The joke that is KW and the White Sox

[Steve9347]

Seriously. Not that there aren't problems, but, the way some people post, you'd think the 2008 Sox were a wreck. The lineup is far better, the bullpen is far better, the bench overall (except Hall) will be better, and the team has a depth of young talent it didn't have before. That is balanced against a starting rotation that might have gotten worse, though we don't know that yet... and some concerns over guys like Fields and Quentin having their development slowed a bit. Overall, this is a much improved team.

Are they better this year than last? Yes. Are they good enough to seriously be considered for a championship? Definitely not.

 

My post was more complaining about the fact that this organization has no direction and no plan and is just piling up the players before thinking if it will actually work. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE of how they approached the offseason before 2005. I love Nick Swisher, I'm glad we have him, but the rest of the moves seemingly have no purpose behind them other than to ensure we finish around .500.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm not going to re-start the Crede vs Fields debate, but Ramirez and Bourgeois have never played a single AB in the majors, so we actually do not know that they are better than the guys you claim they are better than.

 

Phillips is nearly 31-year old catcher with a career OPS of .635 over four seasons with the Royals. Hall has a .673 career OPS over a nine year career where he has been good enough to be a starter. If he's healthy, you might call him and Phillips equivalent players, but you can't say Phillips is clearly better.

 

Quentin (.742 career OPS) is going to get a chance (it appears) to show he's healthy and productive with Owens injured. Anderson (career .632 OPS) will also get that chance (by the way, Owens career OPS of .639 is slightly better than Andersons). For the record, I'm with the group that hopes that Anderson and Quentin prove themselves to be very good major league players and Owens can be the speed guy off the bench.

 

There are so many definitive statements being made these last few days about who is better than whom that it is starting to make my head spin. I'd rather see who performs when the opening bell rings.

 

EDIT: Princess, you beat me to some of this...

Just about anything is better than Juan Uribe, especially at $4.5 million per season. The potential Ramirez has is better than anything Juan has done since 2004 on offense. Defense I don't know, but he's supposedly pretty good. IMO, Ramirez failing and learning at the MLB level is better than Uribe failing and learning nothing like usual.

 

Bourgeois proved himself worthy of a shot as a backup last year and this year in ST. He's more versatile than Uribe and does give better AB's from what I've seen. He has a much better idea of the strikezone, and he has some speed and plays hard. He has the grinder mentality that the Sox always stupidly gush over, but that's actually a good mentality for a bench player to have IMO. Uribe is worth nothing as a starting player, he makes a salary that would be better spent elsewhere, and his improved defense over Bourgeois off the bench isn't going to make or break a team without sufficient starting pitching. Bourgeois' learning and experience at the MLB level is worth more to the Sox in the future than Uribe is. And he's already a more disciplined, faster, more versatile player.

 

Toby has been run on and hasn't hit. Phillips has thrown out runners and has hit. Maybe Toby has more talent than Phillips when fully healthy, but he still looks like he's affected by his injury despite his claims otherwise. All you need a back-up catcher to do normally is play defense and hit a shade over .200. Right now both Phillips, Armstrong, and Lucy all look like better options than Hall. Phillips would be the best option since there's a spot on the 40-man open. Armstrong and Lucy can stay in the minors and if Phillips can't hit himself out of a paper bag then you can cut him, losing nothing. Hall if not outright released should be sent to Charlotte to prove he can hit a little and most importantly throw before putting him on the MLB roster.

[NorthSideSox72]

When you say Owens can't play CF, you're talking mainly about his arm? Coco Crisp has a weak arm and his team wasnt totally killed by that.

 

Again when you talk about leadoff hitters, imagine Owens...even with a .340 OBP. Yet, he's standing on second a lot of the time for our big bashers.

Owens' fielding problems cant be considered so serious that we totally take away that potential leadoff guy. I mean, do we really want another year of having the sluggers up there with no one to drive in?

I wouldn't be too concerned with some of the Owens bashing about his defense. His arm is weak, no doubt there, but some people take that and apply it to the rest of his defensive game. In reality, looking at last season, Owens became a pretty good defender out there. The arm is an issue of course, but even with a weak arm, he's a middle-of-the-road MLB defensive centerfielder. His FPct was .991 (would have been 9th of 20 qualifiying CFs), Zone Rating of .896 (7th of 20) and RF 2.65 (10th of 20) - all in his rookie year. Not nearly as good as Anderson is, or Rowand was, but serviceable.

 

The main problems with Owens are health and OBP. If he can stay healthy and actually put up an OBP over .350 - which I think is very possible - then he's not a bad guy to have out there. But he needs to answer those questions.

 

[Controlled Chaos]

I can't remember the last time I was so disinterested in the White Sox. I have yet to watch or listen to a single inning of spring training.

Well maybe when they start winning you can jump back on.

