now, for the time being, in the wrong hands. It saddens me deeply.

 

 

So why do the Serbs get to be a real people but the Kosovars don't count? Is time the only requirement in becoming a people?

[Balta1701]

The U.S. has recognized Kosovo as an independent nation. Britain and France have done the same, and Germany says sort of "We're working on it". Greece, Spain, and Romania say they will not do so.

[SoxFan1]

So why do the Serbs get to be a real people but the Kosovars don't count? Is time the only requirement in becoming a people?

Serbs are a real people. Albanians are a real people. Kosovars are not, it's pretty simple. And time is not the only requirement, because Kosovo has belonged to Serbia far longer than it has "belonged" to Albanians.

 

The most ironic part of this is that all of the Yugoslav wars were started by people claiming Serbs wanted a Greater Serbia. Well, an independent Kosovo is the 1st step to a Greater Albania. When regions of Montenegro and Macedonia start to secede as well, it'll be clear what is going on. I always thought the US was anti-Muslim extremists/separatists?

 

The U.S. has recognized Kosovo as an independent nation. Britain and France have done the same, and Germany says sort of "We're working on it". Greece, Spain, and Romania say they will not do so.

Serbia's main backers at the moment are Russia, China, Greece, Romania, and Spain.

[knightni]

So, in essence, Kosovars are imaginary eh?

 

Kurds are imaginary, in fact, Americans were imaginary too I guess, in the eyes of England in the late 1700s.

[SoxFan1]

So, in essence, Kosovars are imaginary eh?

 

Kurds are imaginary, in fact, Americans were imaginary too I guess, in the eyes of England in the late 1700s.

I'm not saying they are imaginary, never did. A "Kosovar" will basically be characterized as an Albanian living in Kosovo. Would you have a different definition of it? Just like there are still people in the Balkans who consider themselves Yugoslavia, or even Bosniaks.

 

And in the late 1700's, Americans were Indians.

[southsideirish71]

The U.S. has recognized Kosovo as an independent nation. Britain and France have done the same, and Germany says sort of "We're working on it". Greece, Spain, and Romania say they will not do so.

 

Maybe Britain should spend a little less time recognizing countries like this, and more work on unifying countries that they sacked and split apart. God forbid if the commonwealth dropped 6 counties.

 

/rant

Edited February 19, 2008 by southsideirish71

[knightni]

I'm not saying they are imaginary, never did. A "Kosovar" will basically be characterized as an Albanian living in Kosovo. Would you have a different definition of it? Just like there are still people in the Balkans who consider themselves Yugoslavia, or even Bosniaks.

 

And in the late 1700's, Americans were Indians.

 

I think not.

 

The Declaration was signed in 1776, the War of Independence ended in the 1780s and the US Constitution was drafted in 1789.

 

Like it or not, there were Americans who weren't Indians in the late 1700s.

 

A Native is an inhabitant of North America prior to 1620, an original American is a person of European descent who settled in the middle of North America after 1620 whose descendants were here when independence was declared.

 

Sound familiar?

 

 

 

 

 

[SoxFan1]

Sound familiar?

Well, since I was the first person in my family born here, and that was in 1989, I'm going to go with a no. Way to deviate from the topic though.

[knightni]

Well, since I was the first person in my family born here, and that was in 1989, I'm going to go with a no. Way to deviate from the topic though.

 

Well, your opinion is biased by your family background.

 

Yugoslavia as a country was a clusterf*** from the beginning. Only Soviet control kept everyone getting along. Once the Berlin Wall fell in '89, of course everyone went nuts and tried to kill each other. Kosovo is just another chapter in the continual splintering of that area. It's happening whether you as a Serbian person like it or not.

 

 

 

 

[Soxbadger]

I think what Slav is trying to get at is as follows:

 

I live in Chicago, therefore I can call myself a Chicagoan.

 

Chicago itself is not recognized as a nation, therefore my national idenity can not be Chicagoan.

 

But if Chicago declares independence and is recognized, my national identity becomes Chicagoan.

 

I think he is trying to point out that if these countries start to recognize every small state/city, that eventually you will have no "nations" left. Most of eastern europe is all messed up because of how boundary lines have been drawn over time.

 

As for the comment about supporting muslim extremists, we supported Saddam too. Why the US support's things is complex and most of the time has nothing to do with whether or not its "right", but more what supports our long term position.

