Obama's Pastor

[BigSqwert]

It was politically positive for Obama to be associates with the Rev early in his career. He was well known in the community and helped Obama with his blackness in the community.

How do you know that to be fact? You seem to be presuming. Could it be possible that he actually helped Obama find God and that's why Obama stayed with him?

[NorthSideSox72]

Are you really gonna try and compare the relationships of listening to someone on the radio and someones spiritual adviser who married him and his wife and baptized their children? There have been other concerns about Obama listed over the course of this whole discussion and for the most part everything brougtt up gets looked over and a lot of the Obama supporters pick and choose what arguments they want to address.

 

To even imply that someone might be racist for criticizing Wright and Obama for his relationship with Wright is laughable. Two days or so ago when someone referred to Obamas comments on the view about if someone were to have the 5 worst things youve said over 20 years played in a loop for 2 weeks and I explained the difference, which was more than "logical," every single person in this thread completely over looks it and moves on to the next point that they figure they have a better shot at discrediting.

 

Even the Obama supporters have at one point or another criticized things that Wright has done or said but since people with different views as you are more harsh on the subject all of a sudden were wrong and racist for it?

 

Now, if anybody considers being outraged by Wrights comments racist then fine, call me a racist because I wont tolerate that level of hate and yes, I have a lot of concerns about a candidate of the presidency having any type of extended relationship with someone like that. You guys can sit there and make excuses for that type of hate or imply that there isnt enough evidence to call Wright a racist but Ill go back and quote another one of my posts that was looked over that my opinion isnt on trial and that every single one of you Obama supporters that thinks you somehow are automatically right because youre in the majority on this specific message board but you are just as close minded as you are trying to say we are except at the other end of the spectrum. That doesnt make you more knowledgeable, that doesnt make you right, that doesnt make you open minded.

 

Ive made it clear in this forum that I am very critical of all three candidates and to be honest I dont like any of them at all but at least you wont see me blindly defending someone just to try and prove a point. All three of these candidates have flaws in their stances and Im sure there isnt one person that agrees with every single position their candidate takes yet there are people that will blindly defend them. Take a look at Athomeboy, critical of people that are critical of Obama but take a look at the articles hes posting about Hillary that are just as slanderous as whats being discussed in terms of Obama but I guess thats ok but why? Because race isnt involved? Because they belong to the same political party? Because there are more Obama supporters here than another candidate?

 

So you guys can continue to discredit our opinions, continue to blindly defend a Pastor who is on the record spewing hate and intolerance and continue to think you are somehow winning this imaginary competition we are having about who is right. So go ahead and criticize me taking a step back and questioning my concerns with a candidate but as youre calling me close minded remember that I have clearly said I am being extremely critical of every candidate. I dont affiliate myself with either party and I am simply voicing my concerns about the substance of the candidates. I dont think Im alone when I say Im not happy with a lot of the things that are going in this country and you better believe Im gonna ask more questions this time around then in 2000 when I voted for Bush just because at the time I considered myself a Republican. There are a lot of people that vote based on the party instead of the candidate and that wont be me anymore but its painfully obvious there is plenty of that around here. So as you continue to call me closed minded even though I am holding all three candidates to the same standard and you are blindly defending the candidate of your choice just remember that I openly say I know everything I post is my opinion and anyone that has a different opinion isnt wrong to them just as mine isnt to me but I would like to have my opinions respected just as I respect others even if you dont agree with it.

See bolded. That's exactly what I am talking about - the leap of assumption you continue to make. No one disagrees that the part of his sermon we've all seen on YouTube was bad. No one. But you then make the jump from the comments being racist, to the reverend being racist, then make a further jump to Obama being racist. Those are huge jumps to make, unless of course you have sat down and watched the man's sermons and can say this is who he is. Have you done that?

 

[iamshack]

DrunkBomber,

It isn't that we "selectively" are choosing what to react to or comment on because we can't put a dent in your rock-solid logic. It's that you go on and on with these rants and raves, off on tangents, etc. Simply because most of us choose to ignore most of them, such as your "opinion on trial" rant from earlier, does not mean you were in any way winning some sort of debate points. It means that no one felt like wasting their time and energy responding to your rant.

 

Now just a few things: I've watched the larger sermons posted of Rev. Wright on YouTube, and to be honest with you, while they were inflammatory, I didn't even find them to be racist. But even if you do, as others obviously do, I'm a little confused about your reaction. You're on record in this thread over and over and over talking about Rev. Wright spewing hatred and how offensive it is to you, and yet you're also the one throwing the "racist" label around like you're playing ring toss and we are the targets. If you really cannot stand the hatred and inflammatory rhetoric, why don't you attempt to refrain from participating in that a bit yourself?

