Obama's Pastor

[lostfan]

Whats the relevance of it? We had nothing to do with slavery so why can it be used as an excuse when dealing with people now. How is the country supposed to move forward when theyre always looking back at a dark part of our past?

I've explained this at great length already and the context of what Obama was talking about when he mentioned it in the speech. Don't be holding your breath waiting for me to do it again.

[kapkomet]

I'm mixed (you guys all probably figured I was black so I never bothered to mention it, I figured my own race was irrelevant though) and to get where I'm at, quite honestly, no white person has ever "held me back." And to be honest I've never had an N-bomb dropped to my face... anonymous morons on the Internet notwithstanding. The number of white racists I've met is actually pretty small, and I've even lived in the South. But at the same time I haven't gotten a thing because of affirmative action, everything I've gotten is on my own.

 

I say all this to say I try to go out of my way not to paint with that "white people" brush because all it does is divide and turn people off, and shut ears. I only speak about race in a historical context and if I talk about today it's on a "macro" type level. So, as far as what you're saying here, I agree with you.

And your point of view is shared with most "minorities"... thank goodness. It's the vocal "minority" (pardon the pun) that causes trouble.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think its really, really interesting the firestorm this speech has set off. Not only in here, but amongst Americans generally. And I've noticed, looking not only at message boards, but also hearing conversation, that there is a recurring theme to how the dialogue goes. Some people are immediately inspired and heartened by the speech. But many are set off to anger by some phrase or phrases in it - and I've seen this from both white and black people and commentators (not that commentators aren't people - you know what I mean). They argue it out, and ultimately, they are able to cite some other portion of the speech to moderate or add perspective to those parts that offended. To me, that just reinforces how all-inclusve the speech really was. It contained within it a full, reasonable perspective - including reference to some of the extremities. But he ALSO specifically talked about this EXACT conversation occurring - that we could choose to stay in our respective corners and duke it out. Or we could choose to see the whole picture.

 

I have to say, even though I think some posts in this thread were a bit over the top (or downright paranoid, or ridiculously sheepish), the overall conversation eventually got back to a 95% common understanding among all the various parties. Very nicely done.

 

So now, the next natural question should be... what policies would you implement to address some of these issues?

 

[lostfan]

It's not a matter of enacting more policies IMO, we already have plenty of laws. It's a matter of acknowledging the past, understanding it, and airing it out instead of avoiding it. Leadership that we haven't seen since MLK died (Jackson, Farrakhan, and Sharpton couldn't cut it).

[lostfan]

And your point of view is shared with most "minorities"... thank goodness. It's the vocal "minority" (pardon the pun) that causes trouble.

And I'm a Southsider to the bone, a product of Chicago Public Schools. Although I don't live in Chicago anymore. So it may have been more difficult for me, but it certainly wasn't impossible. And it's not directly anyone's "fault", either.

 

I see things as class-based rather than race-based, poor people are at a natural disadvantage. If a white kid grows up in Englewood he is going to have the same rough path a black kid has. But it just so happens that blacks and Mexicans have been put into that situation in disproportionately large numbers, the reasons for that come from a long time ago and that's where a lot of animosity comes from. Now the problem is, how do we undo it? It's complex.

Edited March 19, 2008 by lostfan

[NorthSideSox72]

It's not a matter of enacting more policies IMO, we already have plenty of laws. It's a matter of acknowledging the past, understanding it, and airing it out instead of avoiding it. Leadership that we haven't seen since MLK died (Jackson, Farrakhan, and Sharpton couldn't cut it).

I would agree that leadership, and laying open the real issues, are part of what is needed. But since we are talking about a Presidential candidate, I think a policy discussion makes sense.

 

For example, the current system of funding schools via property tax is, in my opinion, class warfare. Its keeping the poor poor, and the rich rich. PUBLIC schools should not be so disparately funded from district to district based on how big the parents' homes are.

 

Another policy example is affirmative action. In my view, its organized bigotry, and does more harm than good. It should be abolished as an acceptable practice.

 

I am sure there are other discussions that can be made as well, about policy. I think things can be changed for the better.

