Government's Role

[Reddy]

To avoid yet ANOTHER derailment, i decided to start a new topic...

 

to all of you who agreed w/ my statement in the healthcare thread (kap, santo, strange, etc) - think about what other areas i might be hinting at this applying to besides health care.

 

the government has NO right to dictate what we do with our own PERSONAL lives.

 

(hint: think hypocrisy.)

[lostfan]

If you're going with the whole "if you're not hurting anybody else" line of logic then for the most part I agree, I start to balk when it comes to allowing people to do hard-core narcotics though. Generally, most things you can think of where the government would have to step into our private lives (over-the-top sexual deviancy, child abuse, ripping people off on private transactions, just things off the top of my head) involve hurting someone else. Whether that be physical, emotional, financial, whatever.

[santo=dorf]

If you're going with the whole "if you're not hurting anybody else" line of logic then for the most part I agree, I start to balk when it comes to allowing people to do hard-core narcotics though. Generally, most things you can think of where the government would have to step into our private lives (over-the-top sexual deviancy, child abuse, ripping people off on private transactions, just things off the top of my head) involve hurting someone else. Whether that be physical, emotional, financial, whatever.

Just curious, what difference is there between someone staying at home getting f***ed up on smack and someone staying at home getting really drunk?

 

Provided they don't attack anyone or get behind a wheel, why would you care?

[lostfan]

Just curious, what difference is there between someone staying at home getting f***ed up on smack and someone staying at home getting really drunk?

 

Provided they don't attack anyone or get behind a wheel, why would you care?

Alcohol is bad for you but certain types of drugs are exponentially worse and can literally destroy your life in ways that alcohol can't. Yes if it's legal that pretty much eliminates the need for a black market but I still would feel kind of uneasy with giving people easy, completely legit ways to f*** their lives up, just go down to Walgreen's and get a couple hits of Ecstasy and a couple lines of coke. Although I do believe that making drugs legal isn't going to invite a new wave of drug addicts just b/c of the simple fact that it's legal.

 

A situation where a drug addict doesn't attack someone, drive, or do something generally unfavorable and harmful is just an ideal situation used for hypothetical arguments only though.

Edited February 24, 2008 by lostfan

[santo=dorf]

Alcohol is bad for you but certain types of drugs are exponentially worse and can literally destroy your life in ways that alcohol can't. Yes if it's legal that pretty much eliminates the need for a black market but I still would feel kind of uneasy with giving people easy, completely legit ways to f*** their lives up, just go down to Walgreen's and get a couple hits of Ecstasy and a couple lines of coke. Although I do believe that making drugs legal isn't going to invite a new wave of drug addicts just b/c of the simple fact that it's legal.

 

A situation where a drug addict doesn't attack someone, drive, or do something generally unfavorable and harmful is just an ideal situation used for hypothetical arguments only though.

Explain more please. I have seen the effects of alcohol abuse and drug abuse first hand (worked in a liquor store for 7 years) and I think the only abuses worse than alcohol is meth and crack abuse. I don't think either of those drugs should be legalize because they are manufactured with chemicals and not grown naturally. I'll have to find the link again, but even the USDA says alcohol withdrawl is 4 times worse than heroin withdrawl.

Edited February 24, 2008 by santo=dorf

[southsideirish71]

Explain more please. I have seen the effects of alcohol abuse and drug abuse first hand (worked in a liquor store for 7 years) and I think the only abuses worse than alcohol is meth and crack abuse. I don't think either of those drugs should be legalize because they are manufactured with chemicals and not grown naturally. I'll have to find the link again, but even the USDA says alcohol withdrawl is 4 times worse than heroin withdrawl.

