Energy thread

[NorthSideSox72]

Since this topic comes up regularly, here is a thread for it. And I'll open with this volley...

 

$107.44

 

[FlaSoxxJim]

This. Is the Car. I Want.

 

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativef...59/article.html

 

Battery-electric sedan due out at the end of the year, 80 mph max. highway speed, 120-mile range, sticker price of $30K.

 

I'm drooling.

[sox4lifeinPA]

This. Is the Car. I Want.

 

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativef...59/article.html

 

Battery-electric sedan due out at the end of the year, 80 mph max. highway speed, 120-mile range, sticker price of $30K.

 

I'm drooling.

 

drooling over a Hynudai?

[FlaSoxxJim]

 

drooling over a Hynudai?

 

One that gets 120 miles on less than $2.00? You bet I am.

[southsideirish71]

My only question on battery powered cars is how they will work in the winter here. Leaving a car out all day in sub zero temperatures might limit that milage a bit here. Down in the south it should work fine all year long.

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

How long does it take to recharge? Also, how would a car like that work for people in apartments/ condos? Run an extension cord out the window?

[FlaSoxxJim]

My only question on battery powered cars is how they will work in the winter here. Leaving a car out all day in sub zero temperatures might limit that milage a bit here. Down in the south it should work fine all year long.

 

I wonder about the winters, and the battery lifespan as well. I guess we will see how it performs when these things get released.

 

 

How long does it take to recharge? Also, how would a car like that work for people in apartments/ condos? Run an extension cord out the window?

 

I think i read 8-12 hours for recharging. And, yeah, people will have to be creative about getting curbside power. I have a decorative lamppost right next to my driveway that has an outlet that I tap into to light Christmas decorations, so that would become my charging station.

 

Now. . . anybody got $30K they want to lend me?

 

[southsider2k5]

I wonder about the winters, and the battery lifespan as well. I guess we will see how it performs when these things get released.

I think i read 8-12 hours for recharging. And, yeah, people will have to be creative about getting curbside power. I have a decorative lamppost right next to my driveway that has an outlet that I tap into to light Christmas decorations, so that would become my charging station.

 

Now. . . anybody got $30K they want to lend me?

 

This has subprime lending written all over it!

[Balance]

This. Is the Car. I Want.

 

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativef...59/article.html

 

Battery-electric sedan due out at the end of the year, 80 mph max. highway speed, 120-mile range, sticker price of $30K.

 

I'm drooling.

 

I'm a big proponent of electric cars. They're the best way to reduce our dependence on foreign oil in the short (and long) term using technology we already have. I wasn't even aware of the sedan you want; thanks for posting it.

 

I'm still drooling over the Tesla Roadster which, as far as I know, has just been released in full production. It's not very practical for me (2-seater, $100k), but I'm really interested to see their follow-on car, which is supposed to be a sedan closer to $50k or $60k. Each should have over a 200-mile range per charge. And for the Teslas, they have a charger that takes less time for a full charge.

 

I'm pretty excited about what this technology will bring.

[sox4lifeinPA]

I'm a big proponent of electric cars. They're the best way to reduce our dependence on foreign oil in the short (and long) term using technology we already have. I wasn't even aware of the sedan you want; thanks for posting it.

 

I'm still drooling over the Tesla Roadster which, as far as I know, has just been released in full production. It's not very practical for me (2-seater, $100k), but I'm really interested to see their follow-on car, which is supposed to be a sedan closer to $50k or $60k. Each should have over a 200-mile range per charge. And for the Teslas, they have a charger that takes less time for a full charge.

 

I'm pretty excited about what this technology will bring.

 

 

I wonder why the Virgin Mobile guy doesn't look into this business proposition? He's building a spaceship, why not electric cars?

 

[Rex Kickass]

My only question on battery powered cars is how they will work in the winter here. Leaving a car out all day in sub zero temperatures might limit that milage a bit here. Down in the south it should work fine all year long.

 

Why would that hurt battery life? If I'm out of AA batteries and a set dies, sometime in the freezer gets a little more juice out of em.

[StrangeSox]

Why would that hurt battery life? If I'm out of AA batteries and a set dies, sometime in the freezer gets a little more juice out of em.

 

Batteries lose capacity in colder temperatures. I don't know the chemistry behind it.

 

Moderate the temperature

 

Batteries lose approximately 25% of their capacity at a temperature of 30°F (compared to a baseline of 77°F). At higher temperatures, they deteriorate faster. Thus, it is desirable to protect them from temperature extremes. If no thermally-stable structure is available, consider an earth-sheltered enclosure. Where low temperature cannot be avoided, get a larger battery bank to make up for the loss of capacity in the winter. Avoid direct radiant heat sources that will cause some batteries to get warmer than others.

 

http://www.conergy.us/desktopdefault.aspx/.../451_read-3926/

[Balta1701]

I want my hour of sleep back.

Up until two years ago, only 15 of Indiana's 92 counties set their clocks an hour ahead in the spring and an hour back in the fall. The rest stayed on standard time all year, in part because farmers resisted the prospect of having to work an extra hour in the morning dark. But many residents came to hate falling in and out of sync with businesses and residents in neighboring states and prevailed upon the Indiana Legislature to put the entire state on daylight-saving time beginning in the spring of 2006.

 

Indiana's change of heart gave University of California-Santa Barbara economics professor Matthew Kotchen and Ph.D. student Laura Grant a unique way to see how the time shift affects energy use. Using more than seven million monthly meter readings from Duke Energy Corp., covering nearly all the households in southern Indiana for three years, they were able to compare energy consumption before and after counties began observing daylight-saving time. Readings from counties that had already adopted daylight-saving time provided a control group that helped them to adjust for changes in weather from one year to the next.

