Oil prices reach new record high - $102/bbl

[iamshack]

Like I said...when you have a gushing wound, the sooner you treat it the better. We've had one for decades.

 

Well, you know how we do things in the United States that would require a change in our comfortable way of doing things, or something that might actually require some sort of sacrifice- we wait until we absolutely must act!

 

Honestly, we should have known it would take some combination of circumstances like we have now, what NSS was speaking to, what probably is "The Perfect Storm" of events that has forced not only the scientists and the government to recognize there is a crisis, but also the American people, and therefore, the huge corporations as well.

 

If there is a real beauty to Capitalism, it is that plenty of entrepreneurs will recognize that there is huge money to be made right now, and therefore, progress will occur. Such progress obviously would be easier made should the feds get their stuff together and realize that subsidies are necessary, rather than pulling current subsidies off the table (as was recently done), but I have full faith that Mr. Obama will get the ball rolling in a big way when he takes office in 11 months.

Edited February 28, 2008 by iamshack

[southsider2k5]

Well, you know how we do things in the United States that would require a change in our comfortable way of doing things, or something that might actually require some sort of sacrifice- we wait until we absolutely must act!

 

Honestly, we should have known it would take some combination of circumstances like we have now, what NSS was speaking to, what probably is "The Perfect Storm" of events that has forced not only the scientists and the government to recognize there is a crisis, but also the American people, and therefore, the huge corporations as well.

 

If there is a real beauty to Capitalism, it is that plenty of entrepreneurs will recognize that there is huge money to be made right now, and therefore, progress will occur. Such progress obviously would be easier made should the feds get their stuff together and realize that subsidies are necessary, rather than pulling current subsidies off the table (as was recently done), but I have full faith that Mr. Obama will get the ball rolling in a big way when he takes office in 11 months.

 

Guys like Al Gore for example...

[kapkomet]

Guys like Al Gore for example...

ZING!

 

[NorthSideSox72]

ZING!

Why is it even a zing? Its right on, and I personally see no problem with it. He's made some money from it, and he's also helped create money for some solid organizations. Sounds like a great example of capitalism indeed.

 

[kapkomet]

Why is it even a zing? Its right on, and I personally see no problem with it. He's made some money from it, and he's also helped create money for some solid organizations. Sounds like a great example of capitalism indeed.

Because when this was brought up before, how DARE we talk about Al Gore being a greedy capitalistic (read: opportunistic) bastard for making money on something to advance what is really an agenda to make money on? I don't want to debate it again, but that's how I took it.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Because when this was brought up before, how DARE we talk about Al Gore being a greedy capitalistic (read: opportunistic) bastard for making money on something to advance what is really an agenda to make money on? I don't want to debate it again, but that's how I took it.

OK. Well that's a different discussion - whether or not he's a saint versus just a capitalist with a charitable streak. In any case, he is definitely a good example of an opportunist in a capitalist society.

 

[kapkomet]

OK. Well that's a different discussion - whether or not he's a saint versus just a capitalist with a charitable streak. In any case, he is definitely a good example of an opportunist in a capitalist society.

And that I don't have a problem with...

 

I DO have a problem with it when he claims he's just being a "good guy advancing the cause of global warming"... bulls***. If he weren't making money hand over fist, I doubt it would be as appealing to him.

 

[Rex Kickass]

Thats why some of us were screaming about this when they started agressively cutting rates.

 

Here's my other stupid question: if introducing liquidity into the market by forcing rates lower is weakening the dollar, and since market trends over the last year have shown that oil tends to rise on a weaker dollar, and conventional wisdom is that the high price of oil is a large factor in the inflation problems that we are beginning to see.

 

So if higher interest rates would boost the dollar, wouldn't that give investors a reason to move away from oil speculation thereby easing a main inflation pressure?

[iamshack]

And that I don't have a problem with...

 

I DO have a problem with it when he claims he's just being a "good guy advancing the cause of global warming"... bulls***. If he weren't making money hand over fist, I doubt it would be as appealing to him.

 

Right. If I recall correctly, didn't Al Gore either sell or lease some of his land in Tennessee for coal mining?

[HuskyCaucasian]

Glad to see our president continues to be inept...

President Bush, saying he was unaware of predictions of $4-a-gallon gasoline in the coming months, told reporters Thursday that the best way to help Americans fend off high prices is for Congress to make his first-term tax cuts permanent.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/28/news/econo...dex.htm?cnn=yes

[Rex Kickass]

When George Bush talks taxes, he leaves off the S for Savings!

