Discussion of racism and Michelle Obama

[knightni]

So you think it's fine to have a racist in the White house?

I'm saying that there have been racists there before and somehow the country survived.

 

I'm not promoting it by any means. I'm just saying that for all we know, Clinton and McCain are racist as well. There's more secret racism today than there used to be. Years ago, people were more bold and overt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[YASNY]

Well, I, for one, don't understand alot of things that people do for religion, so I can't speak for them in that regard. I can see how their affiliation with that church could be interpreted, and so I won't jump into that argument. And we do have a 25 page thread on that, so I'll save that discussion for that thread.

 

But as for the Affirmative Action issue, her senior thesis, her comment about being proud of her country, I ask you to respond to this post I made a few hours ago and connect the dots for me, because I'm just not able to make or even see the logical leap some of you are making in suggesting she is racist.

 

That single issue does not connect the dots to make her a racist. The whole body of my post that you quoted does indicate that there is a strong possibility that there is some racist sentiments. Clear enough?

[YASNY]

I'm saying that there have been racists there before and somehow the country survived.

 

I'm not promoting it by any means. I'm just saying that for all we know, Clinton and McCain are racist as well. There's more secret racism today than there used to be. Years ago, people were more bold and overt.

 

Sure, there is that possibility. As opposed to the probabilty of racism in the Obama household.

[knightni]

Unfortunately, people's human nature is to see differences and pass judgements on those differences.

 

So, if you got a scholarship from your church to go to college and they turned out to be anti-homosexuals. Would you, in turn, be considered homophobic by-proxy because you accepted said scholarship?

[iamshack]

That single issue does not connect the dots to make her a racist. The whole body of my post that you quoted does indicate that there is a strong possibility that there is some racist sentiments. Clear enough?

 

No, it is not clear enough for me.

 

For one moment, take the participation in the church out of the equation.

 

Now explain to me, using the other things you use in your post, that there is a strong possibility that there is some racist sentiments.

 

I don't see the connection between not being proud of your country and being a racist.

 

I also don't see why simply because one was a benefactor of a system put in place by our federal government that they therefore must be proud of this country.

 

I also don't see why being a benefactor of such a system therefore precludes one from discussing how one felt at an institution, even if the mere fact that that person was at that institution at all may have been because they were a benefactor of the aforementioned system.

 

Please, someone, explain this to me.

[YASNY]

No, it is not clear enough for me.

 

For one moment, take the participation in the church out of the equation.

 

Now explain to me, using the other things you use in your post, that there is a strong possibility that there is some racist sentiments.

 

I don't see the connection between not being proud of your country and being a racist.

 

I also don't see why simply because one was a benefactor of a system put in place by our federal government that they therefore must be proud of this country.

 

I also don't see why being a benefactor of such a system therefore precludes one from discussing how one felt at an institution, even if the mere fact that that person was at that institution at all may have been because they were a benefactor of the aforementioned system.

 

Please, someone, explain this to me.

 

I'm not taking the church participation out of the equation because that IS part of the equation. That's a big part of the equation. You keep harping on the one minor point and ask how that makes her a racist. It's a small part of the equation, one that I would be more willing to disregard than the church issue. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this relatively minor issue. It's whole body of the equation that makes me jadedly look at the what comes out on the other side of the equal sign.

[Chet Lemon]

Sure, there is that possibility. As opposed to the probabilty of racism in the Obama household.

 

obama should go on letterman and say via satellite: "i'm not a racist - that is what's so insane about this."

 

[KipWellsFan]

He was also named godfather to those children. Another fact.

 

I don't think that's actually a fact. At least I couldn't find anything in a basic google search.

 

I refuse to believe that if Michelle or Barack were to come up to me to shake my hand, they'd think less or more of me because of my skin color.

[iamshack]

I'm not taking the church participation out of the equation because that IS part of the equation. That's a big part of the equation. You keep harping on the one minor point and ask how that makes her a racist. It's a small part of the equation, one that I would be more willing to disregard than the church issue. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this relatively minor issue. It's whole body of the equation that makes me jadedly look at the what comes out on the other side of the equal sign.

 

If that's the case, then this entire thread is duplicative of the "Obama's Pastor" thread and therefore, should be merged.

 

If you or DrunkBomber cannot point out to me how the senior thesis, her possible benefactor status of Affirmative Action, and her comments about not being proud of her country have anything to do with her being racist, than those issues have no business even being part of the equation.

