Discussion of racism and Michelle Obama

[Harry Chappas]

I am lost here. So Obama's wife got into Princeton due to affirmative action, she writes that she felt that she was not totally accepted because of this. She then proceeds to go to Harvard....I got this, I think

 

Then she comes out and states that she is finally happy that the country has risen up to back her husband and pay attention and now she is proud to be an American.

 

I am a little uncertain as to how this translates into racist behavior. Clearly there is a divide to a degree where blacks and whites are not comfortable with one another as much as they are with their own class. She writes about this in a Sociology thesis.

 

A couple of things, what exactly is racist here? Also, I was not aware that she was that well educated. Hell if Obama wins she can run for Senate and President in 2020.

 

Sorry if I am missing the point.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Jenks Heat

[DrunkBomber]

I'm still going to question how any individual person knows that they got into school on their own merit or because of AA.

 

She may believe she benefited from AA, but does she know for sure? Would should still have gotten in without AA?

It could be a number of things. It could have been because of her standardized testing scores compared to universities requirements. Someone could have told her, etc. Obviously the thought has crossed her mind because it has been brought up and discussed on various platforms.

[StrangeSox]

It could be a number of things. It could have been because of her standardized testing scores compared to universities requirements. Someone could have told her, etc. Obviously the thought has crossed her mind because it has been brought up and discussed on various platforms.

 

I'm sure the thought crossed her mind. She wrote a thesis about it. Does she KNOW that she got in because of AA? Has she clearly stated that she believes she got in because of AA? The article you keep posting is a quote from Verna Williams, not Michele Obama.

Edited March 24, 2008 by StrangeSox

[DrunkBomber]

I am lost here. So Obama's wife got into Princeton due to affirmative action, she writes that she felt that she was not totally accepted because of this. She then proceeds to go to Harvard....I got this, I think

 

Then she comes out and states that she is finally happy that the country risen up to back her husband and pay attention and now she is proud to be an American.

 

I am a little uncertain as to how this translates into racist behavior. Clearly there is a divide to degree where blacks and whites are not comfortable wiht one another as they are with their own class. She writes about this in a Sociology thesis.

 

A couple of things what exactly is racist here? Also, I was not aware that she was that well educated. Hell if Obama wins she can run for Senate and President in 2020.

 

Sorry if I am missing the point.

Since its apparent that nobody will acknowledge the possibility of AA unless it is written in finite I will state why I think she is racist contingent on this being true, which I strongly believe it is. IMO, AA is a form of racism in its own degree and if it is used then it doesnt only affect the beneficiary. That would mean someone more qualified was turned down because of the color of their skin and missed out on going to Princeton. Then she writes about having a chip on her shoulder and that people treated her differently because of the color of her skin and she is making it sound like she is some kind of victim of racism even though the ONLY victim of racism in that case is the student that got denied entry to the university.

 

So in this country that she has never been proud of until recently gave her an advantage with her education and instead of being grateful she acts like she was entitled to something. I also hold her to the same criticism I do Barrack in terms of choosing their church and continuing to support such an open racist.

[DrunkBomber]

I'm sure the thought crossed her mind. She wrote a thesis about it. Does she KNOW that she got in because of AA? Has she clearly stated that she believes she got in because of AA? The article you keep posting is a quote from Verna Williams, not Michele Obama.

The reason why I posted that one is because Newsweek is the most credible source I found when searching for proof so I apologize for the confusion. There are a lot of political blogs that talk about the issue but again there is no definitive proof. That quote however is from someone close to her and is about Michelle so its not like Im pulling this out of thin air. EVeryone in this thread seems to think Im making this up when it has been a popular topic on news shows and articles online and even people close to her seem to think AA played a part in her education. If its worth anything I can post links to the blogs that talk about it but they arent credible enough to post alone.

[StrangeSox]

Since its apparent that nobody will acknowledge the possibility of AA unless it is written in finite I will state why I think she is racist contingent on this being true, which I strongly believe it is. IMO, AA is a form of racism in its own degree and if it is used then it doesnt only affect the beneficiary. That would mean someone more qualified was turned down because of the color of their skin and missed out on going to Princeton. Then she writes about having a chip on her shoulder and that people treated her differently because of the color of her skin and she is making it sound like she is some kind of victim of racism even though the ONLY victim of racism in that case is the student that got denied entry to the university.

 

So in this country that she has never been proud of until recently gave her an advantage with her education and instead of being grateful she acts like she was entitled to something. I also hold her to the same criticism I do Barrack in terms of choosing their church and continuing to support such an open racist.