[southsider2k5]

Right. If I recall correctly, didn't Al Gore either sell or lease some of his land in Tennessee for coal mining?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_Pe...ore_family_ties

 

Gore family ties

 

Occidental's coal interests were represented for many years by attorney and former U.S. Senator Albert Gore, Sr., among others. Gore, who had a long-time close friendship with Hammer, became the head of its subsidiary Island Creek Coal Company upon his election loss in the Senate. Much of Oxy's coal and phosphate production was from Tennessee, the state Gore represented in the Senate, and Gore owned shares of stock in the company. Because the stock passed to his estate after his death, his son and executor at the time, former Vice President Albert Gore, Jr. received much criticism from environmentalists.[8][10] However, Al Gore Jr. did not exercise control over the stock, which was eventually sold when the estate closed.[11][12]

 

 

I do know that a lot of his family fortune was made by his dad in that same stock.

[iamshack]

OK. Well that's a different discussion - whether or not he's a saint versus just a capitalist with a charitable streak. In any case, he is definitely a good example of an opportunist in a capitalist society.

 

In reality, what does it really matter? Who cares if it helps accomplish the goal- which is getting green technology on the map?

 

We all know that the enormous challenge of getting this country running on more efficient and/or renewable energy sources isn't going to occur strictly out of the goodness of anyone's hearts.

Edited February 28, 2008 by iamshack

[southsider2k5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_Pe...ore_family_ties

I do know that a lot of his family fortune was made by his dad in that same stock.

 

More detail

 

http://www.gnn.tv/articles/2301/Some_Incon...s_About_Al_Gore

 

The inside track on "Cousin Albert"

 

Editor’s note: With the release of his global warming documentary An Inconvenient Truth, Al Gore has reemerged as one of the Democratic Party’s most high-profile stars. Despite his repeated statements that he is a “recovering politician” and is not interested in running for office, many believe Gore will throw his hat into the presidential ring come 2008. But despite his many years in high elected office, what do we really know about Gore’s politics? In this exclusive excerpt from his forthcoming book Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing (Disinfo, Jan. 2007), GNN’s Stephen Marshall talks with Gore Vidal about some inconvenient truths about his relative:

 

While his “cousin Albert” has effortlessly inhabited the vestments of a liberal politician, to hear Gore Vidal tell it, the former Vice President’s liberalism is merely a prop developed to bring him to the head of the Democratic Party.

 

“Well, although we are cousins, and I was a friend of his father’s, I’ve always thought he was absolutely pointless as a politician. He’s just another conservative southerner.”

 

In fact, Al Gore’s voting record as a senator was surprisingly conservative until he rolled his eye toward the White House. Throughout most of his career, he was pro-life and had an 84% anti-abortion rating from the National Right to Life Committee. From 1979 – 81, he voted five times on the side of a Republican sponsored rider that granted a tax exemption for schools like Bob Jones University that discriminate on the basis of race. He was openly anti-gay, calling homosexuality “abnormal” and “wrong,” and telling the Tennessean in 1984 that he did “not believe it is simply an acceptable alternative that society should affirm.” Gore was such a strong supporter of the gun lobby – ultimately voting against the critical 1985 legislation for a mandatory 14-day waiting period for handgun purchases – that National Rifle Association leader Wayne LaPierre once said, “We could have made Al Gore NRA Man of the Year – every single vote.” Finally, when it came time to vote on conservative Supreme Court nominees, Gore publicly praised but voted against the scandal-ridden Clarence Thomas. He voted in Antonin Scalia. If the wider public had been more aware of his legacy, few would have recognized the Al Gore of 1988 who ran for the Democratic presidential nomination.

 

Pulling his hat down so that his eyes are shadowed from the sun, Vidal continues his effortless assault on Al Gore: “Another border-state, southern lover of the Pentagon…there was never anything the Pentagon asked for that Cousin Albert wasn’t down there giving it to them; he voted for the first war in the Gulf.”