[elrockinMT]

I like the moves the Sox made and I think we will be very competitive in our division. The Uribe situation is the only thing that puzzles me. Maybe they were trying to work out a trade with the Orioles for Roberts? I don't know and obviously it's all speculation. I don't see that Uribe is a bad option though. I have said before that it seems we value our own players so little and are willing to dump them for a class A prospect at the drop of a hat. It amazes me that the feeling seems to be that such a band of 25-40 misfits can't even compete against a group of high school kids. Let's just sit back and support the team and enjoy baseball 2008. I think KW has done the best he can without just giving away players for nothing in return. We are not in a rebuilding phase and have a lot of real high caliber talent.

Edited March 26, 2008 by elrockinMT

[BigSqwert]

Well maybe when they start winning you can jump back on.

 

Piss off.

 

I guess I'm not as big of a fan since I didn't decorate my entire house with White Sox newspaper clippings and free giveaways from the game.

Edited March 26, 2008 by BigSqwert

[rangercal]

Well maybe when they start winning you can jump back on.

 

lol

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

When you say Owens can't play CF, you're talking mainly about his arm? Coco Crisp has a weak arm and his team wasnt totally killed by that.

 

Again when you talk about leadoff hitters, imagine Owens...even with a .340 OBP. Yet, he's standing on second a lot of the time for our big bashers.

Owens' fielding problems cant be considered so serious that we totally take away that potential leadoff guy. I mean, do we really want another year of having the sluggers up there with no one to drive in?

Fault the Sox for trying to win this year, but part of that is making sure every piece locks in place, like in '05. We need a leadoff hitter to lock in place, and we need the 3-4-5 to not be awful.

 

It may be faulty logic to try to win now, but taking a shot at Owens making a big leap is part of that logic.

Boston has pitching. Crisp sucks but has a better arm than Owens. Boston also plays in theme park for a stadium. They ahve many advantages, but mainly it's their awesome pitching staff that enables them to get away with garbage like Crisp and Julio Lugo.

 

Owens has no shot at stopping a runner from advancing 2nd to 3rd or from 3rd to home unless he's basically standing face-to-face with the cut-off man. He might as well run the damn ball to the cut off man.

 

Swisher is better than Owens. Quentin is better than Owens. If you want OBP then you could make the argument that since Swisher is a better CF and a better hitter than Owens, he should be in CF with Quentin in LF. As far as having a fast guy at the top of the lineup, we don't have that type of team. Look at our projected lineup 1-9 with their career OBP:

 

Owens CF .324

Cabrera SS .321

Thome DH .409

Konerko 1B .353

Dye RF .337

Swisher LF .361

Pierzynski C .328

Crede 3B .305

Uribe 2B .295

 

It's still the same thing. It's a slow lineup full of a bunch of hackers and pseudo grinders aka bad players. One fast guy who doesn't know how to take a walk and can't play CF isn't going to help anything. That is still an all-or-nothing lineup, and when you add some s***ty starting pitching, it spells disaster. I'd rather see the most talent in the starting lineup possible, forget the grinders, and if guys like Anderson, Quentin, Ramirez, Richar, etc. can't get it done then that means you go find another talented player and put him in there instead. The Sox are trying to make Owens, who isn't a true lead-off man and never will be, into the true lead-off man they never acquired during the offseason.

[Controlled Chaos]

Piss off.

 

I guess I'm not as big of a fan since I didn't decorate my entire house with White Sox newspaper clippings and free giveaways from the game.

No you don't have to decorate your house to be a fan. Just as you don't have to have 4 FULL season tickets to be a fan. In fact, I would say all you really need to do is be interested in the team...Which you made a post saying you're not.

[Steve9347]

No you don't have to decorate your house to be a fan. Just as you don't have to have 4 FULL season tickets to be a fan. In fact, I would say all you really need to do is be interested in the team...Which you made a post saying you're not.

+1

 

I may gripe, but I'll be pissing myself on March 31 awaiting first pitch.

[Princess Dye]

Boston has pitching. Crisp sucks but has a better arm than Owens. Boston also plays in theme park for a stadium. They ahve many advantages, but mainly it's their awesome pitching staff that enables them to get away with garbage like Crisp and Julio Lugo.

 

Owens has no shot at stopping a runner from advancing 2nd to 3rd or from 3rd to home unless he's basically standing face-to-face with the cut-off man. He might as well run the damn ball to the cut off man.