 

As I said earlier, I will not criticize anyone for being leery of the Obama's being part of that church. It doesn't particularly bother me, because people do all sorts of weird s*** when it comes to religion, but I can understand how some people would be somewhat concerned about it. I guess I agree with NSS- it doesn't change my opinion, and most of those making the biggest fuss about it probably weren't going to vote for Obama anyways.

[iamshack]

Affirmative action isnt evening a score. Who are they evening the score with? White people? I have zero control of what ever score needs to be settled. Since were using definitions and you say that you say that you didnt use any prejudice lets think about what it means. Pre judging someone. Like judging a white person as someone born on the top of the totem pole that has everything handed to them. That is prejudice and thats the problem. If people want to get rid of the resentment blacks and whites have with each other both sides need make sacrifices to look past the issues. That prejudice is a form of racism and is a stereotype. Stuff like school funding shouldnt have anything to do with this conversation because it isnt something only black people have to face. Its a matter of economics. If people that are in poor areas arent happy with what the hand they are dealt then maybe they should try to overcome it instead of blaming it on others. There are poor white people in those neighborhoods too but there are no white people moving ahead in line to get in college because they live there and that isnt fair. To be honest I would think a minority would find affirmative action offensive because its basically saying they need a head start. Everyday there are people that work their way out of poverty, white and black, instead of blaming others. With the strides this country has made in terms of equality and race relations making it sound like white people have all these doors open to them that minorites dont is ridiculous. In this day and age it is the exact opposite..

 

Affirmative Action is absolutely an attempt to artificially "even the score." And yes, they are trying to even the score in regards to the socioeconomic advantages white people (or other people with socioeconomic advantages) have in terms of opportunity.

 

Yes, the fact that you have little or no control over what situation you were placed in is a key argument against Affirmative Action.

 

I don't know that there are many people that suggest Affirmative Action is the ideal situation, and many people think we would be better without it, but it is a way to artificially speed up the process a bit.

 

And don't think I am some raging proponent of the system either. I went to law school. The application process is fairly cutthroat. Don't think for a minute that I wasn't denied admission to law school in lieu of less-qualified candidates because of racial quotas and diversity. But it is what it is and I accept that. If it's a price I have to pay for having many of the other advantages in life that I have, than so be it.

Edited March 25, 2008 by iamshack

[YASNY]

If that's the case, then this entire thread is duplicative of the "Obama's Pastor" thread and therefore, should be merged.

 

If you or DrunkBomber cannot point out to me how the senior thesis, her possible benefactor status of Affirmative Action, and her comments about not being proud of her country have anything to do with her being racist, than those issues have no business even being part of the equation.

 

As I said earlier, I will not criticize anyone for being leery of the Obama's being part of that church. It doesn't particularly bother me, because people do all sorts of weird s*** when it comes to religion, but I can understand how some people would be somewhat concerned about it. I guess I agree with NSS- it doesn't change my opinion, and most of those making the biggest fuss about it probably weren't going to vote for Obama anyways.

 

I have to go to work, but I'll say this real quick. At one point in this campaign season, Obama was a viable option. No longer the case, however.

[iamshack]

I have to go to work, but I'll say this real quick. At one point in this campaign season, Obama was a viable option. No longer the case, however.

 

Well, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on anything, so that's entirely a personal decision of your own.

 

I'm just looking for some logic.

[knightni]

Everyone has their right to jump to their own conclusions.

[YASNY]

Well, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on anything, so that's entirely a personal decision of your own.

 

I'm just looking for some logic.

 

If you are going to stoop to the point of implying that I'm not using logic, then okay. You win. I quit. End of discussion.

[iamshack]

If you are going to stoop to the point of implying that I'm not using logic, then okay. You win. I quit. End of discussion.

 

I've asked both you and DrunkBomber now several times to explain to me how Michelle Obama's senior thesis, her possibly being the benefactor of Affirmative Action, and her not being proud of her country make her a racist. Neither of you have yet to attempt to logically claim how you've come to that conclusion.

 

Rather, you're basing it entirely on the Obama's involvement in their church and with their Pastor, which I have not challenged. But if that's the case, this entire thread is nonsense.

 

Neither of you have addressed that point, or my plea for a logical explanation.

 

So it isn't me who is "stooping" to anything. It's you and DrunkBomber who are "stooping" to accusing Michelle Obama of being a racist because of the aforementioned reasons in this thread without logically explaining how that is the case.

[YASNY]

I've asked both you and DrunkBomber now several times to explain to me how Michelle Obama's senior thesis, her possibly being the benefactor of Affirmative Action, and her not being proud of her country make her a racist. Neither of you have yet to attempt to logically claim how you've come to that conclusion.