 

So, in other words, you don't have anything to back up your assertions aside from a quote from a friend? Aside from that quote from her friend, there's no evidence pointing towards her getting in because of AA. If she truely wasn't qualified to be there, would she have excelled and graduated with honors? Doesn't that prove that she was qualified regardless of admissions standards? Do you think its possible for a black person to be treated differently because of the color of her skin? For whites to look at her in school and think "I wonder if she's only here because of AA?" I heard some classmates make comments like that at U of I about minority students.

 

I don't support AA and I agree that it is a form of racism. There's still not much basis for your claims.

 

The reason why I posted that one is because Newsweek is the most credible source I found when searching for proof so I apologize for the confusion. There are a lot of political blogs that talk about the issue but again there is no definitive proof. That quote however is from someone close to her and is about Michelle so its not like Im pulling this out of thin air. EVeryone in this thread seems to think Im making this up when it has been a popular topic on news shows and articles online and even people close to her seem to think AA played a part in her education. If its worth anything I can post links to the blogs that talk about it but they arent credible enough to post alone.

 

There's your problem; your most solid basis for your claim that its a FACT that she got into Princeton or Harvard because of AA is a quote from a friend in Newsweek that M. Obama disagrees with.

Edited March 24, 2008 by StrangeSox

[BigSqwert]

The reason why I posted that one is because Newsweek is the most credible source I found when searching for proof so I apologize for the confusion. There are a lot of political blogs that talk about the issue but again there is no definitive proof. That quote however is from someone close to her and is about Michelle so its not like Im pulling this out of thin air. EVeryone in this thread seems to think Im making this up when it has been a popular topic on news shows and articles online and even people close to her seem to think AA played a part in her education. If its worth anything I can post links to the blogs that talk about it but they arent credible enough to post alone.

I read about 15 different political news websites and blogs every day and haven't been reading anything of the sort.

[lostfan]

Whether she got in because of AA or not I highly doubt Mrs. Obama was so egregiously unqualified that she denied a would-be deserving white student from getting in. All you have to do is look at the end result, I mean it's not like she is some hood rat from 63rd street, she graduated with honors from some of the best schools in the country. That to me makes this entire argument irrelevant, and it's why I haven't chimed in until now.

[KipWellsFan]

Since its apparent that nobody will acknowledge the possibility of AA unless it is written in finite I will state why I think she is racist contingent on this being true, which I strongly believe it is. IMO, AA is a form of racism in its own degree and if it is used then it doesnt only affect the beneficiary. That would mean someone more qualified was turned down because of the color of their skin and missed out on going to Princeton. Then she writes about having a chip on her shoulder and that people treated her differently because of the color of her skin and she is making it sound like she is some kind of victim of racism even though the ONLY victim of racism in that case is the student that got denied entry to the university.

 

So in this country that she has never been proud of until recently gave her an advantage with her education and instead of being grateful she acts like she was entitled to something. I also hold her to the same criticism I do Barrack in terms of choosing their church and continuing to support such an open racist.

 

I think you'd be better of reserving the term racist for those who really deserve it. Race itself is a social construct and doesn't really mean anything. I highly doubt that either of the Obamas think that people of this or that race have inherent qualities from birth that make them lesser, or better.

Edited March 24, 2008 by KipWellsFan

[DrunkBomber]

So, in other words, you don't have anything to back up your assertions aside from a quote from a friend? Aside from that quote from her friend, there's no evidence pointing towards her getting in because of AA. If she truely wasn't qualified to be there, would she have excelled and graduated with honors? Doesn't that prove that she was qualified regardless of admissions standards? Do you think its possible for a black person to be treated differently because of the color of her skin? For whites to look at her in school and think "I wonder if she's only here because of AA?" I heard some classmates make comments like that at U of I about minority students.

 

I don't support AA and I agree that it is a form of racism. There's still not much basis for your claims.

There's your problem; your most solid basis for your claim that its a FACT that she got into Princeton or Harvard because of AA is a quote from a friend in Newsweek that M. Obama disagrees with.

Well basically in your estimation there is no way that it can be proven so Im not going to continue to jump through hoops to try to appease you. If there is enough there for her friend to be quoted in a very credible magazine saying that she benefited from affirmative action and she is ok with it than that is enough for me to form my opinion. Affirmative action was also one of the topics that was addressed in Barracks speech on race which leads me to think that theres a reason for him to to have brought that up. Now, if you want to play the car that she might have gotten into college because of AA but there is no way for her to know for sure, then in my opinion, that possibility alone should be enough for her question the things shes says about this country.

 

Also, it doesnt say that she disagrees with that quote, it said a campaign spokesperson disagrees with it.

[DrunkBomber]

I think you'd be better of reserving the term racist for those who really deserve it. Race itself is a social construct and doesn't really mean anything. I highly doubt that either of the Obamas think that people of this or that race have inherent qualities from birth that make them lesser, or better.