 

[lostfan]

You touched on something I mentioned in the edit to my post, the disparity in public school funding. I think you're absolutely right, there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for schools in higher property tax areas to be better funded than poor areas. Kids are kids, they all deserve an equal shot no matter where they come from. In Maryland it's a really big problem. Schools in Baltimore suck while rich kids in the outlying counties get damn near private-school quality education. What's that about?

 

I like the intention behind affirmative action but I'm against the way it works out, I think some kind of class-based system could be worked out as long as the most qualified people are given the fairest shot in the end. But I still think ethical practices in the workplace, school etc. should be strictly enforced (anti-discrimination rules, etc., most places I've been do this).

Edited March 19, 2008 by lostfan

[southsider2k5]

And I'm a Southsider to the bone, a product of Chicago Public Schools. Although I don't live in Chicago anymore. So it may have been more difficult for me, but it certainly wasn't impossible. And it's not directly anyone's "fault", either.

 

I see things as class-based rather than race-based, poor people are at a natural disadvantage. If a white kid grows up in Englewood he is going to have the same rough path a black kid has. But it just so happens that blacks and Mexicans have been put into that situation in disproportionately large numbers, the reasons for that come from a long time ago and that's where a lot of animosity comes from. Now the problem is, how do we undo it? It's complex.

 

If there was one thing I learned from my run for school board it is that race, sex, religion, and any other ism you can throw out there pale in comparision to being poor as an indicator of where someone will go in life. Kids from bad areas preform badly, regardless of race, more often than any other difference you can draw between students. The property tax system to fund schools is a HUGE failure.

[lostfan]

If there was one thing I learned from my run for school board it is that race, sex, religion, and any other ism you can throw out there pale in comparision to being poor as an indicator of where someone will go in life. Kids from bad areas preform badly, regardless of race, more often than any other difference you can draw between students. The property tax system to fund schools is a HUGE failure.

Agree 100%. If you're black and grow up in a well-off family in a predominantly upper-middle class to rich white neigborhood you're much more likely to "make it" than you would be if you're white from a poor family in a predominantly poor black neighborhood.

 

Now, the problem is, what race(s) do most poor people come from? And many people don't see very far past that.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Mike Huckabee, of all people, backed up and supported Obama / Wright.

FINALLY a conservative with a head on his shoulders. I'd love to see Hannity and Ruch's thoughts on this.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/1...0494/229/479797

HUCKABEE: [Obama] made the point, and I think it's a valid one, that you can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do. You just can't. Whether it's me, whether it's Obama...anybody else. But he did distance himself from the very vitriolic statements.

 

Now, the second story. It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left who are having to be very uncomfortable with what Louis Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell, or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Reverend Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say "Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that."

 

JOE SCARBOROUGH: But, but, you never came close to saying five days after September 11th, that America deserved what it got. Or that the American government invented AIDS...

 

HUCKABEE: Not defending his statements.

 

JOE SCARBOROUGH: Oh, I know you're not. I know you're not. I'm just wondering though, for a lot of people...Would you not guess that there are a lot of Independent voters in Arkansas that vote for Democrats sometimes, and vote for Republicans sometimes, that are sitting here wondering how Barack Obama's spiritual mentor would call the United States the USKKK?

 

HUCKABEE: I mean, those were outrageous statements, and nobody can defend the content of them.

 

JOE SCARBOROUGH: But what's the impact on voters in Arkansas? Swing voters.

 

HUCKABEE: I don't think we know. If this were October, I think it would have a dramatic impact. But it's not October. It's March. And I don't believe that by the time we get to October, this is gonna be the defining issue of the campaign, and the reason that people vote.

 

And one other thing I think we've gotta remember. As easy as it is for those of us who are white, to look back and say "That's a terrible statement!"...I grew up in a very segregated south. And I think that you have to cut some slack -- and I'm gonna be probably the only Conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you -- we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told "you have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus..." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.

 

MIKA: I agree with that. I really do.

 

JOE SCARBOROUGH: It's the Atticus Finch line about walking a mile in somebody else's shoes. I remember when Ronald Reagan got shot in 1981. There were some black students in my school that started applauding and said they hoped that he died. And you just sat there and of course you were angry at first, and then you walked out and started scratching your head going "boy, there is some deep resentment there."