 

Indeed, Al Gore was one of only ten Democrats to break with the party and vote for President Bush Sr.’s Gulf War in 1991. But while Vidal sees this as a facet of Gore’s eager-to-please statism, others have attributed his dissenting vote to self-interest. Former Republican Senator Alan Simpson accused Gore of peddling his vote on the Iraq War in exchange for high-visibility, headline-grabbing speech time on the floor. According to Simpson, the night before the vote Gore stopped by the GOP cloakroom and asked, “How much time will you give me if I support the President?” Taking him at his word, Simpson and Senator Bob Dole offered Gore twenty minutes, thirteen more than his own party would grant. In Simpson’s account, over the course of the night Gore jockeyed to have the floor during prime time to ensure that he would get coverage in the next day’s news cycle. The negotiations went right up to the last minute, leaving Simpson to conclude that Gore “arrived on the Senate floor with… two speeches in hand. [He] was still waiting to see which side – Republicans or Democrats – would offer him the most and the best speaking time.”

 

For Vidal, stories like this just prove the moral bankruptcy of American politicians who serve no master other than their own ambition. And their corporate backers. In Gore’s case, this meant Russian-born oil tycoon Armand Hammer, owner of Occidental Petroleum. Though it was Gore’s father, Senator Al Gore Sr. who was the primary beneficiary of Hammer’s support – in exchange for political and diplomatic favors to further his international business interests – Gore Jr. slipped quietly into his father’s shoes.

 

Occidental is one of the worst corporate polluters in the world. In its most scandalous case, an Occidental subsidiary dumped thousands of tons of toxic chemical waste near the residential area of Love Canal, New York, causing birth defects, miscarriages, and incidences of cancer in the nearby community. But Gore remained a friend of the company. And the company, a good friend to Al Gore.

 

Despite being a predominantly Republican supporter, Occidental funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions to the Clinton/Gore Democrats over the course of their two-term administration. In return, Gore maneuvered to facilitate Occidental’s acquisition of oil drilling rights in the Elk Hills National Petroleum Reserve outside Bakersfield, California. Long held as a federal oil resource, Elk Hills represented the largest turnover of public lands to a private corporation in American history. It tripled Occidental’s U.S. petroleum reserves, increasing the company’s stock value by ten percent. Gore later admitted to controlling between $250,000 – $500,000 worth of shares through a family held trust.

 

Gore’s vaunted record as an environmental populist clashed harshly with the 1996 Elk Hills-Occidental deal. Democratic fund-raiser (and former Gore campaign manager) Tony Cohelo sat on the board of the private company hired to provide an environmental impact report for the Energy Department. After the deal was approved, Peter Eisner of the DC-based Center for Public Integrity remarked, “I can’t say that I’ve ever seen an environmental assessment prepared so quickly.” Perhaps even more damning, Elk Hills is part of the Kitanemuk people’s traditional lands. Despite protests from the tribe, it took less than five years for Occidental’s massive operations to wipe out any trace of the 100 native archaeological sites, including ancient burial grounds, that were left in Elk Hills.

 

Throughout Al Gore’s campaign for the 2000 Democratic presidential candidacy, environmentalists protested his relationship to Occidental. This time the issue was Gore’s defense of the company’s plan to drill near the sacred grounds of the Colombian U’wa tribes people. During Clinton’s second term, Occidental spent millions lobbying for American military aide to Colombia in order to bolster the country’s ability to defend its pipelines from rebel armies. The close links between the company and national security forces surfaced when U’wa leaders sued Occidental, claiming the Colombian army used the company’s planes in an operation that ultimately resulted in the murder of 18 innocent peasants. As a measure of last resort, the 5,000 remaining U’wa threatened collective suicide if Occidental refused to alter their drilling plans. And, in February 2000, when U’wa representative Robert Perez traveled to Washington in order to make his people’s case against the company, Gore refused to meet him. In 2002, after a protracted public battle over the U’wa drill site, Occidental pulled out, saying that U’wa protests had “no effect at all” on Occidental’s withdrawal decision. Apparently, neither did Al Gore.

 

But, for Vidal, the act that most proves Gore’s contempt for representative politics was his total acquiescence in the face of the contested 2000 presidential election result in Florida. The image of Gore presiding over the certification of Bush’s victory was a moving, if tragic, scene in Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11. There he stood, banging his gavel as each successive member of the Congressional Black Caucus rose to challenge the assignment of Florida’s 25 electoral votes to Bush. “There was a hell of a lot of people ready to march,” Vidal says defiantly. But Al Gore wasn’t one of them.

 

“He is of above average intelligence, on issues that people didn’t really care about, like the environment. But if there’s a hot issue, he runs the mile,” Vidal concludes firmly and then, looking up at the clouds that have moved over the sun, rises.

