Obama's Pastor

[lostfan]

Rumsfeld was a horrible secretary of defense. I like Gates sooo much better.

[HuskyCaucasian]

No surprise: Hannity has pretty much declared all out war and character assassination on Obama.

[thedoctor]

No surprise: Hannity has pretty much declared all out war and character assassination on Obama.

 

[bmags]

and petreaus over tommy franks. Some have improved some have declined.

[whitesoxfan101]

I still think this pastor is going to get him killed in Pennsylvania with all the white, blue collar votes, however his speech today was very good. To see a politician not throw somebody who caused him trouble under the bus, openly talk about race, and actually seem genuine and honest was so shocking that I am not even sure how to react to it. I still don't agree with much of any of what he says politically, but he did a great job today on what is an ignored issue.

 

The whack job far righties (as seen in this thread) are going to react negatively, but one thing that is for sure is people on the far right politically have no idea of what they speak when it comes to race (that comment will get me flamed, but sorry, it's the truth) so that's not all that relevant. This whole thing might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for him in the sense that Obama was forced to actually say what he thinks on a major issue (race) instead of saying blah blah blah I have hope, and I was pleasantly surprised by what I heard today.

 

On a side note though, the fact that the press stood and applauded after the speech bothers me. I know these people have agendas and all, but that's ridiculous. Whatever happened to no cheering in the press box?

Edited March 19, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[kapkomet]

I still think this pastor is going to get him killed in Pennsylvania with all the white, blue collar votes, however his speech today was very good. To see a politician not throw somebody who caused him trouble under the bus, openly talk about race, and actually seem genuine and honest was so shocking that I am not even sure how to react to it. I still don't agree with much of any of what he says politically, but he did a great job today on what is an ignored issue.

 

The whack job far righties (as seen in this thread) are going to react negatively, but one thing that is for sure is people on the far right politically have no idea of what they speak when it comes to race (that comment will get me flamed, but sorry, it's the truth) so that's not all that relevant. This whole thing might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for him in the sense that Obama was forced to actually say what he thinks on a major issue (race) instead of saying blah blah blah I have hope, and I was pleasantly surprised by what I heard today.

 

On a side note though, the fact that the press stood and applauded after the speech bothers me. I know these people have agendas and all, but that's ridiculous. Whatever happened to no cheering in the press box?

Oh really? So, I consider myself more of a "righty" then a "lefty" and now, I have no idea of what I speak in regards to race? Nice broad brush... and it's bulls***.

 

[EvilMonkey]

You know, i was just gonna leave you all here to drool over your savior, but I just watched the beginning of his speech, and I am actually a little shocked, and I am not even 2 minutues in.

"Two hundred and twenty one years ago, in a hall that still stands across the street, a group of men gathered and, with these simple words, launched America’s improbable experiment in democracy. Farmers and scholars; statesmen and patriots who had traveled across an ocean to escape tyranny and persecution finally made real their declaration of independence at a Philadelphia convention that lasted through the spring of 1787.

The document they produced was eventually signed but ultimately unfinished. It was stained by this nation’s original sin of slavery..."

Our ORIGINAL SIN? In other words, all white Americans are born sinful. If we suffer from original sin, then we are guilty no matter how virtuously we behave. Furthermore, original sin can only be cleansed by divine grace. And who is the pastor who is offered to us as a holy intermediary to dispense this divine forgiveness? The hate-spewing Wright and others like him? This line right here puts him in line with his wife's statement about not being proud of this country, etc. I have no original sin of slavery. My ancestors either came here from Germany (Grandfather), England (both grandparents on one side) or were here before the colonists in the various tribes across this country (grandmother). America didn't invent slavery, in fact we ended it in alot of places. I seriously resented hearing those lines. I did like his realization that conflicts in the Middle East are rooted primarily in the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam. Is that window dressing, or will he remember that if he is elected? The rest sounded like a typical Dem speech, business bad, we must work together, Reagan preyed on prejiduces, etc. Vote for me, and we can heal the divide, end the distractions, etc. Special interests bad, health care for all good, globalization really bad (may agree with him on that one), then slips into the war should have never been waged, forgetting his earlier comment about 'hateful ideologies of radical islam'. He speaks very well, almost like a preacher (and I don't mean that as a bad thing), and I can see where people could be swept up if they agree with his message.

