Discussion of racism and Michelle Obama

[DrunkBomber]

Both. It's just how polls work. There is typically an "OH MY GOD" reaction, then people actually absorb what happened ann think "well, it isnt THAT bad". And, the speech was pretty darn good. It probably gave him the boost he needed to edge back in front.

 

I think this richardson think might push him all the way to 50% or above.

IMO that speech officially cost him the election if he gets the nomination. I would have thought it would be a slam dunk for the dems to pull this election off but I think this race is doing too much harm to either candidate.

[NorthSideSox72]

IMO that speech officially cost him the election if he gets the nomination. I would have thought it would be a slam dunk for the dems to pull this election off but I think this race is doing too much harm to either candidate.

Of all the things that might blow it for Obama, you think it was his speech? To the contrary, I think that helped him significantly. And the polls seem to reflect that.

 

[DrunkBomber]

Of all the things that might blow it for Obama, you think it was his speech? To the contrary, I think that helped him significantly. And the polls seem to reflect that.

I thought it would be very difficult for him to win if he got the nomination before that, I just think that he cost himself a lot of votes with the white community. Ive personally met a few people that have completely changed their minds about him in the past few days. I also think once the nomination is solidified for either candidate the republicans are going to unload on. I never understand why the democratic party doesnt understand the negative effect these smear campaigns have on the general election.

[NorthSideSox72]

I thought it would be very difficult for him to win if he got the nomination before that, I just think that he cost himself a lot of votes with the white community. Ive personally met a few people that have completely changed their minds about him in the past few days. I also think once the nomination is solidified for either candidate the republicans are going to unload on. I never understand why the democratic party doesnt understand the negative effect these smear campaigns have on the general election.

That's interesting. Personal experience aside (most people I know liked the speech but weren't swayed to/from by it), the polls seem to indicate the speech helped him out. Or something else did. Do you have any theories as to what else has caused him to go from 7 points down to 3 points up in national polls in the past few days (both Gallup and Rasmussen)?

 

Honestly, the only people I've heard from, or read or seen, that didn't like the speech, were people who wouldn't have voted for him in the first place.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I thought it would be very difficult for him to win if he got the nomination before that, I just think that he cost himself a lot of votes with the white community. Ive personally met a few people that have completely changed their minds about him in the past few days. I also think once the nomination is solidified for either candidate the republicans are going to unload on. I never understand why the democratic party doesnt understand the negative effect these smear campaigns have on the general election.

Also, from your personal perspective, what in that speech was somehow offensive to whites? I just don't get that.

 

[DrunkBomber]

Also, from your personal perspective, what in that speech was somehow offensive to whites? I just don't get that.

I just find it offensive that he is completely trying to play both ends of the spectrum. IMO, he loses credibility by saying he knows what its like to be black and white and trying to empathize with both sides. In all actuality he doesnt completely know what its like to be either. Than he goes on the radio talk show in Philly and explain that what he meant about his grandmother being scared of black people is that she is a typical white person. As I said many times in the thread about his Pastor Im not sold on his explanation of issues about that guy or even his comments about affirmative action in regards to his wife.

 

She got into a college ahead of someone who was more qualified BECAUSE of the color of her skin and then has the audacity to write a senior thesis about overcoming white oppression and say that only recently she was proud of her country even though this countries policy got her into a college ahead of someone else. I just dont want to hear this guy pretend like he knows what its like to be everyone and use that as a ploy to discuss taboos other cant because they will be labeled racist.

[KipWellsFan]

She got into a college ahead of someone who was more qualified BECAUSE of the color of her skin

 

Do you have any evidence of this?

[DrunkBomber]

Do you have any evidence of this?

Are you serious? You think Im making that up? He even acknowledged it in his speech.

[BigSqwert]

Are you serious? You think Im making that up? He even acknowledged it in his speech.

I did a search for the words "wife" and "Michelle" on the speech and had no results. Can you provide a quote?

[KipWellsFan]

Are you serious? You think Im making that up? He even acknowledged it in his speech.

 

Do you have proof that Michelle Obama got into Princeton over more accomplished students because of the color of her skin?