 

Swisher is better than Owens. Quentin is better than Owens. If you want OBP then you could make the argument that since Swisher is a better CF and a better hitter than Owens, he should be in CF with Quentin in LF. As far as having a fast guy at the top of the lineup, we don't have that type of team. Look at our projected lineup 1-9 with their career OBP:

 

Owens CF .324

Cabrera SS .321

Thome DH .409

Konerko 1B .353

Dye RF .337

Swisher LF .361

Pierzynski C .328

Crede 3B .305

Uribe 2B .295

 

It's still the same thing. It's a slow lineup full of a bunch of hackers and pseudo grinders aka bad players. One fast guy who doesn't know how to take a walk and can't play CF isn't going to help anything. That is still an all-or-nothing lineup, and when you add some s***ty starting pitching, it spells disaster. I'd rather see the most talent in the starting lineup possible, forget the grinders, and if guys like Anderson, Quentin, Ramirez, Richar, etc. can't get it done then that means you go find another talented player and put him in there instead. The Sox are trying to make Owens, who isn't a true lead-off man and never will be, into the true lead-off man they never acquired during the offseason.

 

Owens' ST isnt doing anything for you? He's a guy who has been getting better offensively the more he plays at this level. If he's already a speed demon, why not give that a look?

 

Especially when the other options are Quentin and Anderson... 25 yr olds that havent done much at the MLB level ever. I mean, with them, you're content to project favorably.... but for some reason not with Owens who has actually put together some consistently good consecutive weeks at the MLB level.

 

 

 

Let me ask it this way: what gets us closer to championship level.... Owens playing his absolute best and making a big jump in offensive ability this year, or Anderson doing the same? Not who would be the better player, but which as best fit for the team gives the team the highest ceiling.

 

I personally feel that the absolute best from Anderson this year still puts us in the familiar position of having the 345 bashers coming up with no one on second.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[CanOfCorn]

Stuck with Uribe and Crede??? Really Steve? At worst, the Sox have them for one year. ONE YEAR. There are 3 players sitting and waiting behind Uribe that could hold down the 2B spot. There's one comparable player behind Crede. And do the Sox really want to start the service time clock on players when you have another one under contract for a year?

 

This is a good thing to have more than one player at a position...it's called depth and the Sox haven't had it in a long time.

 

One more thing...EVERY TEAM starts at 0-0. Tied for first, tied for last. You never know what could happen (geez, it seems like I say this every year). You think the Sox are old and slow? How about the Tigers? Maggs, I-Rod, Sheffield, Renteria is getting up there. for speed, they have Granderson and...did I mention Granderson?

 

I remain cautiously optimistic.

[SoxWS05]

+1

 

I may gripe, but I'll be pissing myself on March 31 awaiting first pitch.

 

Yeah, I guess everyone's complaints get thrown out the window when opening day comes and you sit and watch the first game saying "maybe this team is good, maybe I was getting all worked up over nothing. I'm sorry KW, you're smarter then me."

[StrangeSox]

Especially when the other options are Quentin and Anderson... 25 yr olds that havent done much at the MLB level ever. I mean, with them, you're content to project favorably.... but for some reason not with Owens who has actually put together some consistently good consecutive weeks at the MLB level.

Let me ask it this way: what gets us closer to championship level.... Owens playing his absolute best and making a big jump in offensive ability this year, or Anderson doing the same? Not who would be the better player, but which as best fit for the team gives the team the highest ceiling.

 

Anderson had near-record level defense in CF in his rookie year and put together a solid month or two at the plate. There's no question in my mind that Anderson making a big jump offensively to go along with his GG-caliber defense gives you the best outcome. BTW, just going off of ST stats, Anderson looks more ready to make that jump.

Edited March 26, 2008 by StrangeSox

[thedoctor]

Stuck with Uribe and Crede??? Really Steve? At worst, the Sox have them for one year. ONE YEAR. There are 3 players sitting and waiting behind Uribe that could hold down the 2B spot. There's one comparable player behind Crede. And do the Sox really want to start the service time clock on players when you have another one under contract for a year?

 

This is a good thing to have more than one player at a position...it's called depth and the Sox haven't had it in a long time.

 

One more thing...EVERY TEAM starts at 0-0. Tied for first, tied for last. You never know what could happen (geez, it seems like I say this every year). You think the Sox are old and slow? How about the Tigers? Maggs, I-Rod, Sheffield, Renteria is getting up there. for speed, they have Granderson and...did I mention Granderson?

 

I remain cautiously optimistic.

 

i tend to agree with this. to me, the uribe and crede things have been way overblown, primarily because they are popular soxtalk whipping boys. although i wish fields was starting at 3B and uribe was on another team, i don't think the whole scenario has near the "end-of-days" tenor that some seem to be taking.

[Steve9347]

And do the Sox really want to start the service time clock on players when you have another one under contract for a year?

If you agree with the Fields move, then you probably agree the Longoria move. Both are bad baseball moves.

[Princess Dye]

Anderson had near-record level defense in CF in his rookie year and put together a solid month or two at the plate. There's no question in my mind that Anderson making a big jump offensively to go along with his GG-caliber defense gives you the best outcome. BTW, just going off of ST stats, Anderson looks more ready to make that jump.

