Discussion of racism and Michelle Obama

[DrunkBomber]

If she qualifies she deserved to get in, regardless of what race she is and whether she got in because of AA. End of story IMO. I think she decisively showed everyone that too.

 

Here's where the argument fails - yes, if by during the process of meeting a quota you have to admit less qualified minority candidates over more qualified white students in order to comply. That is the problem with affirmative action and I agree with you 100%. But to say that everyone who gets in because of AA squeezes out a more qualified white student means that no AA students are actually qualified which then means that minority students are, by default, less qualified than white students. Obviously this isn't true as demonstrated by Mrs. Obama.

Thats what quotas are. If they just let everyone in then there would be no need for affirmative action. Affirmative action is set up to reserve spots for minority candidates that werent qualified enough to get in on there own. Its not like there are two entry piles: white and affirmative action. If a minority was qualified based on their accomplishments they would get in on their own. So basically, if she got in because of affirmative action than one person that was more qualified didnt get in. Now Im not disagreeing with you that it worked for her in the sense that she used the opportunity to the fullest and did well there, that obviously isnt whats being debated, its that someone who was more qualified missed out on going to school there.

 

I would also like to point out that I am very aware of how the process works because my brother who is 18 months older than me had to go to Western Illinois even though he had already gotten into U of I and got a letter saying they regretted to inform him that the school had not reached their obligatory racial quotas at the time of his acceptance but he was welcome to apply the following semester.

[DrunkBomber]

If you believe she is a racist because her pastor is, than just say that, don't reach for other things that don't imply anything close to her being racist.

 

Secondly, even I did accept that she "played the race card on a school that let her in because of her race" (which I don't), I really fail to see how that makes her a racist. Can you explain the logical connection you are making? Saying that she felt she was looked-upon differently at Princeton than other students because of her race does not mean she is a racist. It means she felt uncomfortable there. Because she may have been accepted at Princeton due to Affirmative Action she is not allowed to comment on how she felt she was treated there?

 

Thirdly, you said she "slammed the system that she benefitted from." What system is that other than Affirmative Action? Are you implying she slammed the US and that's disrespectful to the students who did not get into Princeton because of the quotas necessary to fulfill because of Affirmative Action? Are you saying that you have never slammed any federal system? You've never complained about taxes or medicare or anything? And if you did, does that make you unpatriotic or homophobic or sexist or racist?

First of all its not just because of her pastor. This guy is one of the most racist people I have heard speak in a long time and the fact that they went there for such a long time and were married by him and that they let him be the godfather to their children. So, if something happened to them they would want him to raise their kids. Thats not just a pastor to someone. I have other thoughts about it but theyre just opinions, the one reason should be enough for now. Im not trying to rate her level of racism, just showing that its there.

[iamshack]

I would also like to point out that I am very aware of how the process works because my brother who is 18 months older than me had to go to Western Illinois even though he had already gotten into U of I and got a letter saying they regretted to inform him that the school had not reached their obligatory racial quotas at the time of his acceptance but he was welcome to apply the following semester.

 

So is this where your bitterness towards her lies?

[iamshack]

First of all its not just because of her pastor. This guy is one of the most racist people I have heard speak in a long time and the fact that they went there for such a long time and were married by him and that they let him be the godfather to their children. So, if something happened to them they would want him to raise their kids. Thats not just a pastor to someone. I have other thoughts about it but theyre just opinions, the one reason should be enough for now. Im not trying to rate her level of racism, just showing that its there.

 

Well that's your opinion. I don't want to get into an argument about whether the fact that they went to that church makes them racist or not because there is already another thread on that.

 

What I am challenging is the other logical leaps that you've made.

[DrunkBomber]

So is this where your bitterness towards her lies?

Yes and no. Ive seen the affect that affirmative action can have on someones life and future from the side of the person that is never really discussed in the matter and IMO the way she carries herself and the things said in her thesis are a slap in the face to the real victims of race in that situation.

[DrunkBomber]

Well that's your opinion. I don't want to get into an argument about whether the fact that they went to that church makes them racist or not because there is already another thread on that.

 

What I am challenging is the other logical leaps that you've made.

I know its my opinion. I have said that time and time again. Im just expressing it and its ridiculous for people to say that their opinions are more justified than mine. That wasnt aimed at you either.

[iamshack]

Yes and no. Ive seen the affect that affirmative action can have on someones life and future from the side of the person that is never really discussed in the matter and IMO the way she carries herself and the things said in her thesis are a slap in the face to the real victims of race in that situation.