 

Rather, you're basing it entirely on the Obama's involvement in their church and with their Pastor, which I have not challenged. But if that's the case, this entire thread is nonsense.

 

Neither of you have addressed that point, or my plea for a logical explanation.

 

So it isn't me who is "stooping" to anything. It's you and DrunkBomber who are "stooping" to accusing Michelle Obama of being a racist because of the aforementioned reasons in this thread without logically explaining how that is the case.

 

One last time. I have said that in my opinion the thesis, AA thing is a MINOR issue and not the basis to the crux of my opinion. I have also said that I'd be willing to drop that part of the argument because it is such a minor issue. However, you seem to have your claws in this issue because nobody will elaborate on the point. OK dude! I don't care. I concede that damn point to you.

 

Now, as for your remark about this should be an extension of whatever thread you mentioned and not a separate thread, it wasn't a seprate thread when it started. It was part of one of the Democrat threads ... Dems only or Dem candidates, I don't recall. However, if you go to my first post in this thread, you'll where I started and have not swayed from that point. Every post I've made on this topic has been supporting the fact that if McCain would have had the history Obama had, he'd be fileted and grilled by now ... and/or parrying off the ridiculous posts that attempt to pick and choose minor issues and won't accept the overall crux of my point.

 

I still insist that the overall body of evidence raises many red flags as to Obama's stance on race. This nitpicking on your part is no longer necessary and I gladly yeild and concede the relatively, in comparison, minor point to you.

 

I give. You win! Now go pat yourself on the back and feel good about winning the point. Congrats.

[iamshack]

One last time. I have said that in my opinion the thesis, AA thing is a MINOR issue and not the basis to the crux of my opinion. I have also said that I'd be willing to drop that part of the argument because it is such a minor issue. However, you seem to have your claws in this issue because nobody will elaborate on the point. OK dude! I don't care. I concede that damn point to you.

 

Now, as for your remark about this should be an extension of whatever thread you mentioned and not a separate thread, it wasn't a seprate thread when it started. It was part of one of the Democrat threads ... Dems only or Dem candidates, I don't recall. However, if you go to my first post in this thread, you'll where I started and have not swayed from that point. Every post I've made on this topic has been supporting the fact that if McCain would have had the history Obama had, he'd be fileted and grilled by now ... and/or parrying off the ridiculous posts that attempt to pick and choose minor issues and won't accept the overall crux of my point.

 

I still insist that the overall body of evidence raises many red flags as to Obama's stance on race. This nitpicking on your part is no longer necessary and I gladly yeild and concede the relatively, in comparison, minor point to you.

 

I give. You win! Now go pat yourself on the back and feel good about winning the point. Congrats.

 

Well, my apologies then, YASNY. I guess it is a minor point to you. I'm not sure if that is the case with DrunkBomber.

 

But to me, it's not a minor point to accuse people of racism because they are outspoken about race relations or their country.

[YASNY]

Well, my apologies then, YASNY. I guess it is a minor point to you. I'm not sure if that is the case with DrunkBomber.

 

But to me, it's not a minor point to accuse people of racism because they are outspoken about race relations or their country.

 

Apologies accepted. And to me, it's not a minor point when someone who is trying to become POTUS joins an organization (church or otherwise) to where the leader of said organization spews anti_American and racially tinged hatred.

[chiguy79]

I hadn't really paid attention to Michelle Obama at all but in doing some quick research she also went to one of the first "magnet" schools in Chicago. Which also practice a form of AA via bussing, etc. There is a serious issue when working class families need to move out of the city or send their kids to $25,000/yr private school because the public school across the street bus in 50% of their students.

 

I don't think that taking advantage of AA makes anyone a racist, I would do the same, i have gone to school and worked with people who have benefitted from AA, I also know that there were more qualified candidates who didn't get interviews/offers due to AA and their life may be worse off. The issue is that the american ideal of capitalism and controlling your own destiny through hard work is compromised by AA.

 

I don't think Obama or his wife are racist though and they do have the benefit of seeing both sides of the picture.

 

Obama's biggest weakness is that he is already a career politician and on his first day as senator he was planning his next move instead of trying to improve the mess that is illinois politics/government/finances, and I think that is a disservice to the state. I would like to elect a non-career politician but unfortunately none are still in the running.

 

I do know of hardworking tradesmen who work at the UofC that Michelle Obama pushed very hard to have nearly all the contractors/employees at the University be minorities. Don't ask me to source that because I can't but I trust the source.

Edited March 25, 2008 by chiguy79

[lostfan]

There is a serious issue when working class families need to move out of the city or send their kids to $25,000/yr private school because the public school across the stree bus in 50% of their students.

