Share Your Umpiring Thoughts

[BearSox]

Well Ryan Sweeney is batting .000 right now. Looks like he's a complete bust for the A's.

touche... but I still like his odds better then Anderson.

[AddisonStSox]

My take...

 

You would be hard-pressed to find any of my past posts condemning blown calls or actually blaming the umpires for effecting the literal outcome of the game, but, in this instance, the White Sox were on the bad side of not one, or two, but three blown, incorrect calls. Furthermore, anyone condemning Cabrera for his slide is just trying to stir the pot for pot-stirring sake. That was well within his rights as a base-runner and 9 out of 10 officials have allowed slides five times more blatant than that.

 

However--and, in my opinion, this is the key...well, my key--these things happen in the game of baseball. Emailing the head of umpiring, or calling talk shows, or writing letters is just ridiculous. The game of baseball, like most games of professional sport, is a game of human error. Calls like that will happen and they will undoubtedly effect the outcome of the game.

 

But, there are 161 more and these things tend to even themselves out.

 

On a positive note, it looks like the offensive will be back this season and Masset was outstanding--good for him, considering many felt he was handed the last spot.

[BearSox]

The fact that the so called ideal number two hitter had a simply awful at-bat and that Thome couldn't elevate the ball along with the fact that the Sox got themselves a new reliever that can't throw stirkes is what killed them.

 

The 9th inning Joe Crede made me phyiscally ill.

 

They did show some heart and Masset looked good. Buerhle needed to pitch ove the Cabrerra f'up.

 

Those calls were not that bad, not good but not as bad as the Joe Borowski 9th inning show.

oh man, he got two big fat juicy nothing curves, and he couldn't do anything with either. Sickening to see that.

[BearSox]

My take...

 

You would be hard-pressed to find any of my past posts condemning blown calls or actually blaming the umpires for effecting the literal outcome of the game, but, in this instance, the White Sox were on the bad side of not one, or two, but three blown, incorrect calls. Furthermore, anyone condemning Cabrera for his slide is just trying to stir the pot for pot-stirring sake. That was well within his rights as a base-runner and 9 out of 10 officials have allowed slides five times more blatant than that.

 

However--and, in my opinion, this is the key...well, my key--these things happen in the game of baseball. Emailing the head of umpiring, or calling talk shows, or writing letters is just ridiculous. The game of baseball, like most games of professional sport, is a game of human error. Calls like that will happen and they will undoubtedly effect the outcome of the game.

 

But, there are 161 more and these things tend to even themselves out.

 

On a positive note, it looks like the offensive will be back this season and Masset was outstanding--good for him, considering many felt he was handed the last spot.

You can't physically reach out and try and grab someone... that is exactly what cabrera did. That is not how you take out a fielder at 2B, and the umpire was right to call interferance. You take out a fielder at 2b by sliding into them, not attempting to grab and possibly trip them. It was a bad play by Cabrera, that's pretty much it.

[The Beast]

You can't physically reach out and try and grab someone... that is exactly what cabrera did. That is not how you take out a fielder at 2B, and the umpire was right to call interferance. You take out a fielder at 2b by sliding into them, not attempting to grab and possibly trip them. It was a bad play by Cabrera, that's pretty much it.

Exactly. Looking at the replay, there is no doubt in my mind that Cabrera should have been out for interference, and that at the umpires judgment, the batter can be called out, too.

[linglingfool]

You can't physically reach out and try and grab someone... that is exactly what cabrera did. That is not how you take out a fielder at 2B, and the umpire was right to call interferance. You take out a fielder at 2b by sliding into them, not attempting to grab and possibly trip them. It was a bad play by Cabrera, that's pretty much it.

 

Technically, you're not allowed to intentionally take out anyone, regardless of whether you use your legs or arms. Whether or not it's more "acceptable" to use your legs instead shouldn't be the issue -- if you're going to allow someone to take out a fielder using their legs, you can't call them for using their arms. The rules don't make that distinction. Either call it all the time, or get rid of the rule. Selective enforcement is what everyone is pissed off about in this case.

[The Beast]

Selective enforcement is what everyone is pissed off about in this case.

Just out of curiosity, was there selective enforcement about the rule anywhere else in today's game?

[linglingfool]

Just out of curiosity, was there selective enforcement about the rule anywhere else in today's game?