 

Affirmative Action has been an extremely controversial subject in this country since it's inception. To claim that the affect this has on qualified white people is "never really discussed" is one of the more inaccurate statements one can make.

[iamshack]

I know its my opinion. I have said that time and time again. Im just expressing it and its ridiculous for people to say that their opinions are more justified than mine. That wasnt aimed at you either.

 

I don't think a whole lot of people are trying to change your opinion. Myself (and others) are challenging your logical process of coming to the conclusions that you have come to.

[DrunkBomber]

Affirmative Action has been an extremely controversial subject in this country since it's inception. To claim that the affect this has on qualified white people is "never really discussed" is one of the more inaccurate statements one can make.

The majority of the time its discussed it is geared towards the minority end of it. Hell, look through this thread. People like lostfan saying that affirmative action worked because she graduated with honors without mentioning the person who didnt get in.

[lostfan]

Thats what quotas are. If they just let everyone in then there would be no need for affirmative action. Affirmative action is set up to reserve spots for minority candidates that werent qualified enough to get in on there own. Its not like there are two entry piles: white and affirmative action. If a minority was qualified based on their accomplishments they would get in on their own. So basically, if she got in because of affirmative action than one person that was more qualified didnt get in. Now Im not disagreeing with you that it worked for her in the sense that she used the opportunity to the fullest and did well there, that obviously isnt whats being debated, its that someone who was more qualified missed out on going to school there.

 

I would also like to point out that I am very aware of how the process works because my brother who is 18 months older than me had to go to Western Illinois even though he had already gotten into U of I and got a letter saying they regretted to inform him that the school had not reached their obligatory racial quotas at the time of his acceptance but he was welcome to apply the following semester.

No, that's not entirely true... does the system allow that to happen? Yes. Is that necessarily the goal of the program? No. It's more of an unintended consequence.

 

Ok let's say we have to employ 10 guys, but affirmative action laws say we need to employ at least 2 minority workers. If we can find 2 workers that are perfectly qualified on their own accord, then no harm no foul, nobody's being disqualified from anything. Hell we can even hire 3, 4, it doesn't matter. The problem is when you can't, or when you start running out. Then you get into a situation where you're actually competing with other people who need to fill that quota too and we might even end up having to pay them more money to convince them to work for us. Then not only are we employing substandard candidates, we're giving them preferential treatment. That's how affirmative action, in its current form, creates more problems than it solves. It's not really intended to be racist but it can actually cause the injustices it's supposed to fix.

[lostfan]

The majority of the time its discussed it is geared towards the minority end of it. Hell, look through this thread. People like lostfan saying that affirmative action worked because she graduated with honors without mentioning the person who didnt get in.

Yeah I have to disagree with that, actually the only time I ever hear anything about affirmative action is when people complain about how it doesn't work, and rightfully so. See the post I just made above.

 

Besides, if we don't KNOW that Michelle Obama pushed somebody out of getting in the school (meaning she otherwise wouldn't have qualified on her own merit, also something else we wouldn't know) why would we speculate about the person who didn't get in?

[iamshack]

The majority of the time its discussed it is geared towards the minority end of it. Hell, look through this thread. People like lostfan saying that affirmative action worked because she graduated with honors without mentioning the person who didnt get in.

 

I agree with you that it is a shame that some white students who might have otherwise been accepted to a university were not because of artificial quotas instituted into the application process. And I don't necessarily agree that Affirmative Action is the best solution to the problem, if it is a solution at all. However, you seem to be discounting a whole host of societal advantages that work in the favor of whites, beginning at birth. I just think some people really hesitate to sympathize with the plight of a people who've been at the top of the totem pole throughout this nation's history.

[Balta1701]

I agree with you that it is a shame that some white students who might have otherwise been accepted to a university were not because of artificial quotas instituted into the application process. And I don't necessarily agree that Affirmative Action is the best solution to the problem, if it is a solution at all. However, you seem to be discounting a whole host of societal advantages that work in the favor of whites, beginning at birth. I just think some people really hesitate to sympathize with the plight of a people who've been at the top of the totem pole throughout this nation's history.

And the beauty of this whole discussion, to my eyes, is that its exactly the discussion that Barack wanted to initiate with his speech last week, and I've been waiting for it to get to this point before pointing it out.

 

If you read his speech, he pointed out that yes, people like Rev. Wright are angry. But at some level, they certainly have a right to be angry. This country has been inhabited by people from Europe for almost 400 years now, and we've actually treated people who don't look like white people as 2nd or 3rd or 3/5 class citizens for all except the last 30-40 years or so in the actual law of the country, and even after that there are built in disadvantages.