 

In two threads in which you've participated heavily, you've now labeled Rev. Wright as racist, Barack Obama as racist, Michelle Obama as racist...what is all this accomplishing, other than to be more divisive?

 

If those who are deeply offended by Obama's connections to Rev. Wright wish not to support Obama, they have that right. I'm not understanding what they want those of us who are not particularly offended by it, such as myself, to do about it.

 

 

 

[DrunkBomber]

See bolded. That's exactly what I am talking about - the leap of assumption you continue to make. No one disagrees that the part of his sermon we've all seen on YouTube was bad. No one. But you then make the jump from the comments being racist, to the reverend being racist, then make a further jump to Obama being racist. Those are huge jumps to make, unless of course you have sat down and watched the man's sermons and can say this is who he is. Have you done that?

Like I keep saying it is my opinion and my opinion isnt on trial. I absolutely do not need to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt to form my opinion. Just because you think its too much of a stretch to call Wright racist doesnt mean I have to. You also have never sat through one of his rants so you are in no way more credible than anyone else. I will stand by my belief that I gathered more than enough evidence for me to think Wright is racist. Its not like he said something that can be misinterpreted. He is flat out spewing hate and I have a big problem with him or anyone that supports him. Your post is acting as an apologist and if thats your prerogative thats fine. If you want to make excuses for Wright go ahead just know that you havent said anything even close to a defense for such hate and if you want to turn the other cheek simply because youre liberal go ahead. I expect more from a presidential candidate and I am 100% confident in the conclusions Ive drawn about Wright and I think its pretty naive on your part to think you know any more about the subject.

[NorthSideSox72]

Like I keep saying it is my opinion and my opinion isnt on trial. I absolutely do not need to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt to form my opinion. Just because you think its too much of a stretch to call Wright racist doesnt mean I have to. You also have never sat through one of his rants so you are in no way more credible than anyone else. I will stand by my belief that I gathered more than enough evidence for me to think Wright is racist. Its not like he said something that can be misinterpreted. He is flat out spewing hate and I have a big problem with him or anyone that supports him. Your post is acting as an apologist and if thats your prerogative thats fine. If you want to make excuses for Wright go ahead just know that you havent said anything even close to a defense for such hate and if you want to turn the other cheek simply because youre liberal go ahead. I expect more from a presidential candidate and I am 100% confident in the conclusions Ive drawn about Wright and I think its pretty naive on your part to think you know any more about the subject.

I don't know any more on the subject - that's the point. You act as if seeing one video gives you enough knowledge to label the man and all his followers racists. That is closed-minded in the extreme. Not once have I said Wright isn't a racist or bigoted jerk, because he might be - I don't know.

 

If you want to delude yourself into thinking you can judge everyone based on one moment of poor judgement (or even more amazingly, on one moment of poor judgement by their pastor), then I wish you the best of luck in the dark place the world must be for you.

 

[lostfan]

I simply love the scorn, derision, and contempt that is applied to anybody who hesitates to take these silly, non-existent leaps of logic.

[StrangeSox]

Like I keep saying it is my opinion and my opinion isnt on trial. I absolutely do not need to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt to form my opinion. Just because you think its too much of a stretch to call Wright racist doesnt mean I have to. You also have never sat through one of his rants so you are in no way more credible than anyone else. I will stand by my belief that I gathered more than enough evidence for me to think Wright is racist. Its not like he said something that can be misinterpreted. He is flat out spewing hate and I have a big problem with him or anyone that supports him. Your post is acting as an apologist and if thats your prerogative thats fine. If you want to make excuses for Wright go ahead just know that you havent said anything even close to a defense for such hate and if you want to turn the other cheek simply because youre liberal go ahead. I expect more from a presidential candidate and I am 100% confident in the conclusions Ive drawn about Wright and I think its pretty naive on your part to think you know any more about the subject.

No you don't, but if you're going to post your opinion in an online discussion forum, you should be prepared to defend it. Instead, you're just lashing out at anyone who questions whether or not your opinion is well-founded and asks you to explain the apparent leaps of logic.

[Controlled Chaos]

I don't know any more on the subject - that's the point. You act as if seeing one video gives you enough knowledge to label the man and all his followers racists. That is closed-minded in the extreme. Not once have I said Wright isn't a racist or bigoted jerk, because he might be - I don't know.

