2008 General Election Discussion Thread

[mr_genius]

I have bad news for your analysis. When the outsiders of your campaign are creating pamphlets calling him an arab, writing books about how he's a muslim, and bringing on guests saying Obama only came to Chicago "probably" because of Ayers and is now just a puppet for him, while the candidates are saying he's palling around with terrorists, questioning who he is - 20 months in -, making ALL their ads negative - most not having anything to do with policy -, these all fuel one message. And the difference, the reality, is that Obama is black and has an arab name. So these same statements applied to Ronald Reagan vs. Barack Obama bring out different reactions in their intent. So, McCain can swoop into these rallies, Palin can swoop into these rallies, say these things that have roots in previous claims, all though being an outsider is usually run as a good thing (Palin can both run as an outsider and blast Obama for being an outsider! ), and leave acting oblivious to how their message is received. But when these phrases, along with fueling this relationship with Ayers, and him being black with a Muslim name, are clearly igniting in people hatred and racism, THEY are responsible. If these motifs they are spreading, whether intended to frame in a different way, are being received in another, THEY are responsible. THEY are responsible for these racist crowds. McCain is more than capable on framing this election on experience and taxes, he hasn't done that. He's done it on character, against a black candidate. So yes, in a world that deals with realities, McCain's campaign absolutely has infused racism into it. I didn't even mention the elitist, UPPITY Obama uses.

 

McCain criticizing Obama, or bringing up the fact that Obama started a campaign at Bill Ayers house, is stuff that was going to come up even if Obama was white. Basically, every crazy person that hates Obama is a direct result from McCain criticizing Obama? It's just such a bogus argument. McCain hasn't said anything about Obama being black, or a Muslim; McCain got booed for defending the Obama slams at a McCain town hall meeting. You read so much into everything even when nothing is there. I understand you REALLY REALLY like Obama, but people will run against him in elections, deal with it.

 

I mean everytime someone criticized the guy they get labeled 'racist'. The Clintons were labeled racists for f***s sake by you people. This whole 'McCain is fueling racism' stuff is far fetched and over the top. I'm sure there are McCain supporters with extreme views, as are certain Obama voters. It's completely impossible for these candidates to control everything their supporters do.

Edited October 15, 2008 by mr_genius

[southsider2k5]

Hence why I said "kinds of people." This isn't my argument, I backed out a couple of pages ago out of disinterest.

 

I have avoided most of the arguement because both campaigns have run the exact campaigns they have accused the others of running. This has been by far the dirtiest and most negative campaign I have ever seen by both candidates. There has been more innuendo, guilt by association, and cheap scare tactics used by both parties than I care to think of.

[Controlled Chaos]

To me, McCain is an outsider, he doesn't see America the way I do.

I wouldn't try to change you, nor would I be calling you racist for having that opinion. the racism charge doesn't work so well because McCain is white. Lets use Palin...which I'm sure you have the same feelings about. I wouldn't call you sexist for saying she is an outsider and doesn't see America the way you do.

 

 

 

[lostfan]

I don't agree with that sign anymore than you do. What does that have to do with McCain or his campaign. Yeah there are wackos out there on both sides. I'm sure we can dig up some pictures from the left....should we associate those as coming directly from Obama or his campaign?

People like this on the left, to be somewhat balanced

http://i35.tinypic.com/ek2ikl.jpg

(don't click that link if you're easily offended)

 

All I did was post the picture to be taken at face value.

[lostfan]

I have avoided most of the arguement because both campaigns have run the exact campaigns they have accused the others of running. This has been by far the dirtiest and most negative campaign I have ever seen by both candidates. There has been more innuendo, guilt by association, and cheap scare tactics used by both parties than I care to think of.

I don't consider the linking Bush to McCain as a "guilt by association" thing personally. Maybe it's been excessive, but it's a sound political strategy. Frankly they would be dumb not to capitalize on the fact that the incumbent's policies are wildly unpopular and that the candidate supports most of those policies, except for a couple.

[bmags]

McCain criticizing Obama, or bringing up the fact that Obama started a campaign at Bill Ayers house, is stuff that was going to come up even if Obama was white. Basically, every crazy person that hates Obama is a direct result from McCain criticizing Obama? It's just such a bogus argument. McCain hasn't said anything about Obama being black, or a Muslim; McCain got booed for defending the Obama slams at a McCain town hall meeting. You read so much into everything even when nothing is there. I understand you REALLY REALLY like Obama, but people will run against him in elections, deal with it.

 

I mean everytime someone criticized the guy they get labeled 'racist'. The Clintons were labeled racists for f***s sake by you people. This whole 'McCain is fueling racism' stuff is far fetched and over the top. I'm sure there are McCain supporters with extreme views, as are certain Obama voters. It's completely impossible for these candidates to control everything their supporters do.