 

But on the other hand, there are people who on the other side have legit grievances also. Is it appropriate that qualified people are left out of jobs or universities because of race? No. But is it appropriate that people can't get the appropriate qualifications they need to get those jobs or admissions because they were unfortunate enough to be born to the wrong family or in the wrong socio-economic status? Similarly no.

 

THere isn't an easy solution to this except to fix the system itself. Affirmative action is a band aid. Compared to doing nothing, it's probably a good thing. But it is certain to have repercussions, and those are worth acknowledging as real. Both sides have grievances, but as long as they spend their time blaming each other, being angry at each other, swearing at each other, and using those lines to divide us, we'll never be able to fix the actual problems of people being unable to get ahead in this country.

[DrunkBomber]

I don't think a whole lot of people are trying to change your opinion. Myself (and others) are challenging your logical process of coming to the conclusions that you have come to.

Well to be perfectly honest I dont think anybody really has shown anything close to justifying challenging my logic or how I draw my conclusions. Half of the people chiming in have no idea what Im even talking about but feel the need to try and discredit me.

 

race is a social construct and really doesnt mean anything

 

for example, this was thrown at me and the author of this gem managed to throw in that his opinions are right and my opinions are wrong.

 

I tried to quote the thesis and I had someone basically accuse me of lying because the thesis wasnt available and then when I post the link to the thesis nobody even acknowledges it.

 

Ive had people basically say Im calling every black person racist.

 

Just because people are scared to talk about racism towards white people because of fear they will be called a racist doesnt mean that it isnt an issue that should be discussed. This isnt the 60s and when a candidate for president tries to end the stalemate that exists by promoting equality but has what I consider questionable tactics it makes me wonder about his ability to run a country.

[DrunkBomber]

I agree with you that it is a shame that some white students who might have otherwise been accepted to a university were not because of artificial quotas instituted into the application process. And I don't necessarily agree that Affirmative Action is the best solution to the problem, if it is a solution at all. However, you seem to be discounting a whole host of societal advantages that work in the favor of whites, beginning at birth. I just think some people really hesitate to sympathize with the plight of a people who've been at the top of the totem pole throughout this nation's history.

This statement justified everything I said. Societal advantages? Says who? Top of the totem pole? This is exactly what Im talking about. The sense of entitlement because people think things are in favor for whites. In this day and age that statement is absolute garbage. So since Im white I havent worked for everything I have? Ive never been discriminated against? Why should I sympathize with with anyone because Im white and apparently I have advantages in my favor since birth. That is such a racist statement. Its hypocritical and is the problem with this country and that speech.

[DrunkBomber]

And the beauty of this whole discussion, to my eyes, is that its exactly the discussion that Barack wanted to initiate with his speech last week, and I've been waiting for it to get to this point before pointing it out.

 

If you read his speech, he pointed out that yes, people like Rev. Wright are angry. But at some level, they certainly have a right to be angry. This country has been inhabited by people from Europe for almost 400 years now, and we've actually treated people who don't look like white people as 2nd or 3rd or 3/5 class citizens for all except the last 30-40 years or so in the actual law of the country, and even after that there are built in disadvantages.

 

But on the other hand, there are people who on the other side have legit grievances also. Is it appropriate that qualified people are left out of jobs or universities because of race? No. But is it appropriate that people can't get the appropriate qualifications they need to get those jobs or admissions because they were unfortunate enough to be born to the wrong family or in the wrong socio-economic status? Similarly no.

 

THere isn't an easy solution to this except to fix the system itself. Affirmative action is a band aid. Compared to doing nothing, it's probably a good thing. But it is certain to have repercussions, and those are worth acknowledging as real. Both sides have grievances, but as long as they spend their time blaming each other, being angry at each other, swearing at each other, and using those lines to divide us, we'll never be able to fix the actual problems of people being unable to get ahead in this country.

I actually agree with you 100% in terms of this being Barracks purpose for the speech. Thats the point Ive been trying to make about the purpose of his speech in terms of moving past the stalemate.

[iamshack]

I'm having a really difficult time understanding how the last two posts in this thread came from the same person...

[DrunkBomber]

I'm having a really difficult time understanding how the last two posts in this thread came from the same person...