 

There is a big difference in some of the side affects of certain drugs and alcohol. If you want to bring a comparison between marijuana and alcohol so be it. LSD/Heroin/Crack and others are not the same, and affect the person differently. I worked in law enforcement and my dealings with the person out of control on both tell me differently than your experience at the liquor store. Guys on alcohol dont see their dead relatives next to them telling them to cut themselves. Guys on alcohol dont believe spiders are on them and then need to take them all out. I would suggest that you visit a heroin halfway house and checkout those people before you use those statistics. I have seen both types of withdrawal and I can tell you that the USDA needs to spend some time dealing with these people if they made that comment. Alcohol is a nasty withdrawal, but seeing people go through Heroin withdrawal was an eye opener for me. They all wire your brain differently for addiction, but some of these are extremely dangerous and very hard to deal with.

 

 

 

[lostfan]

Explain more please. I have seen the effects of alcohol abuse and drug abuse first hand (worked in a liquor store for 7 years) and I think the only abuses worse than alcohol is meth and crack abuse. I don't think either of those drugs should be legalize because they are manufactured with chemicals and not grown naturally. I'll have to find the link again, but even the USDA says alcohol withdrawl is 4 times worse than heroin withdrawl.

I was beaten to saying this, but I don't buy that.

[santo=dorf]

At this point I'm going to take back what I said about the USDA because the department of agriculture doesn't focus on growing alochol or heroin (typo ) and I'm diggin all over looking for that one number, but can't find it specifically. However I will stand on how alcohol withdrawal is worse than heroin withdrawal.

 

Alcohol withdrawal can kill you. The effects of heroin withdrawl can kill you just like the effects of alcohol withdrawl.

Alcohol withdrawal

Alcohol withdrawal differs significantly from most other drugs because it can be directly fatal. While it is possible for heroin addicts, for instance, to die from other health problems made worse by the strain of withdrawal, an otherwise healthy alcoholic can die from the direct effects of withdrawal if it is not properly managed. Heavy consumption of alcohol reduces the production of GABA, which is a neuroinhibitor. An abrupt stop of alcohol consumption can induce a condition where neither alcohol nor GABA exists in the system in adequate quantities, causing uncontrolled firing of the synapses. This manifests as hallucinations, shakes, convulsions, seizures, and possible heart failure, all of which are collectively referred to as delirium tremens. All of these withdrawal issues can be safely controlled with a medically supervised detox.

source:wiki on alcoholism

So alcohol certain has a leg up on its withdrawl. I recall hearing about this one guy who used to come in every morning 9AM fresh, to get a liter of cheap ass Hannah and Hogg Vodka. One Sunday the clerk came in and say the guy dead up against the door because he puked up blood like crazy before he could get his vodka. One factor was the local laws to forbid any alcohol sales until 10 AM on Sundays.

 

Here's an interesting link on Heroin http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=heroin

Some notable points:

Heroin is very, very bad for you. Actually, there is very little to suggest that heroin per se is harmful. Medically speaking, middle- and upper-class users tend to be in average physical condition. There are documented cases of people with opiate-dependencies spanning decades without significant health problems as a result. There are four ways that heroin users tend to harm themselves, and none of them except overdosing is a direct result of diacetylmorphine itself. They are: overdose (which is vastly less common than popularly thought, but more on that below); adulterant toxicity; malnutrition; and damage caused by needle usage (diseases like HIV and hepatitis, vein damage, etc). Overdose, adulterants, and needle problems are all solvable and for the most part have fairly obvious solutions (which, ironically, the War on Some Drugs discourages). Malnutrition is more a problem for street users than more well off users, and causes most of the physical characteristics associated with "heroin chic" -- emaciation, sunken eyes, etc.

 

Consider, as well, the use of long-term methadone use as a treatment for heroin addiction. Methadone is a long acting opiate which actually has worse (and longer) withdrawal symptoms than heroin. In maintenance methadone treatment users are given regular doses in order to keep off withdrawal. They effectively substitute one addiction for the other. This treatment can last indefinitely. It's useful because methadone doesn't have the euphoric kick that heroin does, so users are disinclined to elevate doses or dosing intervals. Methadone is otherwise very similar to heroin and other narcotic opiates and body toxicity would make it a poor choice for prolonged treatment (I know this doesn't prove that heroin isn't harmful to the body, but that fact is well documented; I'm just trying to give common sense support to that notion).

