The joke that is KW and the White Sox

[Steve9347]

Summarizing the many gaffes of the Chicago White Sox in just one offseason.

 

 

Juan Uribe

To no one's surprise, less than a week after placing Juan Uribe on waivers, the White Sox seem to now be planning to start him at second base.

 

Certainly, he was placed on waivers because everyone assumed the team was finally ready to move on from his horrible .234 AVG/.284 OBP last season. Luckily, for Kenny Williams and the franchise, some team actually wanted Uribe enough to claim him AND the 4.5 million salary that comes along with him.

 

All of Soxdom cheers as Juan Uribe, the most unwatchable hitter in the Major Leagues, he of the expanding ass, is gone! Hallelujah! Party in the streets!

 

So what does KW do? He PULLS URIBE BACK, thinking he can squeeze a low A-ball reliever out of what I presume to be the Baltimore Orioles (but possibly SF/LAD). Guess what? Claiming team tells him to screw off, and now we're stuck with Uribe.

 

OK, that's fine, whatever, it's not my money. We've got Sexy 'Lexi looking good, and Richar's only out a few weeks (news that broke the same day Uribe was placed on waivers, surely making this somewhat difficult for Kenny, but not really). I mean, seriously, if you're worried about that, let Juan go and sign Marcus Giles for something like 700k and save yourself a lot of money while getting roughly the same production. ANYWAY, We've got Alexei Ramirez, we've got Richar coming back, it just made sense to be rid of Uribe... finally and forever.

 

Now, we're stuck with him, and of course he's going to start at 2B on Opening Day. Heaven forbid we not have to watch that fool hack at balls in the dirt for one more season. This is quite possibly the oddest turnaround for a player I've ever seen, to go from waived for the purposes of being rid of him to starting for the same team that waived him less than two weeks later.

 

 

Josh Fields

As if one goofup wasn't enough, we now have the Great 3B Question of 2008. For any other franchise (save maybe the almost as moronic Tampa Bay Rays), this one is simple. Move Crede, regardless of return, and continue the development of the only prospect worth a s*** in your organization. Josh Fields burst onto the scene in 2007, through 100 games blasting 23 homers and 67 RBI (albeit with only a .308 OBP). A work in progress, but the progress is obviously ready to continue in the Majors.

 

The fact that Josh Fields, after the production he had last year, is being sent down is an utter catastrophe. Another case of Kenny overvaluing what he has in Joe Crede (see Juan Uribe and pulling him back). Seriously, Joe Crede is what he is... a Scott Boras client, coming off major back surgery in the final year of his contract who had one of the worst Spring Trainings in baseball. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO GET FOR HIM? Yes, 2005 was great, but it was time for Crede to move on. One player with a forced foot out the door is enough, but this team has two. That's not how you create a championship ballclub.

 

 

Centerfield, Leftfield, where's Swish going to play, who the hell's in our outfield?

Yet another screwup by management by over-crowding our outfield. With Jerry Owens in-house and being given every chance to start for this team, it's obvious that management thinks incredibly highly of him and had no intention on anyone else starting in CF. So why was Nick Swisher fielding there in Spring Training? Now, Brian Anderson has had his ups and downs. However, KW has managed to not move him regardless of what he's said about him to the press and how he's handled Anderson. So here's BA, to no one's surprise a talented player having been a first round draft pick, raking in Spring Training, yet Jerry Owens gets all of 36 at bats in Spring Training and it's obvious management was going to hand him the starting job. However, it seems he's being DL'd right before the season starts. We're 5 days away from Opening Day, and the outfield is filled with questions. Now, with "Black Prancer" DL'd, Anderson's the obvious choice to start, and I hope he continues to rake as I've always been a fan regardless of what this franchise has tried to do to him.