I agree with Balta about the purpose of Obamas speech being to try to discuss resentments people have about others. However your last post is absolutely to a tee what I am talking about in terms of the problem. That whole post was blatant racism but you seem to think its ok because its geared towards white people. When people say things like that it sets this conversation back decades. We will never be able to move on and get past all the resentment when people continue to say in this day and age that resentment towards white is justified because they were born at the top of a totem pole. By law, straight white males under 55 are the only group of people that arent protected by law from discrimination which is bulls***

[NorthSideSox72]

I agree with Balta about the purpose of Obamas speech being to try to discuss resentments people have about others. However your last post is absolutely to a tee what I am talking about in terms of the problem. That whole post was blatant racism but you seem to think its ok because its geared towards white people. When people say things like that it sets this conversation back decades. We will never be able to move on and get past all the resentment when people continue to say in this day and age that resentment towards white is justified because they were born at the top of a totem pole. By law, straight white males under 55 are the only group of people that arent protected by law from discrimination which is bulls***

Regarding societal advantages, I think the reason the discussion fails is because you keep accusing people of racism for even insinuating its possible. Kind of hard to have a dialogue when you throw around insults like that.

 

And I think if you read some of the discussions in this forum in recent weeks about those societal advantages, the tone was really well established in regard to the context. What I and others have said is, its true that someone of a minority race has an equal chance of success 99% of the time, IF they are given the same opportunities in education, health and safety. But what is also undeniably true is that those same minorities have overwhelmingly larger numbers in situations where the schools and neighborhoods are awful, and they aren't given those same opportunities. Further, there's not much doubt that the root of those situations (though not all blame) falls to previous institutionalized racism. So yes, we have progressed greatly as a society - but there are still major societal imbalances to overcome. Am I a racist for saying that?

 

And that last sentence in your post is just plain wrong. Show me a law that says anything remotely like that.

 

[iamshack]

I agree with Balta about the purpose of Obamas speech being to try to discuss resentments people have about others. However your last post is absolutely to a tee what I am talking about in terms of the problem. That whole post was blatant racism but you seem to think its ok because its geared towards white people. When people say things like that it sets this conversation back decades. We will never be able to move on and get past all the resentment when people continue to say in this day and age that resentment towards white is justified because they were born at the top of a totem pole. By law, straight white males under 55 are the only group of people that arent protected by law from discrimination which is bulls***

 

Well, I am not in the business of calling other people racists, and I certainly will refrain from doing so in this case.

 

But I have to question if you really understand the meaning of the term racist as you use it and how serious an accusation that is to make...

 

As I failed to understand your logic in describing how Michelle Obama must be racist because of what she said in her senior thesis or in what she said about not being proud of America, I once again fail to understand how pointing out that whites have significant societal advantages over minority groups in this country makes me racist.

 

For the sake of argument, this is the definition of "racist" according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

 

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

 

If you review my post from above that you are commenting on, you'll notice that not once did I claim white people enjoy advantages in this country because of any human trait or capacity or any racial differences that exist between the races in this country. Neither did I make any judgments based upon racial prejudice or discrimination.

 

On the contrary, I mentioned socioeconomic advantages that whites have that produce an inherently superior opportunity to "succeed" in this country (at least according to the commonly accepted notion of what "success" in America is). Balta elaborated upon those advantages in his post, and I believe they would be fairly impossible to dispute, in general.

 

So while it may be unfortunate that Affirmative Action is an end-result attempt at evening the score a bit, it is a much less daunting and more immediate method of giving minorities a chance to overcome the aforementioned socioeconomic disadvantages they face.

 

So how exactly does acknowledging that make me racist, or make it a racist point of view?

[DrunkBomber]

Well, I am not in the business of calling other people racists, and I certainly will refrain from doing so in this case.

 

But I have to question if you really understand the meaning of the term racist as you use it and how serious an accusation that is to make...

 

As I failed to understand your logic in describing how Michelle Obama must be racist because of what she said in her senior thesis or in what she said about not being proud of America, I once again fail to understand how pointing out that whites have significant societal advantages over minority groups in this country makes me racist.

 

For the sake of argument, this is the definition of "racist" according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

 

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

 

If you review my post from above that you are commenting on, you'll notice that not once did I claim white people enjoy advantages in this country because of any human trait or capacity or any racial differences that exist between the races in this country. Neither did I make any judgments based upon racial prejudice or discrimination.

 

On the contrary, I mentioned socioeconomic advantages that whites have that produce an inherently superior opportunity to "succeed" in this country (at least according to the commonly accepted notion of what "success" in America is). Balta elaborated upon those advantages in his post, and I believe they would be fairly impossible to dispute, in general.

 

So while it may be unfortunate that Affirmative Action is an end-result attempt at evening the score a bit, it is a much less daunting and more immediate method of giving minorities a chance to overcome the aforementioned socioeconomic disadvantages they face.