 

And just an aside, he said that some commentators deemed him 'Too black'. Really? Are they the deaf and blind ones? If someone did say that, let me know so I can laugh at them.

[lostfan]

Dude, seriously you are REALLY making something out of nothing with the "original sin" comment. Focus less on the specific words used in an almost 40-minute speech and focus more on what he was actually saying - the root of all of our social problems today come from slavery. This should pretty much be common knowledge.

 

BTW invading Iraq had nothing to do with stemming the tide of radical Islam ala Afghanistan but that is a whole other argument.

[kapkomet]

Dude, seriously you are REALLY making something out of nothing with the "original sin" comment. Focus less on the specific words used in an almost 40-minute speech and focus more on what he was actually saying - the root of all of our social problems today come from slavery. This should pretty much be common knowledge.

 

BTW invading Iraq had nothing to do with stemming the tide of radical Islam ala Afghanistan but that is a whole other argument.

Um... no. What does that have to do with, say, immigration? We aren't "enslaving" Mexicans, are we? Health care, now we're shunning all but the "rich white folks", right? Anyway, I digress.

 

The "original sin" comment, Alpha, wasn't meant in a "religious context"... so I don't agree with that premise. But, I do think that it's pretty good rhetoric to create a racial divide, which was his point.

[lostfan]

Um... no. What does that have to do with, say, immigration? We aren't "enslaving" Mexicans, are we?

Obama's not Mexican, and didn't have a Mexican pastor saying inflammatory things. And furthermore, slavery was around for centuries before illegal immigration was a problem. Hence "original." The effects still linger to this day, for a lot of different reasons.

[EvilMonkey]

Dude, seriously you are REALLY making something out of nothing with the "original sin" comment. Focus less on the specific words used in an almost 40-minute speech and focus more on what he was actually saying - the root of all of our social problems today come from slavery. This should pretty much be common knowledge.

 

BTW invading Iraq had nothing to do with stemming the tide of radical Islam ala Afghanistan but that is a whole other argument.

You know, in politics, specific words mean specific things. And I am sure that with this speech, every word and phrase was gone over many times and picked very carefully. He damned white America from the beginning, religious meaning or not. I resent that.

[bmags]

i think the point was, since the beginning of this countries formation, racism (and i consider slavery such) has been a devisive subject that continually gets put off.

[lostfan]

You know, in politics, specific words mean specific things. And I am sure that with this speech, every word and phrase was gone over many times and picked very carefully. He damned white America from the beginning, religious meaning or not. I resent that.

You know what... comments like this are exactly why he didn't want to bring up race until his hand was forced. You just can't win. Somebody is going to find something wrong no matter what you say. So it's just treated as the elephant in the room.

 

However, if you really want to be argumentative and prove a point you can try explaining to me, without cherry-picking, how white America (as a sole entity, throughout history) is somehow not the original source of racism. And by extension, how highlighting a fact like that is damning. That is kind of the whole point and if you're going to talk about race, it's unavoidable. You personally not being racist or bristling at the thought of being called a racist does not change this.

Edited March 19, 2008 by lostfan

[lostfan]

i think the point was, since the beginning of this countries formation, racism (and i consider slavery such) has been a devisive subject that continually gets put off.

ding ding ding.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Our ORIGINAL SIN? In other words, all white Americans are born sinful. If we suffer from original sin, then we are guilty no matter how virtuously we behave. Furthermore, original sin can only be cleansed by divine grace.

 

Main Entry: original

Part of Speech: adjective

Definition: earliest

 

Only someone looking to be insulted would make "nation's original sin" stretch to "all white Americans are born guilty for slavery and must request forgiveness through black preachers".

[lostfan]

Main Entry: original

Part of Speech: adjective

Definition: earliest

 

Only someone looking to be insulted would make "nation's original sin" stretch to "all white Americans are born guilty for slavery and must request forgiveness through black preachers".

Thank you.

[EvilMonkey]

You know what... comments like this are exactly why he didn't want to bring up race until his hand was forced. You just can't win. Somebody is going to find something wrong no matter what you say. So it's just treated as the elephant in the room.

 

However, if you really want to be argumentative and prove a point you can try explaining to me, without cherry-picking, how white America (as a sole entity, throughout history) is somehow not the original source of racism. And by extension, how highlighting a fact like that is damning. That is kind of the whole point and if you're going to talk about race, it's unavoidable. You personally not being racist or bristling at the thought of being called a racist does not change this.

