Kosovo Declares Independence

[knightni]

I would bet that Quebecois are like 87% French, 10% English 3% Other.

 

In 1776, when Americans declared independence, they would have been classified as 84% English 10% French 4% German 2% Other.

 

What's the difference?

 

Another ethnic group living near or around Serbia fights to be independent from them. Croats, Bosnians, now Albanians living in Kosovo who will now be known as Kosovars.

 

I highly doubt that Kosovo will merge itself into Albania now, it's not like Albania is taking over southern Serbia, these people have been there for years.

[SoxFan1]

it's not like Albania is taking over southern Serbia

Ummm, yeah. That's kind of what independence does. Southern Serbia is Kosovo, and has always been. If you don't think they won't try to join Albania, then you're just wrong. This will all end in partitions of Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia, and Macedonia. You make it seem as if Albanians fought for the land or something. Tito + NATO + UN has gifted them that land since WWII.

 

[knightni]

"Ethnic cleansing" can be real annoying when it affects your popularity huh.

[Soxbadger]

knight,

 

I would bet that Quebecois are like 87% French, 10% English 3% Other.

 

But Quebec is not right next to France hence why it began to develop independently. Kosovo is right next to both Albania and Serbia, can you think of another nation that is comprised of 2 other nationalities that surround it, but has no nationality of its own?

 

In 1776, when Americans declared independence, they would have been classified as 84% English 10% French 4% German 2% Other.

 

What's the difference?

 

Well the difference is Britain set historical precedent in that they do not respect these type of unilateral declarations. When the US unilaterally declared independence from Great Britain, the result was the Revolutionary War. Great Britain felt that it was still in control of the United States and it did not respect our declaration. Thousands of people were killed in the fighting.

 

I think that at the end of the day that is the type of thing that most people want to prevent.

 

Im not saying that Kosovar's or whatever they are called may not exist, I am saying that when you unilaterally declare independence it sets a precedent. And I dont necessarily agree with that precedent.

 

Now Serbia, Russia, et al have to respond to these actions. Im not exactly comfortable where it puts the US on the world front. We have problems in the Middle East, the Balkans is another potential trouble spot, I dont really see the need for the US once again having to keep the peace when all sides could have tried to work out something....

 

But thats my opinion.

[knightni]

I see your point.

 

I also know that this region has been ruled in one way or another by Serbia for a long, long time and the breaking away that all the other areas to become (or re-become) independent from Serbian rule in the last 20 years was overdue.

 

[knightni]

Slavko, before this gets too deep I just want to say that while I respect you as an individual and as a sox fan, the country of your parents' origin has been unfortunately violent and oppressive to other groups in that area for many years.

 

I can see your reasoning behind this topic that it looks like Albania is stealing part of that country away.

But, the other ethnic groups in that region and all over the former Yugoslav areas are tired of being beaten down and attacked by the Serbian Army.

 

Certainly you can see the value in a semblance of peace?

 

[KipWellsFan]

Well Kosovo only has 2million people and a total area of 4,000 squar miles.

 

Quebec has 4million people and a total area of 595,000 square miles.

 

For comparison, the state of NJ is 8,000 square miles.

 

The problem with your comparison is as following:

 

1) Slav is pointing out that Kosovoans are really Albanians (there is no distinct Kosovoan if you look up Kosovo the ethnicities are Albanian 92%, Serb 5.3%, 2.7% other)

 

2) Because there is no "kosovoan" unlike Quebecois, there is no nationality. Slav is pointing out that the people in Kosovo for the most part still identify themselves as albanians or serbians, not as Kosovoans.

 

As for it being like a latin-american, no its not.

 

Latin-american's are not creating seperate states from the United States. The reason that the "american" part is attached is because they are joining us. Where as Kosovoans are breaking away from the 2 nationalities they normally identify with (albanian and serbian)

 

Or atleast thats what I see.

 

I wasn't trying to say the Quebecois, or Latino-Americans are like the Kosovars, I'm just responding to the notion that you have to have a country to have a legitimate nationality.

 

***

 

Because I simply don't know, do you guys think it would be appropriate to say that Kosovars see themselves as Albanians, just the same as those in the State of Albania? Or is this just a Serbian argument?

 

Either way having Kosovo fall under the jurisdiction of Serbia no longer seemed like a realistic option. Groups separate when they feel oppressed and are confident they can handle things on their own. Not only does Kosovo seem to satisfy those two conditions, there seems like a massive mandate from people within Kosovo to be independent. I imagine now that they're quasi-independent they won't want to give up powers to the state of Albania but will probably be within their sphere of influence, but they obviously were before the unilateral declaration of independence anyway.