See, it's not that simple. Schools in minority neighborhoods tend to suck. Bad.

[chiguy79]

I understand it isn't that simple but with bussing all the schools suck, which is worse than some schools sucking. And the funding call comes from CPS so that probably pretty balanced (although I am no expert)

 

Trust me, I believe it is in everyone's interest to have good schools everywhere but the realities of life and economics dictate that parents are going to send their kid to the best schools and will move in order to accomodate that. That being said it is a bit unfair that in areas with average home price of $500,000+ (ie real estate taxes of $10,000/year) the schools are not good because of the students getting bussed in from bad areas for the sake of "diversity". Not to mention the issues with traffic and environmental impact of the bussing that this causes.

 

I am not even opposed to bussing per se but the extent of it is pretty crazy (I don't even have kids so this isn't a personal thing), but I also believe that if the City of Chicago is going to prosper it needs to encourage parents/families (not just super wealthy ones) to stay in the city and kids should be able to go to a neighborhood school, priority should go first to kids within the area first then bussing can make up the balance.

 

Anyway I will let everyone get back to the election topics...

Edited March 25, 2008 by chiguy79

[DrunkBomber]

I don't think that's actually a fact. At least I couldn't find anything in a basic google search.

 

I refuse to believe that if Michelle or Barack were to come up to me to shake my hand, they'd think less or more of me because of my skin color.

Well again you bring so much to the discussion. Since you cant find it in a google search. Why not ask another supporter if its true..?

[DrunkBomber]

No, that's not entirely true... does the system allow that to happen? Yes. Is that necessarily the goal of the program? No. It's more of an unintended consequence.

 

Ok let's say we have to employ 10 guys, but affirmative action laws say we need to employ at least 2 minority workers. If we can find 2 workers that are perfectly qualified on their own accord, then no harm no foul, nobody's being disqualified from anything. Hell we can even hire 3, 4, it doesn't matter. The problem is when you can't, or when you start running out. Then you get into a situation where you're actually competing with other people who need to fill that quota too and we might even end up having to pay them more money to convince them to work for us. Then not only are we employing substandard candidates, we're giving them preferential treatment. That's how affirmative action, in its current form, creates more problems than it solves. It's not really intended to be racist but it can actually cause the injustices it's supposed to fix.

Yes that is entirely true. Unless you have been introduced to it first hand then quit pretending to be an expert. The point of it is to hold spots for MINORITIES that arent qualified because if they were qualified they wouldnt need the spot reserved.

[lostfan]

Unless you have been introduced to it first hand then quit pretending to be an expert.

It's really ironic that you say this to me while you do the same thing.

 

I'm done with this. Knock yourself out.

[DrunkBomber]

Affirmative Action is absolutely an attempt to artificially "even the score." And yes, they are trying to even the score in regards to the socioeconomic advantages white people (or other people with socioeconomic advantages) have in terms of opportunity.

 

Yes, the fact that you have little or no control over what situation you were placed in is a key argument against Affirmative Action.

 

I don't know that there are many people that suggest Affirmative Action is the ideal situation, and many people think we would be better without it, but it is a way to artificially speed up the process a bit.

 

And don't think I am some raging proponent of the system either. I went to law school. The application process is fairly cutthroat. Don't think for a minute that I wasn't denied admission to law school in lieu of less-qualified candidates because of racial quotas and diversity. But it is what it is and I accept that. If it's a price I have to pay for having many of the other advantages in life that I have, than so be it.

Can you tell me what these advantages white people have are because I would love to hear from you what these apparent advantages are? What in my life has been handed to me because Im white? The fact that you try to throw in that you went to law school is a joke and is so ridiculous to add because you think it gives you some sort of credibility. Your generalizations are prejudice and are complete stereotypes but you, as many others, think its ok to use them because they are geared towards white people. In this day and age blacks have more of an opportunity than whites because of things like affirmative action. It is such a cop out joke to try and use that excuse anymore like this was 50 years ago. If people cant be responsible for their own actions than Im not gonna take any heat for it because Im white. All the bulls*** stereotypes you claim are exclusive to blacks applied to how I grew up but I moved passed it without my palms up waiting for some liberal to drop me a dollar on their way to vote for Obama and think that theyve done their part. I grew up in poverty, got the grades to get into college, worked my way through the corporate ladder on my own. Not because Im white but because I have enough respect for myself to try and make something of my life and for someone to say that since Im white there were more doors open to me is racist and if this is coming from a white person, who maybe had more advantages than others so their view is jaded, than theres a book you need to read by Harriet Beecher Stowe.