 

If you want to delude yourself into thinking you can judge everyone based on one moment of poor judgement (or even more amazingly, on one moment of poor judgement by their pastor), then I wish you the best of luck in the dark place the world must be for you.

 

You know very well it wasn't only a one time thing. You may be trying to make Drunk look bad, but you come off as the fool when you make a comment like that.

[DrunkBomber]

DrunkBomber,

It isn't that we "selectively" are choosing what to react to or comment on because we can't put a dent in your rock-solid logic. It's that you go on and on with these rants and raves, off on tangents, etc. Simply because most of us choose to ignore most of them, such as your "opinion on trial" rant from earlier, does not mean you were in any way winning some sort of debate points. It means that no one felt like wasting their time and energy responding to your rant.

 

Now just a few things: I've watched the larger sermons posted of Rev. Wright on YouTube, and to be honest with you, while they were inflammatory, I didn't even find them to be racist. But even if you do, as others obviously do, I'm a little confused about your reaction. You're on record in this thread over and over and over talking about Rev. Wright spewing hatred and how offensive it is to you, and yet you're also the one throwing the "racist" label around like you're playing ring toss and we are the targets. If you really cannot stand the hatred and inflammatory rhetoric, why don't you attempt to refrain from participating in that a bit yourself?

 

In two threads in which you've participated heavily, you've now labeled Rev. Wright as racist, Barack Obama as racist, Michelle Obama as racist...what is all this accomplishing, other than to be more divisive?

 

If those who are deeply offended by Obama's connections to Rev. Wright wish not to support Obama, they have that right. I'm not understanding what they want those of us who are not particularly offended by it, such as myself, to do about it.

My use of the word racist is in response to specific things done and said by the people I am talking about and isnt being pulled out of thin air. Ive obviously said I think Wright and Michelle Obama are racist, and I honestly feel that way. Ive also questioned Obama based on the people he surrounds himself with and by his comments on the radio show about his grandmother being a typical white person. Im not trying to change anybody elses opinions, Im explaining mine and I absolutely stand by my comments about racism just as I did in the other thread that got locked. Im sick of the double standard in terms of racism and Im sick of it being ok to be so openly racist, such as Wright is, just because it is geared towards white "devils."

 

If the shoe were on the other foot and it was a white person who said this level of stuff Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be protesting and calling for the person to be fired but its ok for this guy to say it because hes black. Now, its fairly obvious people are taking jabs at others in this thread to get under their skin and you guys can pile up on me all you want for sticking to my guns but as you CONTINUE to call my opinions wrong realize not one of you has said anything thats even in the realm of discrediting my views. You can use the excuse that the videos on youtube are only a sampling of Wrights sermons and repeat it 100 times but unless theres a big "just kidding" at the end of it then 1 time is all I need. This wasnt something that slipped out, this was a prepared sermon and he knew very well what he was saying and nobody has retracted it.

 

So as unrealistic as Im being to some of you because Im offended by Wright and I have a big problem with Obamas relationship with him I suppose we will have to wait about 6 months to see if I am alone. While there might not be as many people that are as vocal about it as I am it will affect the polls and should be more than enough to keep him out of office as the party you guys so blindly follow continues to destroy their chances in the general election and lose what should have been the second consecutive slam dunk election for the dems. So you guys can label me anything you want and think Im wrong until the election is over but if I want to call someone racist I will. There isnt one person on here who has any more credibility than anyone else and you guys seem to think because youve got the numbers here that you are by default right. So if youre not offended by Wright comments why are you even in here criticizing someone else because they are?

[NorthSideSox72]

You know very well it wasn't only a one time thing. You may be trying to make Drunk look bad, but you come off as the fool when you make a comment like that.

I know that? No, I do not. Do you know otherwise?

 

I'd bet the guy probably has said divisive things before. Obama has admitted that is the case, and it makes sense. If I had to guess, that would be my guess - I just prefer not to guess. But my point stands - he is judging Wright, and Obama, as being racists, because of one video.

 

Prove me wrong. Have you or Mr. Drunk or anyone else seen more than a couple of these videos? Heck, have you or they even watched the entire video of that sermon (which I have, in this case), not just the few "highlights"?

 

[Texsox]

I would not want to be judged on what friends, former friends, or even pastors now believe, write, speak out about, etc. I'm surprised that anyone here would hold themselves up to the same standard.

[lostfan]

You know very well it wasn't only a one time thing. You may be trying to make Drunk look bad, but you come off as the fool when you make a comment like that.