 

Now, here's Carlos Quentin, a guy KW got for Chris Carter, one of many of our top prospects who would be moved this offseason, and Quentin might start the season in AAA or a backup role (correct me if something's been announced already). The perception when he was acquired is that he's a high-upside, power bat (with good OBP), and the trade was a steal. Even I thought so. Then, not long after that, KW trades 3 more of our top prospects for Nick Swisher, whom he forces to play some games in CF in Spring Training, and never gives a defined role to... CF, LF, lead off, 3-hole, 6-spot, where's he going to play? The guy who everyone considers this franchise's cornerstone is not being given a defined role. He's being juggled around. Luckily for the White Sox he's a class act and hasn't complained.

 

 

Summary

My main argument here is that management has no gameplan. Now, I understand Kenny holds onto the weird notion that the White Sox are going to compete this year. That's fine, delusional GMs eventually get fired. However, have you ever seen a true title contender have so many question marks heading into a season? Absolutely not.

 

Yeah, I jumped around a lot, but this is a lot of stupidity for one offseason. If the White Sox do what we think they will (hover around .500 or worse) with their 3-5 starters all being huge question marks and a lineup that still tries to only hit homeruns aside from its 33 year old shortstop, what will we have to show for it? I believe another relatively high draft pick that we can combine with this year's high pick to trade for another guy who will help Mr. AARP Jim Thome and co. flounder toward a .500 finish. Maybe we'll throw Poreda into that trade as well.

 

/rant

Edited March 26, 2008 by Steve9347

[Brian]

While it sucks, I kind or understand the whole Crede/Fields thing. Fields should be playing everyday and not backing up.

 

I'm just distraught that I have to watch Uribe bat for another year or however long he is here. Ugh.

[The Beast]

I just am curious about the makeup 25-man roster and if KW keeps Masset over Wassermann, which potentially could be a truly stupid move.

Edited March 26, 2008 by The Beast

[NorthSideSox72]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks it was a pretty good offseason, when you look at the end result. The 3/31 roster will be a huge improvement over last year's team. That's what I wanted, that's what we got.

 

Sure, it would have been better to trade Crede for a good prospect - but that is beyond the team's control. Uribe at 2B is less than ideal, but, Richar and Ramirez are right behind him if he fails. And the OF is pretty well loaded with talent now, though one hopes that Quentin and Anderson can play well enough to keep Owens in a backup role of some sort.

 

My only major concerns are Contreras, Danks and Floyd in that order of concern, and having Toby Hall as the backup C. The other stuff - who starts at 2B, how CF will shake out, who they choose for the 7th bullpen spot - are relatively minor concerns.

 

[GreatScott82]

While it sucks, I kind or understand the whole Crede/Fields thing. Fields should be playing everyday and not backing up.

 

I'm just distraught that I have to watch Uribe bat for another year or however long he is here. Ugh.

The only good news is. If Uribe once again gets off to a horrible start, Ramirez will be their waiting to take his job. Same goes for Crede if he bats .100 for the month of April, look for Fields to be up here by May. The one possitive about this situation is the Sox probably have the best defensive infield in the AL. Uribe is solid, Crede is amazing at 3rd, Konerko scoops everything at 1st and Cabrera just won the Gold Glove at SS.

 

I am worried about the CF situation now that my boy JO is on the 15 day DL. But Brian Anderson deserves this oppurtunity to start in CF. Hell if he continues to hit during the regular season i would just have him be our leadoff hitter.

[BigSqwert]

I can't remember the last time I was so disinterested in the White Sox. I have yet to watch or listen to a single inning of spring training.

[Disco72]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks it was a pretty good offseason, when you look at the end result. The 3/31 roster will be a huge improvement over last year's team. That's what I wanted, that's what we got.

 

Sure, it would have been better to trade Crede for a good prospect - but that is beyond the team's control. Uribe at 2B is less than ideal, but, Richar and Ramirez are right behind him if he fails. And the OF is pretty well loaded with talent now, though one hopes that Quentin and Anderson can play well enough to keep Owens in a backup role of some sort.

 

My only major concerns are Contreras, Danks and Floyd in that order of concern, and having Toby Hall as the backup C. The other stuff - who starts at 2B, how CF will shake out, who they choose for the 7th bullpen spot - are relatively minor concerns.