Heres the problem with your statement, first of all, what you THINK is better for me in terms of what I form my opinions on means nothing to me and what you HIGHLY DOUBT about the Obamas is your opinion. Who are you to think that your opinion means more than anyone elses. "Race itself is a social construct and doesnt mean really mean anything?" Comments like that might get you a C- in a community college Poly Sci class but they have no merit in a real life conversation. Especially one in which you are trying to discredit someone elses opinion based on your own.

[DrunkBomber]

Whether she got in because of AA or not I highly doubt Mrs. Obama was so egregiously unqualified that she denied a would-be deserving white student from getting in. All you have to do is look at the end result, I mean it's not like she is some hood rat from 63rd street, she graduated with honors from some of the best schools in the country. That to me makes this entire argument irrelevant, and it's why I haven't chimed in until now.

If she did get in because of AA that doesnt have to mean she was unqualified but it does however mean that she got in ahead of someone more qualified and that person didnt get in because of her. Its this train of thought that is the problem with affirmative action.

[BigSqwert]

If she did get in because of AA that doesnt have to mean she was unqualified but it does however mean that she got in ahead of someone more qualified and that person didnt get in because of her. Its this train of thought that is the problem with affirmative action.

But it seems like you are blaming her because of affirmative action. And calling her racist because of it.

[KipWellsFan]

Who are you to think that your opinion means more than anyone elses.

 

I think I'm right and you're wrong and until you're able to explain why Michelle Obama is a racist that's what I'll think. I might let you get away with calling Michelle naive, hypocritical, or bitter but sometimes, whether it's an opinion or not, it's wrong and I can't help but point it out.

[lostfan]

If she did get in because of AA that doesnt have to mean she was unqualified but it does however mean that she got in ahead of someone more qualified and that person didnt get in because of her. Its this train of thought that is the problem with affirmative action.

If she qualifies she deserved to get in, regardless of what race she is and whether she got in because of AA. End of story IMO. I think she decisively showed everyone that too.

 

Here's where the argument fails - yes, if by during the process of meeting a quota you have to admit less qualified minority candidates over more qualified white students in order to comply. That is the problem with affirmative action and I agree with you 100%. But to say that everyone who gets in because of AA squeezes out a more qualified white student means that no AA students are actually qualified which then means that minority students are, by default, less qualified than white students. Obviously this isn't true as demonstrated by Mrs. Obama.

Edited March 24, 2008 by lostfan

[EvilMonkey]

If she qualifies she deserved to get in, regardless of what race she is and whether she got in because of AA. End of story IMO. I think she decisively showed everyone that too.

 

Here's where the argument fails - yes, if by during the process of meeting a quota you have to admit less qualified minority candidates over more qualified white students in order to comply. That is the problem with affirmative action and I agree with you 100%. But to say that everyone who gets in because of AA squeezes out a more qualified white student means that no AA students are actually qualified which then means that minority students are, by default, less qualified than white students. Obviously this isn't true as demonstrated by Mrs. Obama.

Her end results have no bearing on whatever test scores she had prior to entrance. She could have folded like a cheap lawnchair come test time. Her tests could have been middle of the road or bottom of the heap, we don't know. But if they were, then at the time of entrance, she WAS less qualified (by the only testing standard they use).

 

[lostfan]

Her end results have no bearing on whatever test scores she had prior to entrance. She could have folded like a cheap lawnchair come test time. Her tests could have been middle of the road or bottom of the heap, we don't know. But if they were, then at the time of entrance, she WAS less qualified (by the only testing standard they use).

None of this is anything we know, btw, and there isn't any credible way for us to find out either. She could've bombed her tests, she could've aced them, who knows.

[iamshack]

I'm going to take this one step further, lost.

 

Even if she came out and stated that she got into Princeton AND Harvard because of Affirmative Action, how are those facts and the fact that she may not have been proud of her country somehow mutually exclusive?

 

So because she qualified to get into two of our best universities because of a law which favors her race, she is somehow also required to be proud of her country? I don't see the logical connection.

 

I am the beneficiary of all sorts of advantages by living in this country alone, but they certainly don't require me to be proud of the country for all my years living here.

 

There are plenty of things I am proud of currently that are related to my country, such as what my grandfathers did in World Wars I and II, what my mother does every day of her life, how this nation developed out of a melting pot of immigrants, to name a few.

 

But how does that require me to be proud of this nation as a whole? And if I wasn't proud of this nation as a whole, would I be somehow rascist, sexist, a homophobe, or some other ridiculous, all-encompassing generalization?