 

GNN co-founder Stephen Marshall is the director of BattleGround: 21 Days on the Empire’s Edge, and This Revolution, a political thriller starring Rosario Dawson, and the co-author of True Lies (Penguin/Plume). He is currently shooting a new documentary entitled Holy Wars and finishing a new book entitled Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing, due out in January 2007.

[iamshack]

I guess this was what I was thinking of...

 

http://www.debatethis.org/gore/enviro/mining.html

 

"The lakes and rivers sustain us; they flow through the veins of the earth and into our own. But we must take care to let them flow back out as pure as they came, not poison and waste them without thought for the future."

-- Al Gore, "Earth in the Balance"

 

CARTHAGE, Tenn. -- On his most recent tax return, as he has the past 25 years, Vice President Al Gore lists a $20,000 mining royalty for the extraction of zinc from beneath his farm here in the bucolic hills of the Cumberland River Valley. In total, Mr. Gore has earned $500,000 from zinc royalties. His late father, the senator, introduced him not only to the double-bladed ax but also to Armand Hammer, chairman of Occidental Petroleum Corp., which sold the zinc-rich land to the Gore family in 1973.

 

It also seems that zinc from Mr. Gore's property ends up in the cool waters of the Caney Fork River, an oft-celebrated site in Gore lore. A major shaft and tailings pond of the Pasminco Zinc Mine sit practically in the backyard of the vice president's Tennessee homestead. Zinc and other metals from the Gore land move from underground tunnels through elaborate extraction processes. Waste material ends up in the tailings pond, from which water flows into adjacent Caney Fork, languidly rolling on to the great Cumberland.

 

Mining is intrinsically a messy business, and Pasminco Zinc generally has a good environmental record. But not one that would pass muster with "Earth in the Balance," Mr. Gore's best-selling environmental book. As recently as May 16, the Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation issued a "Notice of Violation." It informed Pasminco that it had infringed the Tennessee Water Quality Control act due to high levels of zinc in the river.

 

Those zinc levels exceeded standards established by the state and the federal Environmental Protection Agency. A "sample analysis found that total zinc was 1.480 mg/L [milligrams per liter], which is greater than the monthly average of .65 mg/L and the daily maximum of 1.30 mg/L." Pasminco "may be subject to enforcement action pursuant to The Tennessee Water Quality Control Act of 1977 for the aforementioned violation," the notice stated.

 

This was not the first time Mr. Gore's mining benefactor had run afoul of environmental regulations. In 1996, the mine twice failed biomonitoring tests designed to protect water quality in the Caney Fork for fish and wildlife. Mine discharge "failed two acute tests for toxicity to Ceriodaphnia dubia," a species of water flea, according to a mine permit analysis by Tennessee environmental authorities. "The discharge of industrial wastewater from Outfall #001 [the Caney Fork effluent] contains toxic metals (copper and zinc)," the analysis stated. "The combined effect of these pollutants may be detrimental to fish and aquatic life."

 

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Ethanol is fine as a bridge technology on the way to other things. But its certainly not any sort of long term solution, and its got its limits. But the biggest reason ethanol is a "boondoggle" is the insistence on using corn. Right now of course, that's what's available. But other countries have made much better use of much more energetic biomass, and if you are going to have ethanol be part of the picture, you need to use those other crops. Using corn, its ineffective and causes all sorts of economic problems.

 

 

No. Ethanol is a really bad idea. It takes more energy to produce it than we get for burning it and it is driving the price of food through the roof across the board. About the only people making out on this are the big farmers who have tons of it planted.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

As if on queue, the House today passed a bill to lower current tax incentives (or raise taxes, depending on your perspective) to oil companies, resulting in $18B in revenue that would be turned around as tax credits for alternative energy and technologies. The Senate plans to use some sort of fast-track procedure related to budget items to avoid the GOP filibuster thread, and get the bill passed. Bush is promising to veto it... naturally.

 

So, when oil was $55/bbl, Bush says that the oil companies don't need tax breaks anymore. Now at $100/bbl, Congress takes some of them away (roughly $1.8B per oil company), and Bush says its unfair and promises a veto. I guess this is the legend he wants to etch in history for his Presidency - abject stupidity.

 

So frustrating. Please, for the love of God, bring on Obama, or McCain, or hell even Clinton - anyone but this buffoon.