 

It's not a bogus argument. Where were these crowds in August? Where were these crowds when "dangerously inexperienced celebrity" was gaining headway? Then it was a general mocking that this guy thought he could be president. Now this is different. This is people saying "Kill Him" "Off with his head" "Terrorist". What's Palin/McCain's main talking points now? Is it celebrity? It's Ayers. They highlight him being a dangerous outsider with terrorist ties. The opening speakers once again call him Barack Hussein Obama. The pastors call for God to elect McCain so God doesn't get outrun by the Hindu Gods in America. BUt this is coincidence. This is a few whackos, that decide to come out...now. Not 3 months ago. Now. And this has nothing to do with McCain's campaign?

 

You act like Clinton was just labeled racist out of the blue. The comment derided Obama as just another black candidate, getting the black vote. If you don't see how I'm the candidate for the Hard working, white Americans, in West Virginia, of all places, could not be seen as infusing race into the race, then this is naive. I don't begin to believe that Bill or Hillary Clinton is racist, but that doesn't mean that they didn't infuse race into their campain during the primaries. You again fail to see the implications of these statements. If I were to have the view, that there has never been racism or fear of a candidate of an opposing race taking power, therefore there is now no fear of a candidate of a different race taking power, then I could see how this could be seen as blowing something out of nothing. But, just because these claims made against John Kerry, out of touch liberal american, french, were innocuous to him, were merely mocking, doesn't mean that if these same claims made Obama could not incite different reactions about him. When your entire campaign against Obama right now is specifically that he's dangerous, a terrorist sympathizer, not one of us, hiding who he really is, and it produces this reaction - what part of these are you inciting? The I don't want to be taxed part? Please. We have to live with the realities of our world. When McCain decided in October to run exclusively on Ayers, on Obama not being an open book, and is surprised that the reaction is this vitriolic, perhaps he should realize that he is inciting the darkest part of America's conscience.

 

Not to say McCain cannot bring up Ayers. But his claim that he's merely bringing up judgment is false. He's planting the seeds of "birds of a feather". The fact that he repudiated one town hall after a week of criticism, frankly, doesn't encourage me.

[mr_genius]

It's not a bogus argument. Where were these crowds in August? Where were these crowds when "dangerously inexperienced celebrity" was gaining headway? Then it was a general mocking that this guy thought he could be president. Now this is different. This is people saying "Kill Him" "Off with his head" "Terrorist". What's Palin/McCain's main talking points now? Is it celebrity? It's Ayers. They highlight him being a dangerous outsider with terrorist ties. The opening speakers once again call him Barack Hussein Obama. The pastors call for God to elect McCain so God doesn't get outrun by the Hindu Gods in America. BUt this is coincidence. This is a few whackos, that decide to come out...now. Not 3 months ago. Now. And this has nothing to do with McCain's campaign?

 

You act like Clinton was just labeled racist out of the blue. The comment derided Obama as just another black candidate, getting the black vote. If you don't see how I'm the candidate for the Hard working, white Americans, in West Virginia, of all places, could not be seen as infusing race into the race, then this is naive. I don't begin to believe that Bill or Hillary Clinton is racist, but that doesn't mean that they didn't infuse race into their campain during the primaries. You again fail to see the implications of these statements. If I were to have the view, that there has never been racism or fear of a candidate of an opposing race taking power, therefore there is now no fear of a candidate of a different race taking power, then I could see how this could be seen as blowing something out of nothing. But, just because these claims made against John Kerry, out of touch liberal american, french, were innocuous to him, were merely mocking, doesn't mean that if these same claims made Obama could not incite different reactions about him. When your entire campaign against Obama right now is specifically that he's dangerous, a terrorist sympathizer, not one of us, hiding who he really is, and it produces this reaction - what part of these are you inciting? The I don't want to be taxed part? Please. We have to live with the realities of our world. When McCain decided in October to run exclusively on Ayers, on Obama not being an open book, and is surprised that the reaction is this vitriolic, perhaps he should realize that he is inciting the darkest part of America's conscience.

 

Not to say McCain cannot bring up Ayers. But his claim that he's merely bringing up judgment is false. He's planting the seeds of "birds of a feather". The fact that he repudiated one town hall after a week of criticism, frankly, doesn't encourage me.

 

Where were these people months ago? Probably same place they are now. The MSM hadn't recieved the 'McCain = racist" memo from the Obama campaign yet so they weren't trumping up all this bulls***. Now, they are, thats the difference.

 

This notion that McCain is fueling racist is so f***ing stupid. Anyone that runs against Obama will have certain portions of the population reading in tons of innuendo. Honestly, I see more threats of murder, violence, and goon tactics from Obama supporters.

 

The 'McCain fueling racsim' claim is completely bogus; but you are entitled to completely buy into like the rest of the Obama marketing campaign. But I'm not taking the bait anymore on this crap. later.

