Negative Catch All ~ House of Blues

[lostfan]

I agree that at times it can be decieving but it is going way to far to say it is useless and unimportant.

If a pitcher allows very few hits, doesn't walk a lot of guys, and is generally hard to score off of then he's a good pitcher. But when the lineup behind him doesn't score, he will still lose. If he has an explosive lineup behind him he can allow 5-6 earned runs per start and still come out with a decent number of wins. When talking about how successful a pitcher is don't tell me how many games a pitcher (i.e., the TEAM) actually won - tell me how many times he would have put an avearge MLB team in position to win.

[Sox It To Em]

I agree that at times it can be decieving but it is going way to far to say it is useless and unimportant.

 

Actually, it isn't. Pitcher W-L records are virtually meaningless because they depend on so many other factors besides, y'know, the pitcher's own performance.

[shipps]

Actually, it isn't. Pitcher W-L records are virtually meaningless because they depend on so many other factors besides, y'know, the pitcher's own performance.

Alright there is way to much Hawk Kool Aid being drank around these parts.Saying certain stats are meaningless is just trying to make excuses for poor stats.

[lostfan]

Alright there is way to much Hawk Kool Aid being drank around these parts.Saying certain stats are meaningless is just trying to make excuses for poor stats.

You can have excellent stats (the ones that do matter like WHIP, K:BB ratio and ERA) and then still a poor or at least underachieving W-L record. Much in the same way you can have a high slugging percentage and still a relatively low RBI total (as compared to other guys with the same SLG) if the rest of your lineup doesn't carry its weight. How many wins do Mark Buehrle or Javier Vazquez have if they get Yankee run support?

[Molto]

Actually, it isn't. Pitcher W-L records are virtually meaningless because they depend on so many other factors besides, y'know, the pitcher's own performance.

 

W-L is still important (perhaps not as important as ERA and innings) because it shows the pitchers ability to win a game in some cases. If a pitcher shuts out a team for six innings, gets two runs of support in the top of the seventh and then gives up two runs in the bottom of the seventh, that says something. It doesn't mean the pitcher sucks, but he obviously couldn't run with a lead. Being able to finish off the opposition when given a lead is pretty important. ERA and BB/K ratio doesn't show that.

[Sox It To Em]

W-L is still important (perhaps not as important as ERA and innings) because it shows the pitchers ability to win a game in some cases. If a pitcher shuts out a team for six innings, gets two runs of support in the top of the seventh and then gives up two runs in the bottom of the seventh, that says something. It doesn't mean the pitcher sucks, but he obviously couldn't run with a lead. Being able to finish off the opposition when given a lead is pretty important. ERA and BB/K ratio doesn't show that.

 

All that tells me is that the pitcher gave up two runs in seven innings. That is a great game, it's not his fault the hitters on his team couldn't muster up more than two runs.

[lostfan]

W-L is still important (perhaps not as important as ERA and innings) because it shows the pitchers ability to win a game in some cases. If a pitcher shuts out a team for six innings, gets two runs of support in the top of the seventh and then gives up two runs in the bottom of the seventh, that says something. It doesn't mean the pitcher sucks, but he obviously couldn't run with a lead. Being able to finish off the opposition when given a lead is pretty important. ERA and BB/K ratio doesn't show that.

Pitchers will give up runs eventually no matter how good they are. That's just how it goes. Sometimes they get tagged for 4 in one inning, sometimes they just give up a couple of 1 run innings. But if a pitcher gives up 2 runs in the top/bottom of the 7th the inning after he gets a lead I would venture to guess he was getting gassed and it was time for him to come out. That happens a lot, actually.

 

Besides, if it says something, what does it say about the other innings where he was pitching a shutout or didn't have a lead? Giving up 2 runs in the 7th is still a QS and his team is still in position to win. If his offense can't come through, it really isn't his fault.

[lostfan]

All that tells me is that the pitcher gave up two runs in seven innings. That is a great game, it's not his fault the hitters on his team couldn't muster up more than two runs.

You said it a lot shorter than I did

[Kalapse]

This has already been said but yeah I definitely would not call Swisher's D out there outstanding. Above average, better than expected maybe, but not outstanding. For an analogy to the Bears fans on here it's like John Tait playing out of position at LT... serviceable, but not special.

My god you people love to nit pick, I wasn't even going to address this but perhaps I should before I get hit with 12 more of the exact same posts. For what was expected of him (MANY people saying he was going to be an absolute disaster in CF) he has exceeded expectations. If you compare what a lot of people thought he was going to do in CF to what he is doing in CF I would say the difference is quite large. When comparing his defensive play to Brian Anderson, Swisher has been mediocre at best but when comparing him to Rob Mackowiak (a comparison that was thrown around during the spring) he's been outstanding.