 

 

I can't defend Bush anymore so I won't even try. Actually, that 18B is spread over 10 years so the annual hit to oil companies yearly would be far less than even that. Fact is that we shouldn't be giving the oil companies ANY subsidies at all. I can see doing something like that when oil is dirt cheap like it was during the 90's but now that we're north of 100 a barrel this is just asinine.

 

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national...position=recent

 

The money collected over 10 years would provide tax breaks for wind, solar and other alternative energy sources and for energy conservation. The legislation, approved 236-182, would cost the five largest oil companies an average of $1.8 billion a year over that period, according an analysis by the House Ways and Means Committee. Those companies earned $123 billion last year.

[knightni]

No. Ethanol is a really bad idea. It takes more energy to produce it than we get for burning it and it is driving the price of food through the roof across the board. About the only people making out on this are the big farmers who have tons of it planted.

 

http://www.accidentalhedonist.com/index.ph..._literal_cost_o

 

Sugar tariffs could be removed, allowing sugar to be used for ethanol and for sweeteners instead of high fructose corn syrup. They more than double the retail price of sugar. And that's not cane sugar as much as it is sugar beet sugar here in the US.

 

Only 12% of all corn produced in the US is being used for ethanol and hfcs. But actually, more than half of the remaining 88% is only used for animal feed because it is cheaper than hay or any other grain.

[knightni]

Also, you can't tell me with today's technology and advanced fuel injection systems that almost every vehicle on the road could be 50 or 60 mpg if car companies wanted to make cars like that.

[StrangeSox]

No. Ethanol is a really bad idea. It takes more energy to produce it than we get for burning it and it is driving the price of food through the roof across the board. About the only people making out on this are the big farmers who have tons of it planted.

 

That's not true. The return is ~1.3 units of energy out for 1 unit in. The claim that it takes more is based on one bad professor who has worked for the oil companies for years. BTW, oil is ~.8 units of energy out for 1 unit in.

 

That said, ethanol from corn is still a terrible idea for many other reasons.

[StrangeSox]

Also, you can't tell me with today's technology and advanced fuel injection systems that almost every vehicle on the road could be 50 or 60 mpg if car companies wanted to make cars like that.

 

Yes, I can. Unless you want to be driving around in tiny cars (sub-compacts or smaller), the laws of physics limit the maximum efficiency of a gasoline engine. And you'll have an engine with

[kapkomet]

Yes, I can. Unless you want to be driving around in tiny cars (sub-compacts or smaller), the laws of physics limit the maximum efficiency of a gasoline engine. And you'll have an engine with

They have the technology. They just do not want to advance it.

 

[southsider2k5]

Overnight high of $103.05

[southsider2k5]

Dumb question: wouldn't cutting rates be the worst thing to do right now for inflation? If we're facing a stagnating economy anyway, and lower rates = weak dollar and higher oil prices... why wouldn't hiking rates help? Shouldn't that boost the dollar which I wager would also reduce oil prices because the dollar would be seen as a more attractive investment?

 

To be fair, I understand what they are trying to do. They are trying to make up for lost GDP in the industries connected to the mortgage problems, and make up for it in the pretty unconnected world of exporting. I know I had heard that the losses from the mortgage industry had been about 1.1 percentage points of GDP, while the gains from the lower dollar in export increases and import decreases had been about 1.0 percentage points. They are trying to keep the country out of recession, by supporting the one industry that isn't going to be affected by all of this. I wouldn't be surprised to see the dollar start to float back up as the loans start to get written off, and banking comes back.

 

Personally I think it is shortsighted and not the smartest course of action, but I understand the strategy.

[StrangeSox]

They have the technology. They just do not want to advance it.

 

That's about as true as the "100 MPG carburetor." The automakers are spending millions upon millions of dollars to research better fuel economy. An entire wing of the Mechanical Engineering Building at the University of Illinois was paid for by Ford. They're making strides with direct injection, smaller forced induction engines, small diesels, etc.

 

A decent-sized car that got 50-60 MPG with 200HP would be the best selling car in the country. Unfortunately, thermodynamics says that it really isn't possible. The chemistry of the fuel limits you to a maximum engine efficiency, and then you have to throw in all the mechanical losses in trying to move around a 3500lb. car. 50-60 MPG just isn't going to happen with gasoline engines. Diesel-electric hybrids, maybe. But not gasoline.