 

I agree that the Sox had a pretty good offseason. Frankly, I think all the Sox have more talent at positions than they need, which is a good thing after some of the players that got on the field last year. If Crede fails, Fields comes up. If Uribe fails, Ramirez or Richar comes in.

 

As for too much outfield talent, raise your hand if you thought Brian Anderson AND Jerry Owens would have very good Springs like they did. Either or both could still fail in the majors, so we don't really know if the Sox really have too many OFers. However, already Owens is injured, but the Sox don't have to worry about playing Luis Terrero out there because we have legitimate players to play the OF in the case of injury, unlike last year.

 

Finally, about "forcing" Swish into CF...he played there last year for OAK, so I this isn't a Mackowiak situation. I haven't seen a single person that watched ST games say he looked bad out there.

 

Top to bottom, this is a much improved lineup over what was out there most of last season.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Disco72

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Great post.

 

-Fields is cheaper and better than Crede both now and in the future, yet Crede is starting.

-Phillips is cheaper and better than Hall both now and probably in the short-term future at least, yet Hall is the back-up.

-Ramirez is cheaper and better than Uribe both now and in the future, yet Uribe is starting.

-Quentin is just as cheap as Owens and is better both now and in the future, yet Owens is ahead of him on the depth chart.

-Anderson is just as cheap as Owens and is better both now and in the future, yet Owens is ahead of him on the depth chart.

-Richar is cheaper and better than Uribe both now and in the future, but because of his injury he cannot make the team. That's fine. But...

-Bourgeois is also cheaper than Uribe, he also gives better AB's than Uribe, and while his defense is a drop-off from Juan, his speed and versatility off the bench make him more of a long-term benefit than Uribe.

 

The Sox need to stop trying to eek a little bit of value out of players that have none. Just f***ing dump them. What, do the Sox think Fields and Ramirez for example will sell less tickets than Crede and Uribe? Or maybe the season ticket holders won't support a team without a s***ty defensive fast guy with no power at the top of the lineup? I tend to think that 1) Sox fans would rather win, 2) the team on the field isn't as strong as it could and should be, and 3) we're already f***ed this year because of the 3-5 in our rotation, so why not at least put some players on the field who have futures and are fun to watch?

 

I have a sick feeling that we'll wait all spring for Crede and Uribe to be dealt, and we'll read it all in the papers, and we'll even get little teasers in trade rumors that make us believe some team wants to take the salary of one of these guys. But then that will turn into summer, and they'll still be here, and then the trade deadline will come and they'll still be here, then the waiver deadline will come and they'll still be here, and then finally in September we'll see Fields and Richar up to get a few AB's at the end of a season that was dead on arrival.

 

It's like, I know we're not going to win this year. That's fine, I accept that. We've only won one year I've been alive and I'm used to it. But losing with a bunch of f***ing crap on your roster is frustrating as hell and it takes the last bit of fun out of watching an almost guaranteed 3rd-4th place team.

[Princess Dye]

-Fields is cheaper and better than Crede both now and in the future, yet Crede is starting.

-Phillips is cheaper and better than Hall both now and probably in the short-term future at least, yet Hall is the back-up.

-Ramirez is cheaper and better than Uribe both now and in the future, yet Uribe is starting.

-Quentin is just as cheap as Owens and is better both now and in the future, yet Owens is ahead of him on the depth chart.

-Anderson is just as cheap as Owens and is better both now and in the future, yet Owens is ahead of him on the depth chart.

-Richar is cheaper and better than Uribe both now and in the future, but because of his injury he cannot make the team. That's fine. But...

-Bourgeois is also cheaper than Uribe, he also gives better AB's than Uribe, and while his defense is a drop-off from Juan, his speed and versatility off the bench make him more of a long-term benefit than Uribe.

 

Do we really know any of this? Too long a list for the kind of sample sizes we're looking at to base all this on. Especially Quentin and Anderson... are you looking at their major league numbers in real games at all? Owens' numbers in said games matter at all?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I just am curious about the makeup 25-man roster and if KW keeps Masset over Wassermann, which potentially could be a truly stupid move.