Edited October 15, 2008 by mr_genius

[bmags]

Where were these people months ago? Probably same place they are now. The MSM hadn't recieved the 'McCain = racist" memo from the Obama campaign yet so they weren't trumping up all this bulls***. Now, they are, thats the difference.

 

This notion that McCain is fueling racist is so f***ing stupid. Anyone that runs against Obama will have certain portions of the population reading in tons of innuendo. Honestly, I see more threats of murder, violence, and goon tactics from Obama supporters.

 

It's a completely bogus claim, and you are entitled to it. But I'm not taking the bait anymore on this crap. later.

 

at everything.

[mr_genius]

at everything.

 

haha, dude you are so clueless. but i do like the know it all college student studying journalism routine.

 

it's classic and truly hilarious

 

[bmags]

Your argument:

 

It's the media's fault (not backed up)

 

Obama's supporters have shown more murder violence and goon tactics (not backed up)

 

It's f******* stupid.

 

And I should take this seriously, why?

[NorthSideSox72]

at everything.

 

 

haha, dude you are so clueless. but i do like the know it all college student studying journalism routine.

 

it's classic and truly hilarious

 

 

Is this going to get uglier, or are you two going to chill out a bit?

 

[EvilMonkey]

Your argument:

 

It's the media's fault (not backed up)

 

Obama's supporters have shown more murder violence and goon tactics (not backed up)

 

It's f******* stupid.

 

And I should take this seriously, why?

A few pages ago I posted a few different links with photos, videos and text of Obama supporters going nutso, threatening all sorts of bodily harm to Palin, especially. Did you just skip by those because they were inconvenient, or because you just post too fast? And did you forget the goon tactics in threatening the FCC license of a radio station or two or the tax exempt status of a group if they didn't disinvite Palin because the Dem person backed out?

Edited October 15, 2008 by Alpha Dog

[Balta1701]

So, if you think the Public Financing system for presidential races isn't ending this year barring major reform, then take a look at the numbers. They're starting to hit the "Astonishing" point.

 

Over the past week, Senator McCain spent $11.3 million on advertising, down from the previous week.

 

Senator Obama spent $32.2 million. And his campaign keeps increasing that from week to week.

By state (easier to read table at this link)

State Obama McCain % Diff

Michigan $2,300,000 $0 O+∞

Montana $250,000 $0 O+∞

New Hampshire $1,100,000 $289,000 O+281

Virginia $3,900,000 $1,100,000 O+255

Florida $4,700,000 $1,800,000 O+161

Missouri $2,000,000 $824,000 O+143

Indiana $1,900,000 $790,000 O+141

Nevada $1,000,000 $460,000 O+117

New Mexico $700,000 $370,000 O+89

Colorado $1,500,000 $990,000 O+52

Pennsylvania $3,800,000 $2,600,000 O+46

Ohio $4,100,000 $2,900,000 O+41

Wisconsin $1,500,000 $1,100,000 O+36

North Carolina $2,100,000 $1,800,000 O+17

Minnesota $675,000 $608,000 O+11

Iowa $590,000 $560,000 O+5

Maine $75,000 $297,000 M+296

We don't have Obama's September fundraising numbers yet, but it seems that they're likely to be close to $100 million raised. And if they don't top that # in September, it seems like they may well do so in October.

[EvilMonkey]

So, if you think the Public Financing system for presidential races isn't ending this year barring major reform, then take a look at the numbers. They're starting to hit the "Astonishing" point.

 

Over the past week, Senator McCain spent $11.3 million on advertising, down from the previous week.

 

Senator Obama spent $32.2 million. And his campaign keeps increasing that from week to week.

By state (easier to read table at this link)

We don't have Obama's September fundraising numbers yet, but it seems that they're likely to be close to $100 million raised. And if they don't top that # in September, it seems like they may well do so in October.

Easy to do when this happens: Hope, change and credit card fraud.

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/News/De...mp;pageId=3.2.1

Steve and Rachel Larman say a strange credit card charge appeared on their statement this month -- a $2300 donation to Barack Obama's presidential campaign. The Larman's say they don't want this to be about their political affiliation, but they say they're not about to give the Obama campaign any help from their pocketbook

.

 

[bmags]

A few pages ago I posted a few different links with photos, videos and text of Obama supporters going nutso, threatening all sorts of bodily harm to Palin, especially. Did you just skip by those because they were inconvenient, or because you just post too fast? And did you forget the goon tactics in threatening the FCC license of a radio station or two or the tax exempt status of a group if they didn't disinvite Palin because the Dem person backed out?

 

I went like 6 pages back and still didn't see anything

[EvilMonkey]

I went like 6 pages back and still didn't see anything

My bad, was in the repub thread. Since these two are similar, must have had a senior moment.