 

The Bake slide. Unless OCab was standing directly on/behind the bag (which he wasn't), there was no legit reason to absolutely cream him on his way into second.

[almagest]

Speaking for myself, not Beast, I think the harm is that it makes Sox fans look like little whiny b****es.

 

I actually think it makes us look worse if we *don't* express our displeasure over at least two terrible, game-changing calls. I think sending a letter to the MLB is far more constructive than whining about it on a messageboard, as well.

 

Also, in regards to the Cabrera play... I agree it was interference, but there was no play on Thome at first anyway. Nothing Cabrera did influenced that. Why, therefore, should Thome be called out? Judgment call or not, that's poor umpiring.

[The Beast]

I actually think it makes us look worse if we *don't* express our displeasure over at least two terrible, game-changing calls. I think sending a letter to the MLB is far more constructive than whining about it on a messageboard, as well.

 

Also, in regards to the Cabrera play... I agree it was interference, but there was no play on Thome at first anyway. Nothing Cabrera did influenced that. Why, therefore, should Thome be called out? Judgment call or not, that's poor umpiring.

The umpire was not in a good position to make that play, so granted, that is poor positioning on his part to see the full play. What should have happened is that the umpires should have gotten together to discuss the situation, even if the call wasn't going to get reversed.

 

As far as the Cabrera slide goes, it could go either way, but even Hawk said it was a clean slide, so, who knows.

 

Is anyone ready to move on to Wednesday's game yet? I sure am.

Edited April 1, 2008 by The Beast

[BearSox]

Technically, you're not allowed to intentionally take out anyone, regardless of whether you use your legs or arms. Whether or not it's more "acceptable" to use your legs instead shouldn't be the issue -- if you're going to allow someone to take out a fielder using their legs, you can't call them for using their arms. The rules don't make that distinction. Either call it all the time, or get rid of the rule. Selective enforcement is what everyone is pissed off about in this case.

You have to make it look like your intent was to get to the bag, not take out the fielder. While Blake's whole intention was to take out Cabrera, it was not blatantly obvious. Cabrera's, however, was. He showed the whole world that his intent on that slide was to take out the fielder.

Edited April 1, 2008 by BearSox

[bigred3535]

I'm sure this sentiment has been expressed, but I just have to say that I really thought we couldn't get unluckier than we were last year. But apparently the fates were just teasing us by letting us get back in the game, and then blowing it due to relief pitching (again) and bad umpiring.

 

On the upside Swisher and Cabrera looked good, and even Uribe and Crede contributed (though I still wish they were gone).

 

I also wish there was another game tomorrow...oh well.

[BearSox]

The umpire was not in a good position to make that play, so granted, that is poor positioning on his part to see the full play. What should have happened is that the umpires should have gotten together to discuss the situation, even if the call wasn't going to get reversed.

 

As far as the Cabrera slide goes, it could go either way, but even Hawk said it was a clean slide, so, who knows.

 

Is anyone ready to move on to Wednesday's game yet? I sure am.

Hawk is the biggest Sox homer in the planet. I love his hawkisms and love for the sox, but he's on the verge of being as bad as Ron Santo.

 

And you're right, the only thing they did wrong was not huddle up and discuss it, but I think Thome would have been ruled out as it would have been bang bang, IMO. And for anyone whining about selective judgement, or whatever that crap was... boo freakin who, cry me a river. Every strike and ball called is judgement. Every bang bang play is judgement. Sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. This is baseball, get over it.

 

I'm ready for Vazquez on Wednesday... he's the only Sox starter that I trust to actually go out there and do good this year.

[BearSox]

I'm sure this sentiment has been expressed, but I just have to say that I really thought we couldn't get unluckier than we were last year. But apparently the fates were just teasing us by letting us get back in the game, and then blowing it due to relief pitching (again) and bad umpiring.

 

On the upside Swisher and Cabrera looked good, and even Uribe and Crede contributed (though I still wish they were gone).

 

I also wish there was another game tomorrow...oh well.

 

what do mean? By going a combined 2 for 9 with 4 K's, with a bunch of weak AB's? Crede's finally AB was god awful. Fine, you miss one hanger, but TWO!? Come on now. Plus, neither made any spectacular plays in the field, just a bunch of routine stuff.