Edited March 24, 2008 by iamshack

[lostfan]

I'm not actually even convinced she meant to say "I haven't been proud of my country." I know what the exact quote is, but I've seen/read about her giving basically that same speech a few other times, and they all have the same theme. She goes from talking about being disillusioned with American politics to how her husband's campaign makes her feel proud of American politics because of all the energy and passion and everything. Nowhere does she imply "I"ve never really liked America until now" so I'm thinking that one time is the anomaly and she crossed up her words.

[iamshack]

I'm not actually even convinced she meant to say "I haven't been proud of my country." I know what the exact quote is, but I've seen/read about her giving basically that same speech a few other times, and they all have the same theme. She goes from talking about being disillusioned with American politics to how her husband's campaign makes her feel proud of American politics because of all the energy and passion and everything. Nowhere does she imply "I"ve never really liked America until now" so I'm thinking that one time is the anomaly and she crossed up her words.

 

I don't doubt that.

 

What I am arguing though is that even if you take the worse case scenarios- she has not been proud of her country and she got into both schools solely based upon affirmative action- those two things still do not lead me to believe the two are mutually exclusive.

[DrunkBomber]

But it seems like you are blaming her because of affirmative action. And calling her racist because of it.

Thats not what Im trying to do. Im saying that if there is the possibility that she got into school because of AA and then said she hasnt been proud of her country until now then she is racist. Then to write a whole thesis basically calling everyone at the school racist then that reflects poorly on her as well. The system that she slammed is the one that gave her an unfair advantage and for her to dismiss that fact now and act as if she was some sort of victim of discrimination at Princeton when in actuality the person that didnt get into Princeton was the only victim in this case.

[iamshack]

Thats not what Im trying to do. Im saying that if there is the possibility that she got into school because of AA and then said she hasnt been proud of her country until now then she is racist. Then to write a whole thesis basically calling everyone at the school racist then that reflects poorly on her as well. The system that she slammed is the one that gave her an unfair advantage and for her to dismiss that fact now and act as if she was some sort of victim of discrimination at Princeton when in actuality the person that didnt get into Princeton was the only victim in this case.

 

Why, if even she did get into Princeton because of Affirmative Action, and she wasn't proud of her country until now, does that make her a racist?

 

Secondly, just because she may have gotten into Princeton because of Affirmative Action, does that preclude her from commenting on how she felt as a member of the student body there?

 

Thirdly, at what point did she slam Affirmative Action?

 

Fourthly, even if she did claim she was a victim of discrimination at Princeton, how does that make the white person that didn't get into Princeton the "only" victim?

[DrunkBomber]

I think I'm right and you're wrong and until you're able to explain why Michelle Obama is a racist that's what I'll think. I might let you get away with calling Michelle naive, hypocritical, or bitter but sometimes, whether it's an opinion or not, it's wrong and I can't help but point it out.

Well lucky for me what you think about my opinions or anyone elses means absolutely nothing without anything to add to the conversation

[DrunkBomber]

Why, if even she did get into Princeton because of Affirmative Action, and she wasn't proud of her country until now, does that make her a racist?

 

Secondly, just because she may have gotten into Princeton because of Affirmative Action, does that preclude her from commenting on how she felt as a member of the student body there?

 

Thirdly, at what point did she slam Affirmative Action?

 

Fourthly, even if she did claim she was a victim of discrimination at Princeton, how does that make the white person that didn't get into Princeton the "only" victim?

First off, I think her involvement with that church and pastor alone makes her a racist. I think trying to use the race card on a school that let her in because of her race makes her a racist. Also, I never said she slammed affirmative action, I said she slammed the system that she benefited from and I think thats disrespectful to the people who didnt get in that were more qualified than her.

 

[iamshack]

First off, I think her involvement with that church and pastor alone makes her a racist. I think trying to use the race card on a school that let her in because of her race makes her a racist. Also, I never said she slammed affirmative action, I said she slammed the system that she benefited from and I think thats disrespectful to the people who didnt get in that were more qualified than her.

 

If you believe she is a racist because her pastor is, than just say that, don't reach for other things that don't imply anything close to her being racist.

 

Secondly, even I did accept that she "played the race card on a school that let her in because of her race" (which I don't), I really fail to see how that makes her a racist. Can you explain the logical connection you are making? Saying that she felt she was looked-upon differently at Princeton than other students because of her race does not mean she is a racist. It means she felt uncomfortable there. Because she may have been accepted at Princeton due to Affirmative Action she is not allowed to comment on how she felt she was treated there?

 

Thirdly, you said she "slammed the system that she benefitted from." What system is that other than Affirmative Action? Are you implying she slammed the US and that's disrespectful to the students who did not get into Princeton because of the quotas necessary to fulfill because of Affirmative Action? Are you saying that you have never slammed any federal system? You've never complained about taxes or medicare or anything? And if you did, does that make you unpatriotic or homophobic or sexist or racist?