A agree. Masset should have booted himself off this team a while ago. The only reason he's around still is because he's out of options and yet again the Sox hope they can get something useful out of him.

 

Even though Wassermann is not a long reliever and we desperately need a long reliever given the innings issues we'll have, I do not think the Sox should be punishing their best players just because they have minor league options left. One can easily make the argument that Wassermann was the second most effective reliever on the 2007 squad and his spring this year has done nothing to show he was a fluke.

[BaseballNick]

The pessimism on this board is getting laughable.

[Disco72]

Great post.

 

-Fields is cheaper and better than Crede both now and in the future, yet Crede is starting.

-Phillips is cheaper and better than Hall both now and probably in the short-term future at least, yet Hall is the back-up.

-Ramirez is cheaper and better than Uribe both now and in the future, yet Uribe is starting.

-Quentin is just as cheap as Owens and is better both now and in the future, yet Owens is ahead of him on the depth chart.

-Anderson is just as cheap as Owens and is better both now and in the future, yet Owens is ahead of him on the depth chart.

-Richar is cheaper and better than Uribe both now and in the future, but because of his injury he cannot make the team. That's fine. But...

-Bourgeois is also cheaper than Uribe, he also gives better AB's than Uribe, and while his defense is a drop-off from Juan, his speed and versatility off the bench make him more of a long-term benefit than Uribe.

 

I'm not going to re-start the Crede vs Fields debate, but Ramirez and Bourgeois have never played a single AB in the majors, so we actually do not know that they are better than the guys you claim they are better than.

 

Phillips is nearly 31-year old catcher with a career OPS of .635 over four seasons with the Royals. Hall has a .673 career OPS over a nine year career where he has been good enough to be a starter. If he's healthy, you might call him and Phillips equivalent players, but you can't say Phillips is clearly better.

 

Quentin (.742 career OPS) is going to get a chance (it appears) to show he's healthy and productive with Owens injured. Anderson (career .632 OPS) will also get that chance (by the way, Owens career OPS of .639 is slightly better than Andersons). For the record, I'm with the group that hopes that Anderson and Quentin prove themselves to be very good major league players and Owens can be the speed guy off the bench.

 

There are so many definitive statements being made these last few days about who is better than whom that it is starting to make my head spin. I'd rather see who performs when the opening bell rings.

 

EDIT: Princess, you beat me to some of this...

Edited March 26, 2008 by Disco72

[thedoctor]

I agree that the Sox had a pretty good offseason. Frankly, I think all the Sox have more talent at positions than they need, which is a good thing after some of the players that got on the field last year. If Crede fails, Fields comes up. If Uribe fails, Ramirez or Richar comes in.

 

As for too much outfield talent, raise your hand if you thought Brian Anderson AND Jerry Owens would have very good Springs like they did. Either or both could still fail in the majors, so we don't really know if the Sox really have too many OFers. However, already Owens is injured, but the Sox don't have to worry about playing Luis Terrero out there because we have legitimate players to play the OF in the case of injury, unlike last year.

 

Finally, about "forcing" Swish into CF...he played there last year for OAK, so I this isn't a Mackowiak situation. I haven't seen a single person that watched ST games say he looked bad out there.

 

Top to bottom, this is a much improved lineup over what was out there most of last season.

 

i do agree that the sox improved significantly in the offseason. but, did they improve enough to overcome two of the best teams in baseball who are both in their division? i don't think they did, although i would be happy to be proven wrong on that.

 

some of the other stuff, to me, is just people complaining because they like to complain.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

The pessimism on this board is getting laughable.

Seriously. Not that there aren't problems, but, the way some people post, you'd think the 2008 Sox were a wreck. The lineup is far better, the bullpen is far better, the bench overall (except Hall) will be better, and the team has a depth of young talent it didn't have before. That is balanced against a starting rotation that might have gotten worse, though we don't know that yet... and some concerns over guys like Fields and Quentin having their development slowed a bit. Overall, this is a much improved team.