 

Side note, I'm not trying to chew you out either, as you seem smart enough to know that they shouldn't be on this team.

[vandy125]

You have to make it look like your intent was to get to the bag, not take out the fielder. While Blake's whole intention was to take out Cabrera, it was not blatantly obvious. Cabrera's, however, was. He showed the whole world that his intent on that slide was to take out the fielder.

You are splitting hairs here. It was obvious in both cases what the "intent" was. If anything, Blake's slide was a more vicious attempt at taking out the fielder. I'm sure that OCab has a mark from that slide. If you are not going to call it in one place, you better not call it in the other.

[jackie hayes]

I actually think it makes us look worse if we *don't* express our displeasure over at least two terrible, game-changing calls. I think sending a letter to the MLB is far more constructive than whining about it on a messageboard, as well.

 

Also, in regards to the Cabrera play... I agree it was interference, but there was no play on Thome at first anyway. Nothing Cabrera did influenced that. Why, therefore, should Thome be called out? Judgment call or not, that's poor umpiring.

So, how's about we just don't whine about it and swallow our medicine? It was beyond pathetic how Joe Buck bawled like a infant over every close call that went the Sox way in the 2005 playoffs. It depresses me that Sox fans are similarly mewling endlessly about how they were like totally robbed in that one game etc etc etc. There were some bad calls. Fine, let it go.

 

As for the interference call, it really doesn't matter. If the player tries to interfere, the runner should be called out. If there was no play, well, then the interfering runner f***ed up. Not the ump. That was the proper call, and I'm tired of hearing all these excuses. That play was called like slides at second have always been called, and suddenly we're all complaining about it. You want to break up the play, you slide hard with your body while still able to touch the base, you're fine. You start using your arms to grab the fielder or slap at the ball, you're not fine anymore. It's not that complicated.

[iamshack]

Hawk is the biggest Sox homer in the planet. I love his hawkisms and love for the sox, but he's on the verge of being as bad as Ron Santo.

 

And you're right, the only thing they did wrong was not huddle up and discuss it, but I think Thome would have been ruled out as it would have been bang bang, IMO. And for anyone whining about selective judgement, or whatever that crap was... boo freakin who, cry me a river. Every strike and ball called is judgement. Every bang bang play is judgement. Sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. This is baseball, get over it.

 

I'm ready for Vazquez on Wednesday... he's the only Sox starter that I trust to actually go out there and do good this year.

 

Boo Freaking Who MY ASS. These guys are professionals, are paid extremely well for their services, and it is absolutely unacceptable to to miss that many calls. Not ONCE did they discuss the calls with other umpires for help.

 

I can accept one bad call, but when it's more than that, that's quite ridiculous.

 

Now I am still not sure whether Cabrera's slide was a poor call or not- by the rulebook, it was not, but in practice, the rule, as written, is not followed. And while the rule explicitly states that not only is the runner out in that situation, but the batter as well, it's extremely frustrating that an umpire would blindly follow the letter of the rule in one instance, but not in nearly every other instance that is commonplace in everyday play.

 

Had that play happened in isolation, without the other missed calls, it would be easier to accept. But the fact that it happened so quickly after two other, game-changing calls were made, it was extremely difficult to accept and quite frustrating.

 

But one thing is clear- that was not something that is usual or commonplace in mlb. That was ridiculous and something that those umpires should be embarrassed of.

[Metz]

I dont know who has said this, but oh well

 

If the sox were up 10-7, 9-7 whatever call(s) you want to count

 

what are the chances Dotel is in the game at the same point he was today. I doubt it, with Dotel today though, he got hit off of quickly with the first two batters. Then he sorta settled down and looked decent, then it just exploded.

 

Im sure Ozzie would have put in Mac just so people could be like oh look MacDougal has changed for the better ... (with a freaking 2-3 run lead)

[iamshack]

As for the interference call, it really doesn't matter. If the player tries to interfere, the runner should be called out. If there was no play, well, then the interfering runner f***ed up. Not the ump. That was the proper call, and I'm tired of hearing all these excuses. That play was called like slides at second have always been called, and suddenly we're all complaining about it. You want to break up the play, you slide hard with your body while still able to touch the base, you're fine. You start using your arms to grab the fielder or slap at the ball, you're not fine anymore. It's not that complicated.

 

You continue to repeat this, but I'm just curious as to what your source is here. I think you're just making this up and expecting us to believe you.