[NorthSideSox72]

I don't normally do this, but, let's parse this out a bit...

 

I just find it offensive that he is completely trying to play both ends of the spectrum.

 

Offensive? Really? I think that's exactly what makes him a good candidate. There is an important difference between being dupicitous - which is to say politically, telling different stories to different audiences - and being open to both sides of any given spectrum. Obama has done an excellent job of trying to "play" to both sides, without being dishonest or setting those sides against each other. Not only is that not what I'd call offensive, its in fact a nice change in politics.

 

IMO, he loses credibility by saying he knows what its like to be black and white and trying to empathize with both sides. In all actuality he doesnt completely know what its like to be either.

 

Of course he doesn't "completely know" what its like to be either, and he'd never say that. He's seen glimpses of both, experienced both, at different times, obviously. Also, read these two sentences you typed again, in order - you have set a trap there that no person could ever escape. You have basically cornered him so that he can't possible empathize with either "side", which I think is ridiculous. Why can't he empathize with either side?

 

Than he goes on the radio talk show in Philly and explain that what he meant about his grandmother being scared of black people is that she is a typical white person. As I said many times in the thread about his Pastor Im not sold on his explanation of issues about that guy or even his comments about affirmative action in regards to his wife.

 

No doubt, that line he gave in discussing his grandmother being a "typical white person" was not a good thing to say. No argument there.

 

She got into a college ahead of someone who was more qualified BECAUSE of the color of her skin

 

I'm going to have to echo my comrades here - proof? Has this ever been established? Its news to me, if it is true. I am not saying its not, because I don't know. But I have never read anything of the sort, and his speech certainly never said it. No wonder you didn't like the speech - you must have been reading some doctored up version of it!

 

then has the audacity to write a senior thesis about overcoming white oppression

 

I haven't read her thesis, but most of the articles I've seen discussing it don't put it in that light. The word "oppression" is not what has been used to describe it. But, in terms of her discussing her perceived uphill battle because of her race... why is that hard to believe? Do you have some illusion that racism is no longer present in this society?

 

and say that only recently she was proud of her country

 

Indeed that was an inflammatory and stupid thing for her to say.

 

even though this countries policy got her into a college ahead of someone else.

 

Again, proof?

 

I just dont want to hear this guy pretend like he knows what its like to be everyone and use that as a ploy to discuss taboos other cant because they will be labeled racist.

 

I have never gotten the impression he's pretending to be someone he isn't, nor have I seen or heard him even hint that he has any privilege in discussing topics others cannot. Quite the opposite, it seems to me he is trying to get people to talk about things they don't feel comfortable discussing. I personally think that's good.

 

Reading your post, I have to say, I really doubt you would have voted for Obama before OR after the speech. I think your mind was set on him a long time ago.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Are you serious? You think Im making that up? He even acknowledged it in his speech.

He did nothing of the sort. Seriously, where are you getting this?

 

[DrunkBomber]

Newsweek good enough proof for you?

 

Michelle felt the tension acutely enough that she made it the subject of her senior sociology thesis, titled "Princeton-Educated Blacks and the Black Community." The paper is now under lock and key, but according to the Chicago Sun-Times, Michelle wrote that Princeton "made me far more aware of my 'blackness' than ever before." She wrote that she felt like a visitor on the supposedly open-minded campus. "Regardless of the circumstances under which I interact with Whites at Princeton," she wrote, "it often seems as if, to them, I will always be Black first and a student second." (Today, Michelle says, not quite convincingly, that she can't remember what was in her thesis.)

 

She didn't share such concerns with her parents, who were proud of their college-bound children. "She didn't talk about it a lot," says her mother, Marian. "I just learned from reading some articles that she did feel like she was different from other people. But she never let that bother her." Instead, Michelle was determined to prove that no matter how she got there, she deserved her place in the class: she graduated with departmental honors and was accepted to Harvard Law School.

 

At Harvard, she felt the same racial divide. Verna Williams and Michelle became friends in their first year of law school. She remembers many of their fellow black students worrying that white classmates viewed them as charity cases. But she suggests Michelle was not among them. "She recognized that she had been privileged by affirmative action and she was very comfortable with that," Williams recalls.