 

I also think it would be fine if the Serbian areas of Kosovo chose to remain Serbian. If Serbia is divisible then so too is Kosovo. Of course that's a ideal situation in a perfectly democratic world. But if the region was perfectly democratic and rights oriented the regions could have all lived together under one umbrella in the first place.

Edited February 19, 2008 by KipWellsFan

[knightni]

The Kosovo/Serbia issue reminds me a lot of the Israel/Palestine issue.

 

[SoxFan1]

I see your point.

 

I also know that this region has been ruled in one way or another by Serbia for a long, long time and the breaking away that all the other areas to become (or re-become) independent from Serbian rule in the last 20 years was overdue.

Tito was a Croation, so up until his death in 1980, it was under a Croatian rule so to speak. Following that, Yugoslavia was able to stay relatively peaceful until the fall of the Berlin Wall, and then the dissolution of the USSR in 1991 pretty much put everything over the top. The transition from a communist state to a republic was very difficult but where do you get this idea that these states were under Serbian rule? You make these very broad statements that don't seem to hold much water. I don't understand where Serbians ruled over Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia...

 

Slavko, before this gets too deep I just want to say that while I respect you as an individual and as a sox fan, the country of your parents' origin has been unfortunately violent and oppressive to other groups in that area for many years.

 

I can see your reasoning behind this topic that it looks like Albania is stealing part of that country away.

But, the other ethnic groups in that region and all over the former Yugoslav areas are tired of being beaten down and attacked by the Serbian Army.

 

Certainly you can see the value in a semblance of peace?

Statements like this really upset me. You make it sound like Serbians were the aggressor of every conflict in the region. Who declared independence from Yugoslavia? Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia...not Serbia. I forgot that no Serbians were ever killed and that no violence was ever started by anyone else but Serbs. A semblance of peace? Come on now. Ever heard of Operation Storm? Ever heard about Jasenovac Camp? Ever heard of the UCK/KLA? The single greatest exodus of ANY people in the entire Yugoslav region was the exodus of Serbians from Croatian Krajina.

 

I wasn't trying to say the Quebecois, or Latino-Americans are like the Kosovars, I'm just responding to the notion that you have to have a country to have a legitimate nationality.

 

***

 

Because I simply don't know, do you guys think it would be appropriate to say that Kosovars see themselves as Albanians, just the same as those in the State of Albania? Or is this just a Serbian argument?

 

Either way having Kosovo fall under the jurisdiction of Serbia no longer seemed like a realistic option. Groups separate when they feel oppressed and are confident they can handle things on their own. Not only does Kosovo seem to satisfy those two conditions, there seems like a massive mandate from people within Kosovo to be independent. I imagine now that they're quasi-independent they won't want to give up powers to the state of Albania but will probably be within their sphere of influence, but they obviously were before the unilateral declaration of independence anyway.

 

I also think it would be fine if the Serbian areas of Kosovo chose to remain Serbian. If Serbia is divisible then so too is Kosovo. Of course that's a ideal situation in a perfectly democratic world. But if the region was perfectly democratic and rights oriented the regions could have all lived together under one umbrella in the first place.

Yes, it's totally factual that Kosovars see themselves as Albanian. And the Serbs there consider themselves Serbian as well. Your two conditions are very questionable as well. Albanians feel oppressed in Kosovo yet they have maintained a large majority there for 50+ years? Confident they can handle things on their own? Thats laughable. Kosovo is incredibly poor. Ther unemployment rate is greater than 50% and much of their government consists of former terrorist generals from the KLA, their Prime Minster being one of them. And of course they would have a massive mandate, 92% of the people there are Albanian. They will secede, and soon enough, after the immediate wave of independence is over, they will join Albania. Why else would they become independent? It creates an unnecessary subcategory of Slavic people and since the economy is so terrible, it would never be able to survive, or at least prosper, unless there is a greater power assisting it. Partitioning Kosovo might be the most logical thing to do in the long run, but for the immediate future, it likely means that much of the former Yugoslavia will be partitioned and new borders be made. Norther Kosovo and Republika Srpska would join Serbia, the Mostar region of Bosnia would join Croatia, Kosovo and regions of Macedonia/Montenegro would join Albania, and it would be a huge clusterf***.