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...t&p=1780393

[bmags]

My bad, was in the repub thread. Since these two are similar, must have had a senior moment.

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...t&p=1780393

 

I'd say there is a large distinction between how your crowd at your rallies is acting and these. None of those reactions were at Obama's crowd, so I can't even say that these aren't just anarchists, green party or libertarians. And as for the stuff in 04, that has no use. This is false equivelancy.

[EvilMonkey]

I'd say there is a large distinction between how your crowd at your rallies is acting and these. None of those reactions were at Obama's crowd, so I can't even say that these aren't just anarchists, green party or libertarians. And as for the stuff in 04, that has no use. This is false equivelancy.

http://www.timesleader.com/news/breakingne...unfounded_.html

looks like the reporter probably made this one up.

October 15

Secret Service says "Kill him" allegation unfounded

By Andrew M. Seder [email protected]

Staff Writer

 

SCRANTON – The agent in charge of the Secret Service field office in Scranton said allegations that someone yelled “kill him” when presidential hopeful Barack Obama’s name was mentioned during Tuesday’s Sarah Palin rally are unfounded.

 

The Scranton Times-Tribune first reported the alleged incident on its Web site Tuesday and then again in its print edition Wednesday. The first story, written by reporter David Singleton, appeared with allegations that while congressional candidate Chris Hackett was addressing the crowd and mentioned Oabama’s name a man in the audience shouted “kill him."

 

News organizations including ABC, The Associated Press, The Washington Monthly and MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann reported the claim, with most attributing the allegations to the Times-Tribune story.

 

Agent Bill Slavoski said he was in the audience, along with an undisclosed number of additional secret service agents and other law enforcement officers and not one heard the comment.

 

“I was baffled,” he said after reading the report in Wednesday’s Times-Tribune.

 

He said the agency conducted an investigation Wednesday, after seeing the story, and could not find one person to corroborate the allegation other than Singleton.

 

Slavoski said more than 20 non-security agents were interviewed Wednesday, from news media to ordinary citizens in attendance at the rally for the Republican vice presidential candidate held at the Riverfront Sports Complex. He said Singleton was the only one to say he heard someone yell “kill him.”

 

“We have yet to find someone to back up the story,” Slavoski said. “We had people all over and we have yet to find anyone who said they heard it.”

 

Hackett said he did not hear the remark.

 

Slavoski said Singleton was interviewed Wednesday and stood by his story but couldn’t give a description of the man because he didn’t see him he only heard him.

 

When contacted Wednesday afternoon, Singleton referred questions to Times-Tribune Metro Editor Jeff Sonderman. Sonderman said, “We stand by the story. The facts reported are true and that’s really all there is.”

 

Slavoski said the agents take such threats or comments seriously and immediately opened an investigation but after due diligence “as far as we’re concerned it’s closed unless someone comes forward.” He urged anyone with knowledge of the alleged incident to call him at 346-5781. “We’ll run at all leads,” he said.

[bmags]

Oh, great, well then one down 600 to go.

[EvilMonkey]

Oh, great, well then one down 600 to go.

Can you link to even 10%? Or 5%? How about 2%?

[longshot7]

I have avoided most of the arguement because both campaigns have run the exact campaigns they have accused the others of running. This has been by far the dirtiest and most negative campaign I have ever seen by both candidates. There has been more innuendo, guilt by association, and cheap scare tactics used by both parties than I care to think of.

 

People keep saying this, but apart from the one immigration ad, I haven't seen one Obama ad that wasn't the complete truth about McCain, negative or not.

[lostfan]

People keep saying this, but apart from the one immigration ad, I haven't seen one Obama ad that wasn't the complete truth about McCain, negative or not.

The one where he tied McCain to Rush Limbaugh and misrepresented his stance on immigration.

[longshot7]

http://www.timesleader.com/news/breakingne...unfounded_.html

looks like the reporter probably made this one up.

 

Oh please. Just because they couldn't find one person in a crowd of thousands doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

 

And the point isn't that there's not crazies on both sides - it's what the campaigns say about those comments, or in the case of McCain's - the silence.

[bmags]

The one where he tied McCain to Rush Limbaugh and misrepresented his stance on immigration.

 

Frankly, I don't care if he tied McCain to Lumbaugh. After McCain won the primary and during the primary, he catered to every gripe that Lumbaugh had about him. So in that way, i think they very much are tied. Lumbaugh has a huge audience, McCain needs them.

[lostfan]

Frankly, I don't care if he tied McCain to Lumbaugh. After McCain won the primary and during the primary, he catered to every gripe that Lumbaugh had about him. So in that way, i think they very much are tied. Lumbaugh has a huge audience, McCain needs them.

I don't care either, but it was a pretty dishonest ad.