 

 

is Swisher your leadoff hitter vs. RHP?

[Steve9347]

This is hilarious. Now the "depth" we have in having Uribe starting and fFelds in AAA is a good thing i guess.

 

Seriously, Juan Uribe is an awful player, and now he's, YET AGAIN, in line for many at bats, just at a new position. This is a goddamn joke.

[StrangeSox]

is Swisher your leadoff hitter vs. RHP?

 

Most likely. He'll do a better job of getting on base and driving himself in than Owens will while Anderson is busy providing significantly better defense in CF.

 

If we had a great pitching staff, things might be a little different, but I have a feeling at least two of the 3-4-5 will need all they help they can get defensively.

Edited March 26, 2008 by StrangeSox

[BearSox]

Great post Steve, but I'd like to add something:

 

Why did KW trade Jon Garland for a guy to replace Uribe if he was just going to have Uribe start somewhere else on the infield? He traded a solid no.3 starter (at the least) who is entering his prime for Cabrera to replace Uribe, right? It makes no f***ing sense, and just goes to show you after we missed out on both Torii Hunter and Miguel Cabrera, KW was just making moves for the sake of making moves.

 

Now, not only is this season looking like a waste, but we have very little future as well.

Edited March 26, 2008 by BearSox

[Princess Dye]

Most likely. He'll do a better job of getting on base and driving himself in than Owens will while Anderson is busy providing significantly better defense in CF.

 

If we had a great pitching staff, things might be a little different, but I have a feeling at least two of the 3-4-5 will need all they help they can get defensively.

 

Swisher against LHP is a pretty darn good OBP guy... but against RHP it's less...and that's also where he hits the HRs. Gotta have him lower in the lineup in that circumstance.

 

I personally want Owens in there against RHP, but I'd probably even take Ozuna over Swisher (as leadoff) b/c of those facts

Edited March 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[NorthSideSox72]

Now, not only is this season looking like a waste, but we have very little future as well.

 

That's hilarious. The team is improved, but the season is a waste. We loaded up on young talent locked up for a long time, and we have very little future. Have some perspective, man.

 

[Princess Dye]

To all the pessimists

 

This is no different from most other years. If you dont have top of the line players, you need a lot to lock into place. It's not the NBA, where everything can lock into place and your team still isnt going anywhere.

 

We COULD have a 2005. It's at least possible. For us and a lot of teams in our boat. OBP is improved, but we need the back of the rotation starters to make a leap, and some position player will have to shock us.

 

 

 

As far as the farm system, it's hard to say we gave it all away when we were slamming how little there was to begin with. Either way, it's going to need to be built over time. Fortunately we have guys like Swisher, Fields who are (in different ways) cheap for several more years and (in different ways) young.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Princess Dye

[Harry Chappas]

This is hilarious. Now the "depth" we have in having Uribe starting and fFelds in AAA is a good thing i guess.

 

Seriously, Juan Uribe is an awful player, and now he's, YET AGAIN, in line for many at bats, just at a new position. This is a goddamn joke.

 

Unlike previous years there are players that can replace him if he fails which he might. There are at least two other guys that can step right in. For the 2008 season the higher ceilings guys are Crede and Uribe. They will both be on short leashes and will be DFA'd should they suck. They are getting the first shot. What is the big f***ing deal with everyone. It is not like Fields, Ramirez and Richar even that Bourgoise fellow are being released. I like that there are options over Erstad and Andy Gonzalez this year.

 

That fact that people are complaining that Phillips was sent down over releasing Hall is absolutely laughable and borders are insanity. Those people will bith to b****. If Hall sucks he can be DFA'd and Phillips can be recalled. Again what is the big f***ing deal.

 

None of Crede, Uribe, Hall, Fields, Phillips, and whoever the golden child to play second over Uribe will be the reason this team loses as they guys are not expected to carry the team. It will come down to Konerko, Thome, Dye, Swisher, the bullpen, Contreras and one of Danks or Floyd to live up to expectations.

 

 

 

[WCSox]

Seriously. Not that there aren't problems, but, the way some people post, you'd think the 2008 Sox were a wreck. The lineup is far better, the bullpen is far better, the bench overall (except Hall) will be better, and the team has a depth of young talent it didn't have before. That is balanced against a starting rotation that might have gotten worse, though we don't know that yet... and some concerns over guys like Fields and Quentin having their development slowed a bit. Overall, this is a much improved team.

 

No kidding. I'm not nearly as excited as I was in '06 (or '01, or '91, or '94, for that matter), but I'm pretty pleased overall with the moves that were made in the off-season (except for Garland/Cabrera) and think that these guys have a legitimate shot at the playoffs.

 

I don't understand the rampant pessimism. Or perhaps my perspective is just different, having watched the trash that the Sox ran out onto the field in the late '80s and late '90s.