[Rex Kickass]

Slav,

 

Your analysis of Kosovo forgets that there was a Kosovo prior to World War II. And for much of the last 500 years, it was not a part of Serbia, but rather a completely different part of the Ottoman Empire. It did not become part of Serbia until the late 19th century, when the Ottoman Empire was finally falling apart. So there has been a definite Kosovar identity for centuries. Just because Kosovo was not a republic of the Yugoslav Federation after its creation doesn't mean that it never existed.

 

In fact, when you talk about Tito, he never helped to create a republic there but did in fact basically give them enough autonomous power there that by the 1970's, Kosovo had enough of an administrative bureaucracy guaranteed in the 1974 constitution that it was a defacto republic. Enough that it had its own parliament which until 1989 was 70% ethnic Albanian.

 

I personally wish that this had been handled better. I believe in a people's self-determination through political, peaceful means when necessary and I don't particularly feel that the Kosovo process is either.

[Texsox]

I've learned more reading this thread then I would have in a classroom.

 

Thanks guys.

[SoxFan1]

Slav,

 

Your analysis of Kosovo forgets that there was a Kosovo prior to World War II. And for much of the last 500 years, it was not a part of Serbia, but rather a completely different part of the Ottoman Empire. It did not become part of Serbia until the late 19th century, when the Ottoman Empire was finally falling apart. So there has been a definite Kosovar identity for centuries. Just because Kosovo was not a republic of the Yugoslav Federation after its creation doesn't mean that it never existed.

 

In fact, when you talk about Tito, he never helped to create a republic there but did in fact basically give them enough autonomous power there that by the 1970's, Kosovo had enough of an administrative bureaucracy guaranteed in the 1974 constitution that it was a defacto republic. Enough that it had its own parliament which until 1989 was 70% ethnic Albanian.

 

I personally wish that this had been handled better. I believe in a people's self-determination through political, peaceful means when necessary and I don't particularly feel that the Kosovo process is either.

I'm well aware that Kosovo existed before WWII. I simply refer to that as the turning point of when a Serbian majority came a minority. Go back in time to 1389 when the Ottoman Turks were moving north. Who fought for Kosovo? It wasn't Albanians, because Albanians became independent from Turkey in 1912 I believe. Serbians inhabited the region since the 7th century. The Ottoman Empire wasn't able to seize Kosovo (for the most part) until the mid to late 1400's. The Ottomans left there mark on the region with bringing over the Muslim religion. Thats where we get modern-day Bosniaks. They were people who took up the Muslim religion so they wouldn't get killed. Albanians themselves branch off from Turks.

 

Basically everything shook itself out after the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Something like 1% of the entire empire was of the Muslim religion and Albanian or Turkish is not even listed as a recognized language of the empire. Following the dissolution, the Kingdom of Serbia was formed, Kosovo included. Going even further back, Raska was the first Serbian territory, and that included Prizren as well. Serbian Orthodox monasteries have been in the region since the early 13th century when St. Sava formed the Church.

 

And as far as a republic in Kosovo, I'm talking present day. I know very well that Tito made each state an autonomous region in Yugoslavia, but the unfair part of that is that he made 3 in Serbia (Vojvodina, Serbia, Kosovo).

[Soxbadger]

Because I simply don't know, do you guys think it would be appropriate to say that Kosovars see themselves as Albanians, just the same as those in the State of Albania? Or is this just a Serbian argument?

 

From what I can tell, Kosovar's consider their ethnicity to be albanian or serbian, there is no separate ethnicity for those in Kosovo. Also a telling point is that Kosovar's do not have their own language, they speak Albanian for the most part, they do not have their own currency.

 

http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/fs_99...svo_ethnic.html

 

If you notice, the United States govt does not once mention "Kosovars" as an entity to themselves. They are always referred to as "Albanian" kosovars.

 

Either way having Kosovo fall under the jurisdiction of Serbia no longer seemed like a realistic option. Groups separate when they feel oppressed and are confident they can handle things on their own. Not only does Kosovo seem to satisfy those two conditions, there seems like a massive mandate from people within Kosovo to be independent

 

Im not saying which side has the better claim to Kosovo, I am saying that the way Kosovo went about declaring its independence creates a very touchy situation.

 

Lets just throw out an example:

 

The media claims that eventually white people will be the minority in the US, so its likely that in a South Western state like AZ, New Mexico, Cali, Texas, that the latino population could be the majority.

 

If the majority of Texas voted to rejoin Mexico, and Texas declared its independence from the United States, would that be acceptable?