 

[Disco72]

i do agree that the sox improved significantly in the offseason. but, did they improve enough to overcome two of the best teams in baseball who are both in their division? i don't think they did, although i would be happy to be proven wrong on that.

 

some of the other stuff, to me, is just people complaining because they like to complain.

 

That is another question - and one that can only be answered over 162 games. Clearly, on paper, the Sox are, at best, the third team in the division. Like others have said, it really depends on the 3-4-5 starters. An optimist would see that Count's split finger looked like it used to, Floyd showed some talent at the end of last year, and that Danks should be better in his second season. I really don't know if any of that is true, but I like to be optimistic heading into a season. Then again, after living through those terrible 80s teams, I like having a competitive team to root for!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Do we really know any of this? Too long a list for the kind of sample sizes we're looking at to base all this on. Especially Quentin and Anderson... are you looking at their major league numbers in real games at all? Owens' numbers in said games matter at all?

No matter how you slice it, Owens is not a CF. Anderson is, so Anderson is better. Even if Anderson never gets another hit in the majors in his life, he's still better than Owens who is a LF.

 

Quentin and Swisher are corner OF's. They are better than Owens. Owens doesn't belong in CF over Anderson since he can't play CF, and he doesn't belong in left over Quentin or Swisher because he sucks it hard in comparison.

 

Owens = 4th OF. It's not that I hate Owens or anything, it's that he has no arm, no power, no plate discipline, he has nothing in his game whatsoever that says he is a starting caliber player. He just has speed, which just like any other tool in the game, if it isn't complimented by other abilities it is worthless unless coming off the bench. At least his competition has enough talent to where if those guys turn out they can be above average regulars. Owens at best is another Podsednik, and even that is a huge if considering Pods at least has some kind of plate discipline and showed a little bit of power with Milwaukee.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[SoxFan562004]

Is this an ideal situation now? no, but I'll give KW some credit, this is his Plan B,C, D, etc... he made a run at Torii Hunter and M. Cabrera. His big moves did not pan out, but instead of throwing his hands up and doing nothing he made other moves. The bullpen sucked out loud last year, so he addressed that with veterans. He brought a good player in Swisher who is affordable for awhile.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm annoyed that Fields is in AAA and that it seems Owens had an edge over BA all along, but I can't imagine a season starting and going "yeah, the roster is perfect"

[thedoctor]

That is another question - and one that can only be answered over 162 games. Clearly, on paper, the Sox are, at best, the third team in the division. Like others have said, it really depends on the 3-4-5 starters. An optimist would see that Count's split finger looked like it used to, Floyd showed some talent at the end of last year, and that Danks should be better in his second season. I really don't know if any of that is true, but I like to be optimistic heading into a season. Then again, after living through those terrible 80s teams, I like having a competitive team to root for!

 

agreed. i've seen a lot of bad white sox baseball in my life, thankfully not as often in the last 10 years as in the first 25.

[southsideirish71]

Uribe was named the club's starting second baseman less than one week after the Sox placed him on waivers. Two scouts said the Dodgers put in a waiver claim on him, but the Sox needed Uribe's experience.

[Disco72]

agreed. i've seen a lot of bad white sox baseball in my life, thankfully not as often in the last 10 years as in the first 25.

 

I think it was those 80s teams that make me so against a rebuliding program. It just isn't easy to fill an entire roster with good players. Other teams have failed at it, and I remember the Sox failing at it.

[Kyyle23]

If Richar had stayed healthy, I think Juan would be out the door right now

[SoxWS05]

Seriously. Not that there aren't problems, but, the way some people post, you'd think the 2008 Sox were a wreck. The lineup is far better, the bullpen is far better, the bench overall (except Hall) will be better, and the team has a depth of young talent it didn't have before. That is balanced against a starting rotation that might have gotten worse, though we don't know that yet... and some concerns over guys like Fields and Quentin having their development slowed a bit. Overall, this is a much improved team.