Actually I had originally said something about extrapolating 30 seconds over 20 years (what I was getting at was deliberately going to ridiculous, impossible extremes), coincidentally the reply to this was the one that prompted me to put him on ignore since he'd been pissing me off with his tone towards me in another thread. Anyway that reply, in direct response to me talking about those short clips, said "I've seen all I need to know." So no, NorthSide is pretty much talking about exactly what was said, and isn't cutting anything out to make him look bad.

[DrunkBomber]

No you don't, but if you're going to post your opinion in an online discussion forum, you should be prepared to defend it. Instead, you're just lashing out at anyone who questions whether or not your opinion is well-founded and asks you to explain the apparent leaps of logic.

Give me a break. I have continued to say OVER and OVER that this is my opinion, this is how I formed it, this is why it bothers me and I know you may not agree with it but its my opinion and Im entitled to it just as everyone else is to theirs. I have addressed every last statement geared towards me and answered any questions anyone has asked me about how I come to my conclusions. I havent shied away from anything and I continue to get called things like closed minded when every single person in here is doing the same thing I am just on a different side but all of you are being noble and defending the truth and Im just wrong.

[EvilMonkey]

I would not want to be judged on what friends, former friends, or even pastors now believe, write, speak out about, etc. I'm surprised that anyone here would hold themselves up to the same standard.

Yet advertisers, celebs and politicians all ran for the hills to get away from Imus so as not to be painted with the racism brush.

[NorthSideSox72]

My use of the word racist is in response to specific things done and said by the people I am talking about and isnt being pulled out of thin air. Ive obviously said I think Wright and Michelle Obama are racist, and I honestly feel that way. Ive also questioned Obama based on the people he surrounds himself with and by his comments on the radio show about his grandmother being a typical white person. Im not trying to change anybody elses opinions, Im explaining mine and I absolutely stand by my comments about racism just as I did in the other thread that got locked. Im sick of the double standard in terms of racism and Im sick of it being ok to be so openly racist, such as Wright is, just because it is geared towards white "devils."

 

If the shoe were on the other foot and it was a white person who said this level of stuff Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be protesting and calling for the person to be fired but its ok for this guy to say it because hes black. Now, its fairly obvious people are taking jabs at others in this thread to get under their skin and you guys can pile up on me all you want for sticking to my guns but as you CONTINUE to call my opinions wrong realize not one of you has said anything thats even in the realm of discrediting my views. You can use the excuse that the videos on youtube are only a sampling of Wrights sermons and repeat it 100 times but unless theres a big "just kidding" at the end of it then 1 time is all I need. This wasnt something that slipped out, this was a prepared sermon and he knew very well what he was saying and nobody has retracted it.

 

So as unrealistic as Im being to some of you because Im offended by Wright and I have a big problem with Obamas relationship with him I suppose we will have to wait about 6 months to see if I am alone. While there might not be as many people that are as vocal about it as I am it will affect the polls and should be more than enough to keep him out of office as the party you guys so blindly follow continues to destroy their chances in the general election and lose what should have been the second consecutive slam dunk election for the dems. So you guys can label me anything you want and think Im wrong until the election is over but if I want to call someone racist I will. There isnt one person on here who has any more credibility than anyone else and you guys seem to think because youve got the numbers here that you are by default right. So if youre not offended by Wright comments why are you even in here criticizing someone else because they are?

 

seriously, again, you keep making yourself out to be a victim of arguments that no one is making. No one is saying his comments weren't bad. And yet you still seem to think that judging people on one sermon by the pastor is, in your words, its :all I need". Since you are apparently incapable of seeing how that makes it impossible to have a cogent discussion with you, let's try a different topic you brought up - the effect on the election.

 

Now here maybe we can have a good discussion. I certainly agree it will have an effect on the election - but ultimately, I think the effect will be negligible, and I'll try to explain why... who is it that is most up in arms over this? Clearly, its the conservatives/neo-cons in the center an right of the GOP. How many of them were going to vote for Obama to being with? Very very, few.

 

[DrunkBomber]

I know that? No, I do not. Do you know otherwise?

 

I'd bet the guy probably has said divisive things before. Obama has admitted that is the case, and it makes sense. If I had to guess, that would be my guess - I just prefer not to guess. But my point stands - he is judging Wright, and Obama, as being racists, because of one video.

 

Prove me wrong. Have you or Mr. Drunk or anyone else seen more than a couple of these videos? Heck, have you or they even watched the entire video of that sermon (which I have, in this case), not just the few "highlights"?