 

So how exactly does acknowledging that make me racist, or make it a racist point of view?

Affirmative action isnt evening a score. Who are they evening the score with? White people? I have zero control of what ever score needs to be settled. Since were using definitions and you say that you say that you didnt use any prejudice lets think about what it means. Pre judging someone. Like judging a white person as someone born on the top of the totem pole that has everything handed to them. That is prejudice and thats the problem. If people want to get rid of the resentment blacks and whites have with each other both sides need make sacrifices to look past the issues. That prejudice is a form of racism and is a stereotype. Stuff like school funding shouldnt have anything to do with this conversation because it isnt something only black people have to face. Its a matter of economics. If people that are in poor areas arent happy with what the hand they are dealt then maybe they should try to overcome it instead of blaming it on others. There are poor white people in those neighborhoods too but there are no white people moving ahead in line to get in college because they live there and that isnt fair. To be honest I would think a minority would find affirmative action offensive because its basically saying they need a head start. Everyday there are people that work their way out of poverty, white and black, instead of blaming others. With the strides this country has made in terms of equality and race relations making it sound like white people have all these doors open to them that minorites dont is ridiculous. In this day and age it is the exact opposite..

[YASNY]

Whether or not Michelle Obama can be slam dunk proven to be a racist is not the point. Jeremiah Wright is on the record as saying some very hateful things with racial overtones to them. That is a fact. The Obamas were members of his church. That's an established fact. Wright performed the Obamas' marriage ceremony. That's a fact. Wright performed the Obama children's bartismal ceremonies. That's a fact. He was also named godfather to those children. Another fact. Michelle Obama recently stated that for the first time in her adult life she was proud of her country. Again, fact. She stated so after probably getting into Princeton due to AA, based on the posted Newsweek story. That is a logical conclusion at this point, but has not been established as hard fact.

 

Based on all of the above, there is plenty there to raise a red flag to the possibly that this lady may very well harbor some racist pov's and by logical extension, her husband as well. There is too much smoke for there not to be some fire, imho, and I do not want this couple in the White House.

 

Of course, even with all of the above, they aren't being called racist in every venue of the national media. They'd have to do something like jokingly calling someone a nappy headed ho for that to happen. One incident like that will get you labeled a racist. An entire adult lifetime of actions affiliated with a proven racist doesn't 'prove' anything.

[knightni]

Like there's never been a racist in the White House before.

[YASNY]

Like there's never been a racist in the White House before.

 

So you think it's fine to have a racist in the White house?

[iamshack]

Whether or not Michelle Obama can be slam dunk proven to be a racist is not the point. Jeremiah Wright is on the record as saying some very hateful things with racial overtones to them. That is a fact. The Obamas were members of his church. That's an established fact. Wright performed the Obamas' marriage ceremony. That's a fact. Wright performed the Obama children's bartismal ceremonies. That's a fact. He was also named godfather to those children. Another fact. Michelle Obama recently stated that for the first time in her adult life she was proud of her country. Again, fact. She stated so after probably getting into Princeton due to AA, based on the posted Newsweek story. That is a logical conclusion at this point, but has not been established as hard fact.

 

Based on all of the above, there is plenty there to raise a red flag to the possibly that this lady may very well harbor some racist pov's and by logical extension, her husband as well. There is too much smoke for there not to be some fire, imho, and I do not want this couple in the White House.

 

Of course, even with all of the above, they aren't being called racist in every venue of the national media. They'd have to do something like jokingly calling someone a nappy headed ho for that to happen. One incident like that will get you labeled a racist. An entire adult lifetime of actions affiliated with a proven racist doesn't 'prove' anything.

 

Well, I, for one, don't understand alot of things that people do for religion, so I can't speak for them in that regard. I can see how their affiliation with that church could be interpreted, and so I won't jump into that argument. And we do have a 25 page thread on that, so I'll save that discussion for that thread.

 

But as for the Affirmative Action issue, her senior thesis, her comment about being proud of her country, I ask you to respond to this post I made a few hours ago and connect the dots for me, because I'm just not able to make or even see the logical leap some of you are making in suggesting she is racist.

 

Why, if even she did get into Princeton because of Affirmative Action, and she wasn't proud of her country until now, does that make her a racist?

 

Secondly, just because she may have gotten into Princeton because of Affirmative Action, does that preclude her from commenting on how she felt as a member of the student body there?

 

Thirdly, at what point did she slam Affirmative Action?

 

Fourthly, even if she did claim she was a victim of discrimination at Princeton, how does that make the white person that didn't get into Princeton the "only" victim?

Edited March 25, 2008 by iamshack