 

 

No it doesn't matter what the Sox do, they could get arod, pujos and johan over the off-season and people would still be b**ching about Uribe! This board is just disgusting, christ people. Ozzie and KW are starting the best players they have available at each position, Yes Crede>Fields and Uribe>Ramirez. God, I can't wait for the season to start so people have real things to talk about instead of just speculation.

 

I feel like Sox fans are rooting for Crede, Swish, Uribe, O-cab, Danks, Count, Floyd, Dotel, Linebrink, Anderson, Dye...to fail, so you can wave your finger and said I told you so. Make sure you complain about every player just to cover all bases.

 

 

[Princess Dye]

No matter how you slice it, Owens is not a CF. Anderson is, so Anderson is better. Even if Anderson never gets another hit in the majors in his life, he's still better than Owens who is a LF.

 

Quentin and Swisher are corner OF's. They are better than Owens. Owens doesn't belong in CF over Anderson since he can't play CF, and he doesn't belong in left over Quentin or Swisher because he sucks it hard in comparison.

 

Owens = 4th OF. It's not that I hate Owens or anything, it's that he has no arm, no power, no plate discipline, he has nothing in his game whatsoever that says he is a starting caliber player. He just has speed, which just like any other tool in the game, if it isn't complimented by other abilities it is worthless unless coming off the bench. At least his competition has enough talent to where if those guys turn out they can be above average regulars. Owens at best is another Podsednik, and even that is a huge if considering Pods at least has some kind of plate discipline and showed a little bit of power with Milwaukee.

 

When you say Owens can't play CF, you're talking mainly about his arm? Coco Crisp has a weak arm and his team wasnt totally killed by that.

 

Again when you talk about leadoff hitters, imagine Owens...even with a .340 OBP. Yet, he's standing on second a lot of the time for our big bashers.

 

 

Owens' fielding problems cant be considered so serious that we totally take away that potential leadoff guy. I mean, do we really want another year of having the sluggers up there with no one to drive in?

 

 

 

 

Fault the Sox for trying to win this year, but part of that is making sure every piece locks in place, like in '05. We need a leadoff hitter to lock in place, and we need the 3-4-5 to not be awful.

 

It may be faulty logic to try to win now, but taking a shot at Owens making a big leap is part of that logic.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[LVSoxFan]

That is another question - and one that can only be answered over 162 games. Clearly, on paper, the Sox are, at best, the third team in the division. Like others have said, it really depends on the 3-4-5 starters. An optimist would see that Count's split finger looked like it used to, Floyd showed some talent at the end of last year, and that Danks should be better in his second season. I really don't know if any of that is true, but I like to be optimistic heading into a season. Then again, after living through those terrible 80s teams, I like having a competitive team to root for!

 

I'm looking forward to our third-place finish in the division. Oh wait: did I say third? Why does everybody assume we'll finish ahead of... Minnesota?

 

Anyhoo my problem is we're old and we're SLOOOOOOOW. I'll have time to go to the bathroom and back by the time Paulie, Thome, JD, AJ or Swisher get to second base on a double.

 

Of course I'm not going to write off the season before it even starts, but I have very diminished expectations. I will say that if this is another bad year, dump 'em, dump 'em all (except the Buehrle & Vasquez) and start over with the kids.

 

[southsideirish71]

No it doesn't matter what the Sox do, they could get arod, pujos and johan over the off-season and people would still be b**ching about Uribe! This board is just disgusting, christ people. Ozzie and KW are starting the best players they have available at each position, Yes Crede>Fields and Uribe>Ramirez. God, I can't wait for the season to start so people have real things to talk about instead of just speculation.

 

I feel like Sox fans are rooting for Crede, Swish, Uribe, O-cab, Danks, Count, Floyd, Dotel, Linebrink, Anderson, Dye...to fail, so you can wave your finger and said I told you so. Make sure you complain about every player just to cover all bases.

 

Just the overweight overpaid lazy one at 2nd, and the overpaid hurt not so good with the stick one at 3rd. The rest look good to me.