 

Edited March 19, 2008 by Athomeboy_2000

[whitesoxfan101]

Well I take back what I said earlier in this thread, there is apparently at least one hardcore conservative with a clue of what he speaks on this topic, and who isn't afraid to tackle this subject.

Edited March 19, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[lostfan]

Huckabee just earned a couple of cool points in my book.

[mr_genius]

Well, Huckabee has some sermons which are pretty controversial. I would suppose having crazy religious sermons being completely acceptable would benefit him. maybe i'm just cynical.

Edited March 19, 2008 by mr_genius

[Balta1701]

For some solid humor, I think this image fits well within this thread.

[DrunkBomber]

I've explained this at great length already and the context of what Obama was talking about when he mentioned it in the speech. Don't be holding your breath waiting for me to do it again.

I dont need a second interpretation of what Obama said in his speech. He didnt say anything. All he did was acknowledge problems and tried to play both ends of the spectrum. If you want to compare this speech to a historical event I would compare it to Houdini making an elephant disappear in a crowded room before comparing it to anything MLK said. The man is surrounded by racists, including his wife, and that reflects upon him no matter how he tries to spin it. He chose to go down this path and bring this discussion back so he better be able to back it up. He might have said he could see why people would be angry about affirmative action but he didnt say he was going to do anything to be apart of the solution. I dont want to hear anything about race from this guy in terms of knocking down barriers until the double standard is eliminated.

 

With idiots like Jesse Jackson, Al Sarpton and even Pastor Wright being able to spew their hate and promote racism without consequence in this country nothing is going to get accomplished.

[lostfan]

I know you think you're being constructive but you really aren't contributing anything of value, it's just divisive BS. I can't really respond to anything you said without pissing you off.

[kapkomet]

I dont need a second interpretation of what Obama said in his speech. He didnt say anything. All he did was acknowledge problems and tried to play both ends of the spectrum. If you want to compare this speech to a historical event I would compare it to Houdini making an elephant disappear in a crowded room before comparing it to anything MLK said. The man is surrounded by racists, including his wife, and that reflects upon him no matter how he tries to spin it. He chose to go down this path and bring this discussion back so he better be able to back it up. He might have said he could see why people would be angry about affirmative action but he didnt say he was going to do anything to be apart of the solution. I dont want to hear anything about race from this guy in terms of knocking down barriers until the double standard is eliminated.

 

With idiots like Jesse Jackson, Al Sarpton and even Pastor Wright being able to spew their hate and promote racism without consequence in this country nothing is going to get accomplished.

I can safely say that Obama is nothing like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and even Pastor Wright. Now, to what extent he can "do something about it" is debateable. The reason that Jesse and Al are (closet) pissed off at Obama is because he's doing this without their help. Think about it.

 

[DrunkBomber]

I know you think you're being constructive but you really aren't contributing anything of value, it's just divisive BS. I can't really respond to anything you said without pissing you off.

What in your opinion is valuable to the conversation? When ever this issue is discussed it always goes the same route, public schools, poverty etc. Obama did do one thing which was acknowledge we are at a stalemate about this topic and there are underlying issues that are too taboo to discuss so people are scared to. Im not trying to come off as racist or offend anyone myself. Im trying to clear the air. The things Ive talked about are things that have always bothered me and I think if nobody ever discusses the issues they will never be resolved. I dont know where youre coming from and you dont know where Im coming from and I think once people learn to understand others that are different from them is the first step in accomplishing this goal. Im sure there are lots of things that people of every race or religion dont understand or like about other races or religions but if everyone is too scared to ask or talk about it the barrier will always be there.

 

We can all sit here and discuss lack of funding for public schools and whatever else but even though I disagree with what Obama said, I do agree with the idea of trying to end the racial tension that has always existed that people are scared to confront because they dont want to be labeled a racist or bigot.