 

My guess (and this is a complete guess), is that Russia has been annyoing the US lately, Kosovo moving out of serbia is a slap to the serb/slav's, thus we let them do it.

[knightni]

There are no true borders in southeastern Europe; only what the most recent guy with the gun and the cartographer says there are.

 

Our family moved all over that area because they were farmers.

 

They lived in Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovenia and Croatia.

 

It just depended on where the best land was for farming and who wasn't trying to kill them at the time.

[SoxFan1]

Yugoslavia as a country was a clusterf*** from the beginning. Only Soviet control kept everyone getting along. Once the Berlin Wall fell in '89, of course everyone went nuts and tried to kill each other. Kosovo is just another chapter in the continual splintering of that area. It's happening whether you as a Serbian person like it or not.

False. Tito held everything together until his death. Nationalistic thoughts were not acceptable. Partially due to communism, partially due to the fear of what Tito would do.

[Soxbadger]

Good Thing about Dictator's:

 

They can keep factions in line.

 

Bad thing about Dictator's:

 

They die. (Amongst other things)

[KipWellsFan]

I think what Slav is trying to get at is as follows:

 

I live in Chicago, therefore I can call myself a Chicagoan.

 

Chicago itself is not recognized as a nation, therefore my national idenity can not be Chicagoan.

 

But if Chicago declares independence and is recognized, my national identity becomes Chicagoan.

 

I think he is trying to point out that if these countries start to recognize every small state/city, that eventually you will have no "nations" left. Most of eastern europe is all messed up because of how boundary lines have been drawn over time.

 

As for the comment about supporting muslim extremists, we supported Saddam too. Why the US support's things is complex and most of the time has nothing to do with whether or not its "right", but more what supports our long term position.

 

My guess (and this is a complete guess), is that Russia has been annyoing the US lately, Kosovo moving out of serbia is a slap to the serb/slav's, thus we let them do it.

 

Well if that's what Slav is trying to say I disagree. Your nation does not have to be your state, and your state doesn't really have to be your nation. Considering the Canadian example, a majority of those residing in the province of Quebec consider themselves to be a nation. This nation being the "Québecois nation," which pretty much entails anyone who identifies with the french speaking culture and history of that region. And while a large number of Québecois want their own country a good number of them are satisfied and or proud to be part of the Québecois nation within Canada. It's kind of like being a Latin-American, you're proud of your identity as a latino but you're still proud to be an American and are loyal to the state.

Edited February 19, 2008 by KipWellsFan

[Soxbadger]

Well Kosovo only has 2million people and a total area of 4,000 squar miles.

 

Quebec has 4million people and a total area of 595,000 square feet.

 

For comparison, the state of NJ is 8,000 square miles.

 

The problem with your comparison is as following:

 

1) Slav is pointing out that Kosovoans are really Albanians (there is no distinct Kosovoan if you look up Kosovo the ethnicities are Albanian 92%, Serb 5.3%, 2.7% other)

 

2) Because there is no "kosovoan" unlike Quebecois, there is no nationality.

 

Slav is pointing out that the people in Kosovo for the most part still identify themselves as albanians or serbians, not as Kosovoans.

 

As for it being like a latin-american, no its not.

 

Latin-american's are not creating seperate states from the United States. The reason that the "american" part is attached is because they are joining us. Where as Kosovoans are breaking away from the 2 nationalities they normally identify with (albanian and serbian)

 

Or atleast thats what I see.

[SoxFan1]

Well Kosovo only has 2million people and a total area of 4,000 squar miles.

 

Quebec has 4million people and a total area of 595,000 square feet.

 

For comparison, the state of NJ is 8,000 square miles.

 

The problem with your comparison is as following:

 

1) Slav is pointing out that Kosovoans are really Albanians (there is no distinct Kosovoan if you look up Kosovo the ethnicities are Albanian 92%, Serb 5.3%, 2.7% other)

 

2) Because there is no "kosovoan" unlike Quebecois, there is no nationality.

 

Slav is pointing out that the people in Kosovo for the most part still identify themselves as albanians or serbians, not as Kosovoans.

 

As for it being like a latin-american, no its not.

 

Latin-american's are not creating seperate states from the United States. The reason that the "american" part is attached is because they are joining us. Where as Kosovoans are breaking away from the 2 nationalities they normally identify with (albanian and serbian)

 

Or atleast thats what I see.

Nail. Head. Contact.