Do you know any history? Slavery existed long before there ever was a 'White America'. It existed in Africa (NOT white), by Africans (also NOT white) and still exists in Africa (because of NON whites).

[bmags]

Do you know any history? Slavery existed long before there ever was a 'White America'. It existed in Africa (NOT white), by Africans (also NOT white) and still exists in Africa (because of NON whites).

 

Africa isn't in America.

[kapkomet]

Obama's not Mexican, and didn't have a Mexican pastor saying inflammatory things. And furthermore, slavery was around for centuries before illegal immigration was a problem. Hence "original." The effects still linger to this day, for a lot of different reasons.

Read my response to what you highlighted, not what race Obama is. You said "the root of our social problems come from slavery"... that's not true, in my opinion. Now what you're trying to turn this into is [racism is] "the root of our social problems" and that's not true either.

 

And "white people" started racism? That's ... um... a little conceited, to put it gently. (note, I can't remember if you said that originally, lostfan... I'm tired... but whoever said it, I stand by my point. G'night y'all... tommorrow's another debateful day... )

Edited March 19, 2008 by kapkomet

[DrunkBomber]

Obama's not Mexican, and didn't have a Mexican pastor saying inflammatory things. And furthermore, slavery was around for centuries before illegal immigration was a problem. Hence "original." The effects still linger to this day, for a lot of different reasons.

Slavery was also started before the US existed. Slavery has nothing to do with anyone alive and and is used as a cop out. Obama is pimping a great idea hypothetically but its not gonna change in the near future. If he wants to get rid of the racial divide its going to take more than a speech. Things like affirmative action and the Rooney rule should be immediately terminated because that isnt equality.

 

Maybe Obama can sit down with the individual who didnt get into Princeton because of the spot that was reserved for affirmative action and then he can explain ending the racial divide and equality to that person. To know what route his wife had to go to get into school BECAUSE of the color of her skin instead of qualification and then to see her senior thesis and to hear her say this is the first time shes been proud of the US shows a great deal of lack of appreciation for the system that got her into college.

 

Even the thought of a 1% possibility that he may deep down harness similar thoughts to the people close to him in terms of race terrifies me that he might get into office.

[EvilMonkey]

Africa isn't in America.

You passed Geography. Good.

[lostfan]

Do you know any history? Slavery existed long before there ever was a 'White America'. It existed in Africa (NOT white), by Africans (also NOT white) and still exists in Africa (because of NON whites).

Are we not talking about America?

[kapkomet]

Slavery was also started before the US existed. Slavery has nothing to do with anyone alive and and is used as a cop out. Obama is pimping a great idea hypothetically but its not gonna change in the near future. If he wants to get rid of the racial divide its going to take more than a speech. Things like affirmative action and the Rooney rule should be immediately terminated because that isnt equality.

 

Maybe Obama can sit down with the individual who didnt get into Princeton because of the spot that was reserved for affirmative action and then he can explain ending the racial divide and equality to that person. To know what route his wife had to go to get into school BECAUSE of the color of her skin instead of qualification and then to see her senior thesis and to hear her say this is the first time shes been proud of the US shows a great deal of lack of appreciation for the system that got her into college.

 

Even the thought of a 1% possibility that he may deep down harness similar thoughts to the people close to him in terms of race terrifies me that he might get into office.

Good post.

[EvilMonkey]

Are we not talking about America?

xplaining to me, without cherry-picking, how white America (as a sole entity, throughout history) is somehow not the original source of racism

You were not. But maybe you meant to, and that's ok. Actions and deeds are not important, it is what you intended that is important, and that you feel good about yourself.

[lostfan]

Read my response to what you highlighted, not what race Obama is. You said "the root of our social problems come from slavery"... that's not true, in my opinion. Now what you're trying to turn this into is [racism is] "the root of our social problems" and that's not true either.

 

And "white people" started racism? That's ... um... a little conceited, to put it gently.

Slavery turned to Jim Crow laws which led to 100 years of direct oppression which did not formally end until it was forced to the Civil Rights era which was the beginning of the end of it all, but certainly not the end... all of which has set back the black race as a whole back decades and decades from where it could've or should've progressed to. And yeah, the people that did this were white, and they lived in America.

 

Maybe I should clarify... the root of the divide between white and black in this country comes from slavery.