[lostfan]

My god you people love to nit pick, I wasn't even going to address this but perhaps I should before I get hit with 12 more of the exact same posts. For what was expected of him (MANY people saying he was going to be an absolute disaster in CF) he has exceeded expectations. If you compare what a lot of people thought he was going to do in CF to what he is doing in CF I would say the difference is quite large. When comparing his defensive play to Brian Anderson, Swisher has been mediocre at best but when comparing him to Rob Mackowiak (a comparison that was thrown around during the spring) he's been outstanding.

That is basically all I said. Just that I didn't agree with word choice. If that's nitpicking, well I guess it is what it is then.

[Gregory Pratt]

For a career, wins are good. For a year or two, they're not.

[Kalapse]

8 IP, 0 ER, 5 H, 0 BB, 7 K - LOSS because his defense lets him down and his offense gets shutout

 

A pitcher's win loss record is useless. If you want to know if he's blowing games in the late innings, take a look at his splits, his W/L record is only going to lie to you.

[shipps]

Can someone tell me when wins dont reflect on how a pitcher has pitched when they have won 18 or more wins?Its always when they dont have that many wins,people throw the W-L doesnt matter out there.

[Sox It To Em]

For a career, wins are good. For a year or two, they're not.

 

I'll somewhat agree with this. It's nigh impossible for an average/poor pitcher to "luck" his way to a substantial amount of career wins. This is because factors such as run support and the quality of bullpens tend to even out over the course of career. But even when comparing career numbers, I can think of no possible reason why someone would consider wins before any of the more telling statistics.

 

Can someone tell me when wins dont reflect on how a pitcher has pitched when they have won 18 or more wins?Its always when they dont have that many wins,people throw the W-L doesnt matter out there.

 

2006 Jon Garland comes to mind. Had a 4.50+ ERA, but won 18 games because he received great run support.

[lostfan]

Can someone tell me when wins dont reflect on how a pitcher has pitched when they have won 18 or more wins?Its always when they dont have that many wins,people throw the W-L doesnt matter out there.

It's much more common for a good pitcher to lose a game they deserved to win than for a s***ty pitcher to win a game they should've lost. You'll see much more times like the Buehrle example Kalapse posted than a hypothetical example where a pitcher allows 8 runs through 3 innings but his offense explodes and has a 2-run lead that gets maintained for the rest of the game. Usually they'll just end up with a no-decision if their offense bails them out and one of the relievers gets the win.

[shipps]

2006 Jon Garland comes to mind. Had a 4.50+ ERA, but won 18 games because he received great run support.

He won 18 in 05' also.It will all balance itself out as far as getting run support most of the time.

[lostfan]

He won 18 in 05' also.It will all balance itself out as far as getting run support most of the time.

In '05 the offense was pretty bad.

[shipps]

In '05 the offense was pretty bad.

Thats my point.

[Sox It To Em]

Thats my point.

 

Yes, but in '05 JG had an ERA almost a full run better than '06, so he "deserved" the 18 wins (and although our offense sucked, we had a fantastic bullpen). Even when Garland's ERA ballooned the following year, he still won 18 games because it coincided with the offense improving immensely.

[lostfan]

Thats my point.

I started to make a point but got sidetracked and forgot what I was talking about

 

I think I was going to say that '05 was the anomaly year for Garland and your point would carry more weight if his ERA wasn't a full point lower. He hasn't been that good in his career before or since (2001 notwithstanding, it wasn't a full year).

 

Also for further comparison purposes his WHIP was 1.17, and in 2006 it was 1.363 which is more like what he's looked like for the rest of his career. That's a pretty tangible difference.

[WCSox]

Yes, but in '05 JG had an ERA almost a full run better than '06, so he "deserved" the 18 wins (and although our offense sucked, we had a fantastic bullpen). Even when Garland's ERA ballooned the following year, he still won 18 games because it coincided with the offense improving immensely.

 

The lights-out bullpen that Garland had in '05 certainly helped as well.

 

[greg775]

2.) To make up (in part) for his unacceptable offensive production Nick has been playing outstanding defense in centerfeld, Podsednik -- on his best days -- plays a terrible left field.

 

I'm glad we agree Swish's offensive production has been unacceptable.

You got to hit better than .220 no matter how many walks you draw.

[Dick Allen]

I'm glad we agree Swish's offensive production has been unacceptable.

You got to hit better than .220 no matter how many walks you draw.

As bad as Swisher has supposedly been offensively, his OBP is better than Pods' was in 2005. He is scoring runs at a higher rate than Pods did in 2005 and he is driving in runs at a higher rate than Pods did in 2005.

[lostfan]

I'm not concerned with Swish's recent lack of hitting. It's just a slump for now and he's never been known as a high-average hitter. However, I will say that he appears to be handcuffed some by being in the leadoff spot. But he's the only one that it really makes sense to put there for now.

[fathom]

Orlando Cabrera is simply awful. Talk about someone just going through the motions on the field.