[NorthSideSox72]

Newsweek good enough proof for you?

Quite so, thank you - which is why I am glad I continued reading into the next graf...

 

Michelle recalls things differently. A campaign spokeswoman says she had an edge getting into Princeton not because of affirmative action, but because her older brother was there as a scholar athlete. She was a "legacy," just like any other applicant with family ties to Princeton. Her aides say Michelle earned her way into Harvard on merit by distinguishing herself at Princeton.

 

Seems she got in for a different non-academic reason - legacy.

 

In any case, there doesn't seem to be any way to know if she got in that way or not. For the record, I personally disagree with affirmative action, as I think it causes more harm than good. But in this case, it seems she may or may not have gotten in that way.

 

And again, as said earlier, there was no indication of this in his speech that I can find or recall.

 

[DrunkBomber]

Quite so, thank you - which is why I am glad I continued reading into the next graf...

Seems she got in for a different non-academic reason - legacy.

 

In any case, there doesn't seem to be any way to know if she got in that way or not. For the record, I personally disagree with affirmative action, as I think it causes more harm than good. But in this case, it seems she may or may not have gotten in that way.

 

And again, as said earlier, there was no indication of this in his speech that I can find or recall.

Almost anybody that has been following this story knows that she benefited from affirmative action but you just seem to not want to believe it. I did a search on google and tons of articles popped up but since most of them were blogs I didnt even bother because I know that isnt the "proof" you wanted. Me being a white male, I personally have a problem with the comments about race from him and the people close to him and Im not scared to discuss them.

 

In his speech he touched on white peoples resentment towards things like affirmative action which was what I was getting at:

 

In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

 

IMO

[DrunkBomber]

Also, heres a quote pulled right from her senior thesis, try reading between the lines:

 

"Regardless of the circumstances under which I interact with whites at Princeton, it often seems as if, to them, I will always be black first and a student second." When unqualified blacks are admitted to college because of their race, they'll be black first, students second. This is very sad."

[Balta1701]

To ask the question in a different way...what exactly would an African American have to do in your eyes to not be classified as a racist? From what I can see, you're basically saying that because anyone either the Obama family or the people around them have acknowledged race in any way that you as a white male do not find perfectly appropriate for your community and background you're concluding that they're all racists and are going to send Whitey to concentration camps.

 

Clearly I'm exaggerating the last part, but what exactly are you alleging here?

[NorthSideSox72]

Almost anybody that has been following this story knows that she benefited from affirmative action but you just seem to not want to believe it. I did a search on google and tons of articles popped up but since most of them were blogs I didnt even bother because I know that isnt the "proof" you wanted. Me being a white male, I personally have a problem with the comments about race from him and the people close to him and Im not scared to discuss them.

 

In his speech he touched on white peoples resentment towards things like affirmative action which was what I was getting at:

IMO

Sorry if I haven't heard "almost anybody" saying this. and if you read more carefully, you'll see that I very specifically stated she may very well have gotten in for that reason - but that there is no proof of it. She may or may not have - how is that unclear to you? And how are you jumping to the conclusion that its the case, without proof?

 

So, by your logic, he isn't "warranted" to discuss white resentment, but you ALSO say he shouldn't discuss perceived racism against blacks. What CAN he discuss, in your view? The White Sox?

 

His wife is a racist? Where does that come from?

 

You are clearly someone who was never going to support Obama in the first place, which is just fine and dandy. Like I said, there are plenty of reasons not to. But to take such offense at his speech is, to me, just making an excuse for your real reasoning. Its a convenient event to hang your dislike on. And that's a shame, because that kind of thing tends to ruin the opportunity we have to be upfront and honest about some things - which is what he was attempting to do with that speech.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Also, heres a quote pulled right from her senior thesis, try reading between the lines:

 

"Regardless of the circumstances under which I interact with whites at Princeton, it often seems as if, to them, I will always be black first and a student second." When unqualified blacks are admitted to college because of their race, they'll be black first, students second. This is very sad."