Out of curiosity, how many people honestly think its as unreasonable as Northside to draw the conclusion that Wright is racist based on not one, but all the videos (including the longer one) and Obamas reaction to him? Obama himself said he has heard Wright say that stuff on more than one occasion so if it wasnt that bad Obama wouldnt have to separate himself from him.

 

If you need more proof that Wright is racist and want to continue with that explanation thats fine, but its far from unreasonable for someone to draw that conclusion.

[DrunkBomber]

 

seriously, again, you keep making yourself out to be a victim of arguments that no one is making. No one is saying his comments weren't bad. And yet you still seem to think that judging people on one sermon by the pastor is, in your words, its :all I need". Since you are apparently incapable of seeing how that makes it impossible to have a cogent discussion with you, let's try a different topic you brought up - the effect on the election.

 

Now here maybe we can have a good discussion. I certainly agree it will have an effect on the election - but ultimately, I think the effect will be negligible, and I'll try to explain why... who is it that is most up in arms over this? Clearly, its the conservatives/neo-cons in the center an right of the GOP. How many of them were going to vote for Obama to being with? Very very, few.

In terms of its affect on the election we know the far right will be going for McCain no matter what. Where I think it will hurt him is with Clinton supporters. The two candidates have created as much separation between the sides as there is between the right and left and a lot of Clinton supporters are going to vote for the third liberal McCain.

[Controlled Chaos]

I know that? No, I do not. Do you know otherwise?

 

I'd bet the guy probably has said divisive things before. Obama has admitted that is the case, and it makes sense. If I had to guess, that would be my guess - I just prefer not to guess. But my point stands - he is judging Wright, and Obama, as being racists, because of one video.

 

Prove me wrong. Have you or Mr. Drunk or anyone else seen more than a couple of these videos? Heck, have you or they even watched the entire video of that sermon (which I have, in this case), not just the few "highlights"?

I ain't gonna argue with you about all this...I've seen your comments on the matter, all I'm saying is you said it was just 'one moment of poor judgement' but there is more than one video...more than one moment of poor judgement in each video, there is also Barack admitting he sat there and listened to this stuff...there is also his connection with Farrakhan, there are also quotes from him in the church's magazine....so I think it's ludicrous for anyone to say this was ONE moment of poor judgement.

 

I have seen enough and read enough to know how pastor Wright looks down his watermelon soaked nose at me and I will judge him and whoever associates themselves with him accordingly.

[NorthSideSox72]

In terms of its affect on the election we know the far right will be going for McCain no matter what. Where I think it will hurt him is with Clinton supporters. The two candidates have created as much separation between the sides as there is between the right and left and a lot of Clinton supporters are going to vote for the third liberal McCain.

I think that whether Obama or Clinton win the nomination, the democrats will fall behind the chosen candidate. The only question is the independents, like me. And if you look at the polls among independents, and who they choose for the Dem nomination, Obama wins overwhelmingly. So I think the number of independents who choose Clinton over McCain but McCain over Obama are going to be a rarity. It in fact indicates the flipside more likely - that Obama supporters may go to McCain over Clinton. I am in that camp, as it happens to be.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I have seen enough and read enough to know how pastor Wright looks down his watermelon soaked nose at me and I will judge him and whoever associates themselves with him accordingly.

Thank you for making my point so perfectly.

 

[kapkomet]

Thank you for making my point so perfectly.

ok, so this comment is different then what Wright said, how?

 

I suppose now we have to label CC as a racist. What a slippery slope.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

ok, so this comment is different then what Wright said, how?

 

I suppose now we have to label CC as a racist. What a slippery slope.

Its not different. And that's why its so ironic. I'd label that comment as racist, but I wouldn't extend that to CC as a person. And yet, by CC's own method (and DrunkBomber, and YAS), he would have to label himself as a racist. And for that matter, since I read his posts regularly, by extension, I must be one too!

 

Damn right its a slippery slope.

 

[BigSqwert]

I have seen enough and read enough to know how pastor Wright looks down his watermelon soaked nose at me and I will judge him and whoever associates themselves with him accordingly.

Classy!

[Controlled Chaos]

Its not different. And that's why its so ironic. I'd label that comment as racist, but I wouldn't extend that to CC as a person. And yet, by CC's own method (and DrunkBomber, and YAS), he would have to label himself as a racist. And for that matter, since I read his posts regularly, by extension, I must be one too!

 

Damn right its a slippery slope.

If the only thing I ever heard Wright say was 'Italians looked down their garlic noses' and I deemed him a racist for that...I would say I was the one that was nuts. But it's more than one comment...

 

 

[Controlled Chaos]

Classy!

thanks!!