 

Their finding: Having the entire state switch to daylight-saving time each year, rather than stay on standard time, costs Indiana households an additional $8.6 million in electricity bills. They conclude that the reduced cost of lighting in afternoons during daylight-saving time is more than offset by the higher air-conditioning costs on hot afternoons and increased heating costs on cool mornings.

 

"I've never had a paper with such a clear and unambiguous finding as this," says Mr. Kotchen, who presented the paper at a National Bureau of Economic Research conference this month.

 

A 2007 study by economists Hendrik Wolff and Ryan Kellogg of the temporary extension of daylight-saving in two Australian territories for the 2000 Summer Olympics also suggested the clock change increases energy use.

 

 

Research on the impact of extending daylight-saving time across Indiana found:

• Residential electricity usage increased between 1% and 4%, amounting to $8.6 million a year.

• Social costs from increased emissions were estimated at between $1.6 million and $5.3 million per year.

• Possible social benefits -- enhanced public health and safety and economic growth -- were not studied

[NorthSideSox72]

$109.20

 

[Rex Kickass]

So there doesn't seem to be any legitimate reason why oil is this high. Inventories are at a relatively historical high and there's no real distribution shortage. This is pure speculation.

 

Was it a mistake to allow the free trade of oil as a commodity given its absolute need in society?

[NorthSideSox72]

So there doesn't seem to be any legitimate reason why oil is this high. Inventories are at a relatively historical high and there's no real distribution shortage. This is pure speculation.

 

Was it a mistake to allow the free trade of oil as a commodity given its absolute need in society?

No, I think it works quite well to be traded as a commodity. Speculation does indeed sometimes throw it too high or low for the fundamentals at play, but, keep some things in mind. For one thing, fundamentals never tell the whole story. Those speculative items, like news of OPEC's intentions, are important. Also, there are times where that same speculation underprices commodities.

 

But here is the real issue - the commodity in this case (oil) doesn't market like other commodities. Its not available via a large number of entities. The prices therefore cannot flow naturally. The competitive pressure that should bring the price down doesn't exist, because of the cartel of oil nations, as well as the cartel of oil companies. Its a commodity, traded as such, but marketed like a oligopolized product. That's why you are getting this out of control rise in prices, most primarily.

 

[StrangeSox]

So there doesn't seem to be any legitimate reason why oil is this high. Inventories are at a relatively historical high and there's no real distribution shortage. This is pure speculation.

 

Was it a mistake to allow the free trade of oil as a commodity given its absolute need in society?

There's a very good reason. Oil is traded in dollars generally, and the dollar is losing value.

[southsider2k5]

The dollar slide and the flight from stocks to commodities are the two biggest legitimate fundimentals behind the rise of crude. I would also argue the high prices are the only way to change behavior to move away from fossil fuels.

[Rex Kickass]

So would changing the currency of trade of oil to the Euro stop the rapid increase in oil cost?

[NorthSideSox72]

The dollar slide and the flight from stocks to commodities are the two biggest legitimate fundimentals behind the rise of crude. I would also argue the high prices are the only way to change behavior to move away from fossil fuels.

That's right, I forgot about the dollar aspect as well. Very true.

 

And I agree on the change of behavior - I've said it before as well. Its going to be the only way this country will change.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

So would changing the currency of trade of oil to the Euro stop the rapid increase in oil cost?

I'd suggest the dollar is only one factor in the meteoric rise in prices. All the other things SS2K5 and I brought up - weak equities markets, speculation and fear, non-commodity-like product flow, and the fact that its not a renewable resource - all play in.

 

[Rex Kickass]

I'd suggest the dollar is only one factor in the meteoric rise in prices. All the other things SS2K5 and I brought up - weak equities markets, speculation and fear, non-commodity-like product flow, and the fact that its not a renewable resource - all play in.

 

I guess what I'm curious about is why we would allow something that is required for our society to function be subject to enormous price shocks that are not related to supply? Isn't this as foolish as what California let Enron do to it five or six years ago in regards to electricity?

 

If it doesn't have a product flow like a commodity, why would you trade it like one?

[NorthSideSox72]

I guess what I'm curious about is why we would allow something that is required for our society to function be subject to enormous price shocks that are not related to supply? Isn't this as foolish as what California let Enron do to it five or six years ago in regards to electricity?

 

If it doesn't have a product flow like a commodity, why would you trade it like one?

Well, the price shocks are somewhat related to supply. Just other things as well.

 

There are pluses and minuses to trading it this way. And removing it from trading may actually hurt prices in many ways, not to mention reduce market transparency, and further encourage B.S. from the oil companies.

 

[Texsox]

Random thoughts.

 

Something I learned from the concrete industry that carries over to oil. We're using both faster than the earth can resupply. Therefor, the folks that own cement and oil, own as much as they ever will. It is just a matter of how fast they want to sell it. Why bust your ass in production just to lower prices? Work 8-5 M-F and not worry about it.

 

Electric cars move the point of pollution from the cars to the electric plant. I know no one was touting the environmental impact but wanted to toss it out there.

 

Anyone know if the taxes on fuel are percentages or exact cost per gallon? Perhaps consumers should be talking to our elected representatives to lower them taxes.

[NorthSideSox72]

Electric cars move the point of pollution from the cars to the electric plant. I know no one was touting the environmental impact but wanted to toss it out there.

Those plants are many times over more efficient at producing energy than gas-engine cars though, so its still a significant net drop in energy. Plus, you are assuming these will all be pure plug-in powered electrics. They will also, I'd guess, employ regenerative braking and other internal electrical regeneration methods, which are basically "free".