The articles I've read have said that her thesis is under wraps. Do you have a link to it? I'd like to perhaps read parts of it, if its not excessively long.

 

[DrunkBomber]

To ask the question in a different way...what exactly would an African American have to do in your eyes to not be classified as a racist? From what I can see, you're basically saying that because anyone either the Obama family or the people around them have acknowledged race in any way that you as a white male do not find perfectly appropriate for your community and background you're concluding that they're all racists and are going to send Whitey to concentration camps.

 

Clearly I'm exaggerating the last part, but what exactly are you alleging here?

Are you seriously gonna try to twist what I said like that? "theyre all racists?" Give me a break. I said his wife is racist, his Pastor is racist and when he calls someone a typical white person he shows a glimpse of him being racist. Were not talking about a talk show host or an activist. This is a candidate to be the president of the country I live in and all of a sudden my concerns with things that the candidate said regarding race Im "concluding" something?

 

Since Ive drawn some sort of inaccurate conclusion according to you, do you not think his pastor is racist? Were his comments about his grandmother being a "typical white person" not inappropriate and uncalled for? Also, since all of a sudden Im making up the fact that his wife got into college because of affirmative action, lets say for arguments sake she did, then you dont have a problem with her comments about being proud of her country for the first time?

[DrunkBomber]

The articles I've read have said that her thesis is under wraps. Do you have a link to it? I'd like to perhaps read parts of it, if its not excessively long.

Its pretty long, I could see how it would be hard to find it. Luckily for us Im pretty resourceful despite being so misinformed. I went to a website called Yahoo! Typed in Michelle Obama Thesis in a search bar and then continued to press the enter button. I was then brought to a whole page of results in search of finding the white whale (no pun intended) and low and behold the very first site that came up, politico.com was more than willing to share this once impossible to find document.

 

Since apparently Im one of the few people that read this masterpiece I would recommend page 9ish if you would like to find where I pulled some of my quotes from.

 

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8642.html

Edited March 23, 2008 by DrunkBomber

[DrunkBomber]

Quite so, thank you - which is why I am glad I continued reading into the next graf...

Seems she got in for a different non-academic reason - legacy.

 

In any case, there doesn't seem to be any way to know if she got in that way or not. For the record, I personally disagree with affirmative action, as I think it causes more harm than good. But in this case, it seems she may or may not have gotten in that way.

 

And again, as said earlier, there was no indication of this in his speech that I can find or recall.

Also, I forgot to address this but do you realize that SHE personally said in the interview that she got into Princeton because of affirmative action but a CAMPAIGN SPOKESPERSON said otherwise? Is that seriously what you tried to use to combat the argument? Youre going to take a campaign spokespersons word over the actual person and then act like I had been exposed by trying to cover that page up or something.

[BigSqwert]

Also, I forgot to address this but do you realize that SHE personally said in the interview that she got into Princeton because of affirmative action but a CAMPAIGN SPOKESPERSON said otherwise? Is that seriously what you tried to use to combat the argument? Youre going to take a campaign spokespersons word over the actual person and then act like I had been exposed by trying to cover that page up or something.

The next 8 years of your life are going to be miserable with a huge racist running the show.

[DrunkBomber]

The next 8 years of your life are going to be miserable with a huge racist running the show.

I dont like McCains policy on immigration either but I dont know if its bad enough to label him a racist.

[KipWellsFan]

Are you seriously gonna try to twist what I said like that? "theyre all racists?" Give me a break. I said his wife is racist, his Pastor is racist and when he calls someone a typical white person he shows a glimpse of him being racist. Were not talking about a talk show host or an activist. This is a candidate to be the president of the country I live in and all of a sudden my concerns with things that the candidate said regarding race Im "concluding" something?

 

Since Ive drawn some sort of inaccurate conclusion according to you, do you not think his pastor is racist? Were his comments about his grandmother being a "typical white person" not inappropriate and uncalled for? Also, since all of a sudden Im making up the fact that his wife got into college because of affirmative action, lets say for arguments sake she did, then you dont have a problem with her comments about being proud of her country for the first time?

 

I just think you should be careful tossing around the word racist.