 

Your analysis of Kosovo forgets that there was a Kosovo prior to World War II. And for much of the last 500 years, it was not a part of Serbia, but rather a completely different part of the Ottoman Empire. It did not become part of Serbia until the late 19th century, when the Ottoman Empire was finally falling apart. So there has been a definite Kosovar identity for centuries.

 

Also do not forget that Texas only became a state in 1845, prior to that it had been a Spanish Colony and part of Mexico, so it definitely has its own identity.

 

Texas also declared its independence unilaterally from Mexico, once again the result of that declaration was a war.

 

My point is why did Kosovo unilaterally declare when in almost every case unilateral declaration of independence leads to war?

 

 

[Rex Kickass]

Because it can.

 

And there won't be war. UN peacekeepers are in the way of that.

 

The real reason the secession movement started in my opinion has everything to do with Milosevic's disrespect of all things not Serbian, including the Kosovar parliament's coup by the Serbian minority in 1989.

[Soxbadger]

Because it can.

 

And there won't be war. UN peacekeepers are in the way of that.

 

Might does not make right.

 

Just because a country can do something, does not mean that it is the best thing to do.

 

Kosovo is putting the United States in a precarious position with Russia (and my guess eventually China), and its likely both will end supporting Serbia, so Kosovo independence is not going to be that easy.

 

And there won't be war. UN peacekeepers are in the way of that.

 

Dont worry there wont be a war after the war to end all wars because we have a league of nations.

 

Dont worry there wont be any war after world war II because there is the UN.

 

So no one has died in a combat since 1918, because I was told there would be no more war...

 

 

[SoxFan1]

And there won't be war. UN peacekeepers are in the way of that.

Haha. You mean what KFOR is doing and what UNPROFOR did before it?

 

They did a great job protecting Serbian towns, churches, & monasteries in 2004.

[mr_genius]

Because it can.

 

And there won't be war. UN peacekeepers are in the way of that.

 

I don't know about that. If Russia is against this and they give weapons under the table to one side, what are UN peacekeepers going to do? Fight them? yea right, we'll see how long that lasts. Without the US carrying the vast majority of the work, the UN can't really fight off anyone IMO.

[Balta1701]

Don't think it's been posted yet but we have our first reports of post-declaration violence.

Violence rocked northern Kosovo on Tuesday as Serbs protesting the breakaway province's declaration of independence set off bombs and burned down a border post.

 

Kosovo Serbs destroy and burn UN vehicles on the checkpoint in Jarinje, on the Serbia-Kosovo border, on Tuesday.Kosovo Serbs destroy and burn UN vehicles on the checkpoint in Jarinje, on the Serbia-Kosovo border, on Tuesday.

 

One blast damaged several cars near a United Nations building in Kosovska Mitrovica, while two other hand grenade explosions hit deserted homes belonging to ethnic Albanians who had fled the northern town years ago. The town is a stronghold for ethnic Serbs within Albanian-majority Kosovo.

 

Demonstrators also burned down a control station on Kosovo's border with Serbia in the town of Jarinje, and 1,000 people attacked another border station in Zubin Potok, where customs police took shelter from the attacks in a tunnel.

 

Police requested support from the 16,000 NATO troops stationed in the country as part of the military alliance's Kosovo peacekeeping force. NATO said it had deployed troops to Jarinje and more were on the way to Zubin Potok.

 

No injuries were reported in any of the attacks.

[SoxFan1]

Don't think it's been posted yet but we have our first reports of post-declaration violence.

Yeah, Mitrovica is the heart of the situation right now. Serbs in the north and Albanians in the south are separated by a bridge over the Ibar River and things are getting tense.

 

But no worries, nothing is going to happen, NATO/UN peace keepers are there.

[Texsox]

If Texas decided to declare our independence, y'all would just move the wall 700 miles north

[Balta1701]

If Texas decided to declare our independence, y'all would just move the wall 700 miles north

If you guys gave enough money to the Bush libraries, you could make that happen without bothering with the whole statehood thing.

[SoxFan1]

This is getting ugly.

 

150,000 people protested in Beograd. US Embassy set on fire, Croatian embassy attacked. In Kosovo, protests continue in Mitrovica. UN posts were burned at the border, and then an Albanian was arrested after they found 3 RPG's in his house in one of the Serb enclaves.

[WilliamTell]

This is only the begining.

[WilliamTell]

Just blame the U.S. for this one..........it's always our fault.

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080224/ap_on_...u/serbia_kosovo

 

 

 

 

[kapkomet]

Just blame the U.S. for this one..........it's always our fault.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080224/ap_on_...u/serbia_kosovo

I'm sure it's all George W. Bush's fault. It always is.