[kapkomet]

What in your opinion is valuable to the conversation? When ever this issue is discussed it always goes the same route, public schools, poverty etc. Obama did do one thing which was acknowledge we are at a stalemate about this topic and there are underlying issues that are too taboo to discuss so people are scared to. Im not trying to come off as racist or offend anyone myself. Im trying to clear the air. The things Ive talked about are things that have always bothered me and I think if nobody ever discusses the issues they will never be resolved. I dont know where youre coming from and you dont know where Im coming from and I think once people learn to understand others that are different from them is the first step in accomplishing this goal. Im sure there are lots of things that people of every race or religion dont understand or like about other races or religions but if everyone is too scared to ask or talk about it the barrier will always be there.

 

We can all sit here and discuss lack of funding for public schools and whatever else but even though I disagree with what Obama said, I do agree with the idea of trying to end the racial tension that has always existed that people are scared to confront because they dont want to be labeled a racist or bigot.

And again, class has much more to do with the divides that exist then does race. It's because poverty exists in predominately "minority" races... which is where the race comes back to bite us of all socio-economic classes.

 

[lostfan]

What in your opinion is valuable to the conversation? When ever this issue is discussed it always goes the same route, public schools, poverty etc. Obama did do one thing which was acknowledge we are at a stalemate about this topic and there are underlying issues that are too taboo to discuss so people are scared to. Im not trying to come off as racist or offend anyone myself. Im trying to clear the air. The things Ive talked about are things that have always bothered me and I think if nobody ever discusses the issues they will never be resolved. I dont know where youre coming from and you dont know where Im coming from and I think once people learn to understand others that are different from them is the first step in accomplishing this goal. Im sure there are lots of things that people of every race or religion dont understand or like about other races or religions but if everyone is too scared to ask or talk about it the barrier will always be there.

 

We can all sit here and discuss lack of funding for public schools and whatever else but even though I disagree with what Obama said, I do agree with the idea of trying to end the racial tension that has always existed that people are scared to confront because they dont want to be labeled a racist or bigot.

It's not that I think you're a racist or anything dumb like that, it's that it really bothers me when people talk in really general terms or go off and railroad the discussion into a strawman argument, I'll be reading their reply to something I said and it's almost as if I've said something completely different and doesn't match anything I've said in the threads. That's the direction I saw it heading and whenever I see something like that happen on a MB I will say something to the effect of "I'm not doing that, it's a waste of time" etc. Specifically in this case I was under the impression that you thought I was blaming slavery for problems today (I'm not and I thought I was being pretty specific) and that you started hinting at the fact that I support Jackson, Sharpton, et al even though I said the distinct opposite in the thread (I think you probably weren't but that's really what it looked like). When that happens, when what I'm saying doesn't resonate and I get the impression the person isn't listening - disagreeing with me is fine - I feel like I'm wasting keystrokes.

 

I'm really not trying to be an a-hole so if that's how I'm coming across I'm sorry. Where I agree with you, and everyone else, is that we need to air things out. But if we're going to do that we need to be open-minded and accept that we're going to hear things we don't want to hear.

[lostfan]

Social classes and education funding is 100% relevant which is why the conversations always gravitate towards it in these types of conversations.

[DrunkBomber]

I can safely say that Obama is nothing like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and even Pastor Wright. Now, to what extent he can "do something about it" is debateable. The reason that Jesse and Al are (closet) pissed off at Obama is because he's doing this without their help. Think about it.

I wasnt trying to compare Obama to those people. I was just saying that those types of people are one of the biggest hurdles to accomplishing the goals that were the point of the speech.

[lostfan]

I wasnt trying to compare Obama to those people. I was just saying that those types of people are one of the biggest hurdles to accomplishing the goals that were the point of the speech.

Now that I think I get your point of view, I agree.

 

I would make the case that they're misunderstood but I'm convinced that Jackson and Sharpton are in it for Jackson and Sharpton and that's the only reason they do anything. They aren't leaders, they're opportunists.

[kapkomet]

I wasnt trying to compare Obama to those people. I was just saying that those types of people are one of the biggest hurdles to accomplishing the goals that were the point of the speech.

Mkay. That I 100% agree with.

[kapkomet]

Now that I think I get your point of view, I agree.

 

I would make the case that they're misunderstood but I'm convinced that Jackson and Sharpton are in it for Jackson and Sharpton and that's the only reason they do anything. They aren't leaders, they're opportunists.

Woohoo! You go! I can't stand these two, and it's not because of their race.