 

Heroin withdrawal is so horrible that a junkie will do anything to avoid it.

While it is true that heroin withdrawal produces shivers, vomiting and cold sweats, short term withdrawal symptoms have been wildy exaggerated in the media. The experience for a hardcore user (someone who is using multiple times a day for months at a time) is likened to a somewhat nasty flu and lasts only 48-72 hours. Many long-term junkies will periodically abstain for a while, choosing to go through withdrawal in order to reduce their tolerance. Others are forced to kick abruptly when their connection dries up, they run out of money, they end up in jail, etc. This withdrawal period is far less intense, uncomfortable or dangerous than alcohol or barbituate withdrawal, which in some settings can kill the user.

 

There is a long-term withdrawal, lasting 20-40 weeks, however, that many users have a harder time with. Primary symptoms are an increased appetite for sleep and dysthymia (long-term, low grade depression).

 

However, as mentioned before, heroin use, even regular and long term usage, doesn't immediately imply the presence of these symptoms when a user kicks. And again, a more difficult factor is setting and socialization.

Did those symptons match the same that you witnessed SSI? I know I saw people shaking and yakking in the early morning morning hours making it clear they were in for their first buzz of the day. A side note, I don't think it's fair to lump crack, LSD and Heroin all together. They are each different types of drugs. They are hallucinogenics drugs.

Here's a good article from an M.D http://www.medical-journals.com/r0351b.htm

Since alcohol withdrawal can be complicated by seizures and delirium and is more severe in persons with more previous episodes of withdrawal or other illnesses, careful evaluation is essential. Such evaluation should include assessment for anemia, thrombocytopenia, and elevated liver-enzyme levels.7,8 Specific symptoms during sedative or alcohol withdrawal that may dictate pharmacotherapy include auditory and tactile disturbances and seizures

Edited February 24, 2008 by santo=dorf

[southsideirish71]

At this point I'm going to take back what I said about the USDA because the department of agriculture doesn't focus on growing alochol or heroin (typo ) and I'm diggin all over looking for that one number, but can't find it specifically. However I will stand on how alcohol withdrawal is worse than heroin withdrawal.

 

Alcohol withdrawal can kill you. The effects of heroin withdrawl can kill you just like the effects of alcohol withdrawl.

source:wiki on alcoholism

So alcohol certain has a leg up on its withdrawl. I recall hearing about this one guy who used to come in every morning 9AM fresh, to get a liter of cheap ass Hannah and Hogg Vodka. One Sunday the clerk came in and say the guy dead up against the door because he puked up blood like crazy before he could get his vodka. One factor was the local laws to forbid any alcohol sales until 10 AM on Sundays.

 

Here's an interesting link on Heroin http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=heroin

Some notable points:

 

Did those symptons match the same that you witnessed SSI? I know I saw people shaking and yakking in the early morning morning hours making it clear they were in for their first buzz of the day. A side note, I don't think it's fair to lump crack, LSD and Heroin all together. They are each different types of drugs. They are hallucinogenics drugs.

Here's a good article from an M.D http://www.medical-journals.com/r0351b.htm

 

You are missing the large open sores that they carry on certain parts of the body from overuse as a stick point. Intravenous drug users will start out rotating their stick points, but eventually they start to get tracks so they hide it. And start to overuse an area. You are also missing the part where the alcoholic doesnt have dirty needles on their person. Do you have any needles on you sir, No are you sure. Now granted the guy lies and you will find it, you just dont want to find it when it pierces your finger. Heroin addicts have these little other issues like that they share needles, and they use their own blood at times to mix with the heroin to mix it in quicker. They are a walking lab for aids and hepatitis. I would like the see the differences between the amount of users who become addicts in the heroin side versus the alcohol side. I havent run into too many recreational heroin use in my time, but you can find people who can knock back a few beers with their friends.