 

I understand the logic you're using, but their simply is nothing I have seen which states what you are stating.

 

Why should a player be allowed to basically throw his legs and feet at a fielder some 4-6 feet off the bag but not his arms?

 

It still comes down to what Hawk and DJ have stated for me, which is that they have never seen interference called on a runner when he is able to touch the bag with any part of his body.

[almagest]

So, how's about we just don't whine about it and swallow our medicine? It was beyond pathetic how Joe Buck bawled like a infant over every close call that went the Sox way in the 2005 playoffs. It depresses me that Sox fans are similarly mewling endlessly about how they were like totally robbed in that one game etc etc etc. There were some bad calls. Fine, let it go.

 

Who's whining? I could understand your point of view if they were bang-bang plays that could've gone either way, but at least two were bad calls which completely changed the complexion of the game, and that's unacceptable by a umpire judging calls at the highest level. I've always felt that if you notice the umpires, they're generally doing something wrong.

 

I also don't understand that mentality, "swallow your medicine." How about "stand up for yourself when something is blatantly unfair?" What's wrong with that? Maybe it won't get you anywhere, but it's better than being a passive pussy.

 

As for the interference call, it really doesn't matter. If the player tries to interfere, the runner should be called out. If there was no play, well, then the interfering runner f***ed up. Not the ump. That was the proper call, and I'm tired of hearing all these excuses. That play was called like slides at second have always been called, and suddenly we're all complaining about it. You want to break up the play, you slide hard with your body while still able to touch the base, you're fine. You start using your arms to grab the fielder or slap at the ball, you're not fine anymore. It's not that complicated.

I agree Cabrera was completely in the wrong, and this shouldn't even be an issue. But it is fairly obvious that Thome was going to be safe no matter what, so how was Cabrera interfering with a possible play at first in any way?

[Whitewashed in '05]

I read the first page of the thread, but couldn't find anything about what the three bad calls were. Since I missed the game, can anyone give me a recap?

 

Thanks

[iamshack]

I agree Cabrera was completely in the wrong, and this shouldn't even be an issue. But it is fairly obvious that Thome was going to be safe no matter what, so how was Cabrera interfering with a possible play at first in any way?

 

If you look at the rule, it doesn't matter if there was going to be a play on the batter or not. When there are less than two outs, and the umpire rules the runner interfered with the fielder, the umpire is supposed to call both the runner and the batter out.

[SoxFan1]

I read the first page of the thread, but couldn't find anything about what the three bad calls were. Since I missed the game, can anyone give me a recap?

 

Thanks

1.) Phanton tag on Crede at home plate.

 

2.) DP turned by CLE, but 1B was clearly off the bag.

 

3.) Very questionable interference call on OCab sliding into 2nd.

[almagest]

If you look at the rule, it doesn't matter if there was going to be a play on the batter or not. When there are less than two outs, and the umpire rules the runner interfered with the fielder, the umpire is supposed to call both the runner and the batter out.

 

Exactly. It's a judgment call. And any umpire using *proper* reasoning would see that Cabrera's grab had no effect on the play whatsoever. I don't see how you can judge that to be interference, especially after a terrible call was *just* made against us right before this. There was also no discussion of the play with any other umpires, either.

Edited April 1, 2008 by almagest

[almagest]

I read the first page of the thread, but couldn't find anything about what the three bad calls were. Since I missed the game, can anyone give me a recap?

 

Thanks

1. AJ was ruled out at 1B on a grounder, when it was clear that Garko was at least 4 inches off first base when he caught the throw, and didn't tag AJ. This likely cost us a run.

2. Crede ruled out at home with bags loaded on grounder to Peralta. The throw home was awful, and the catcher was 6 inches + away from the plate, and obviously did not tag Crede. This cost us a run, and possibly more.

3. Thome hit a possible double play ball to short, but there ended up being no play at first. Cabrera tried to grab the Barfield's legs, was ruled out on interference, and Thome was as a result of this call as well. Ended the inning, and cost us at least one run. This is the most debatable of the three calls, as Cabrera *did* grab for Barfield's legs, but the rule does state that it's a judgment call, and seeing as how there was no chance of getting Thome at first, I don't know how Cabrera was interfering with anything.

Edited April 1, 2008 by almagest