 

 

 

[santo=dorf]

You are also missing the part where the alcoholic doesnt have dirty needles on their person. Do you have any needles on you sir, No are you sure. Now granted the guy lies and you will find it, you just dont want to find it when it pierces your finger. Heroin addicts have these little other issues like that they share needles, and they use their own blood at times to mix with the heroin to mix it in quicker. They are a walking lab for aids and hepatitis. I would like the see the differences between the amount of users who become addicts in the heroin side versus the alcohol side. I havent run into too many recreational heroin use in my time, but you can find people who can knock back a few beers with their friends.

The needles are not an effect of the drug. Heroin can be consumed without needles. That's like blaming cigarettes for finger burns due to incorrectly using a lighter. I know San Fran is trying to help drug addicts from using dirty needles by providing them clean needles. Is it cheaper to treat a person for aids or hepatitis or give them clean needles? People can get AIDS or other diseases by having sex. Does that mean we shoud outlaw having sex? Absolutely not. People are responsible for making their OWN choices (I know, what a concept) and can decide if they want to use protection while having sex.

Other cultures do have recreational heroin in use and the reason why people here are more likely so have a few beers with some friends is because of the way it is advertised and the fact alcohol production is watched over by the FDA making sure the substances we put in our body will not directly hurt our body. Now if the drug adminstration could control manufacturers of heroin by setting requirements of potency and preventing other things from being put in there (some Dallas dealers are putting in night medicine calling it "cheese") and the public was well aware and had the accessability to clean needles, you would see an increase in recreational drug use in groups. Heroin, just like Marijuana, is non-toxic.

 

During the prohibition there would be no chance of me drinking with a few of my buddies because homemade concoctions were very dangerous and not examined by the government. How many people died of alcohol poisioning during the prohibition era? How many people die of moonshine consumption each year? Would you ever drink moonshine?

Edited February 24, 2008 by santo=dorf

[iamshack]

This is a great thread, guys. Keep it going.

 

The topic of legalizing drug use is an extremely interesting one. The idea of regulating products which are going to be consumed regardless of what lawmakers and enforcement agencies want to do to prevent them is such a controversial issue. Yet, we have seen the war on drugs fail for the past 20 years, so it's fairly clear that legal regulation is a topic which at the very least needs to be constantly re-examined. The tax dollars alone demands such.

 

I am in favor of legal regulation, however, the bag of worms opened up is something that sincerely must be discussed at length...

[lostfan]

I sit kind of on the fence, I don't really have a hard stance aside from being pro-legalization/regulation of marijuana and believing the prioritizing of the "war on drugs" is a waste of time and taxpayer money. When I argue I just kind of do it arbitrarily, I could argue either side if I wanted.

[santo=dorf]

I sit kind of on the fence, I don't really have a hard stance aside from being pro-legalization/regulation of marijuana and believing the prioritizing of the "war on drugs" is a waste of time and taxpayer money. When I argue I just kind of do it arbitrarily, I could argue either side if I wanted.

You could still legalize and regulate drugs and keep the DEA to attack the true criminals, the black market dealers. Right now tax payers are paying people 6 figures to go undercover and arrest non-violent people buying small amounts of a non-toxic drug. That's a waste of cash.

[iamshack]

You could still legalize and regulate drugs and keep the DEA to attack the true criminals, the black market dealers. Right now tax payers are paying people 6 figures to go undercover and arrest non-violent people buying small amounts of a non-toxic drug. That's a waste of cash.

 

Or you could take most of the power out of the hands of the black market dealers by simply taking away their market. Legalizing drugs and regulating them will put most of these people out of business, unless of course they try to take part as a supplier in a legal market (I doubt that could be possible considering their criminal rap sheets).