2008 General Election Discussion Thread

[HuskyCaucasian]

Seems pretty Centrist to me. The problem is the Right doesn't want what most Americans want - they want what a select few want. And that's not democracy.

I have argued for a LONG time that the platform of the DNC is far more "centrist" than that of the GOP. The problem is the GOP uses "moral" issues like abortion and gay marriage to make the DNC far more leftist than it really is. I wouldnt say the Right "want what a select few want". They just make their stand on wedge issues that paint the left as baby killing homosexuals.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Athomeboy_2000

[mr_genius]

Obama hasn't explained how he is going to pay for his massive 'free' health care plan. It needs major cost cutting initiatives.

 

His energy plan is weak and needs more specefics.

 

His tax cuts could very well be total bs, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

His attack on capital, in a time when our economy needs all the capital it can get, is really dumb.

 

...the list could go on, but I think you guys get my point

 

I understand that the college student with an El Che Guevara poster on their wall thinks Obama is totally a centrist (because compared to you he certainly is), but he really needs to explain his policies and solutions better.

 

The whole 'Change' thing needs to be replaced with 'Improvement'. I don't want some crappy change which will make things worse.

 

 

[KipWellsFan]

Obama hasn't explained how he is going to pay for his massive 'free' health care plan. It needs major cost cutting initiatives.

 

His energy plan is weak and needs more specefics.

 

His tax cuts could very well be total bs, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

His attack on capital, in a time when our economy needs all the capital it can get, is really dumb.

 

...the list could go on, but I think you guys get my point

 

I understand that the college student with an El Che Guevara poster on their wall thinks Obama is totally a centrist (because compared to you he certainly is), but he really needs to explain his policies and solutions better.

 

The whole 'Change' thing needs to be replaced with 'Improvement'. I don't want some crappy change which will make things worse.

 

Calling his policies crap and inadequate are perfectly fine with me, lets just not call him far left, because we all KNOW that's simply not the case. His health care plan for instance isn't even as sweeping as Hillary's.

 

And for the record, I don't know jack squat about Che other than that movie The Motorcycle Diaries.

[kapkomet]

Most Americans favor Universal Health Care - so does Obama.

Most Americans want to get out of Iraq asap - so does Obama.

Most Americans want Social Security to be fixed - so does Obama.

Most Americans want Bin Laden to be caught - so does Obama.

Most Americans want a higher tax rate for millionaires - so does Obama.

Most Americans want the new energy alternatives explored - so does Obama.

Most Americans want some forms of gun control - so does Obama.

etc etc etc.

 

Seems pretty Centrist to me. The problem is the Right doesn't want what most Americans want - they want what a select few want. And that's not democracy.

That's bulls***. PURE bulls***.

 

I could cite and cite where what you say isn't true, but then you all will just disagree and/or say it's a bulls*** poll or whatever, because YOUR guy is a "centrist" because he matches what you want in a politician (someone pointed that out to me today, which is SO true... ).

[HuskyCaucasian]

That's bulls***. PURE bulls***.

I've seen polls that support at least half of his claims. I'll post them later when I have a chance to do some googling.

[KipWellsFan]

That's bulls***. PURE bulls***.

 

I could cite and cite where what you say isn't true, but then you all will just disagree and/or say it's a bulls*** poll or whatever, because YOUR guy is a "centrist" because he matches what you want in a politician (someone pointed that out to me today, which is SO true... ).

 

I'm not claiming those are neccesarily true, nor am I claiming Obama's is neccesarily a centrist. Just that it's silly to say Obama is far left. Or maybe I have to put it in Kaperbole terms for you to understand... That's pure bull***.

[StrangeSox]

Most Americans favor Universal Health Care - so does Obama.

Most Americans want to get out of Iraq asap - so does Obama.

Most Americans want Social Security to be fixed - so does Obama.

Most Americans want Bin Laden to be caught - so does Obama.

Most Americans want a higher tax rate for millionaires - so does Obama.

Most Americans want the new energy alternatives explored - so does Obama.

Most Americans want some forms of gun control - so does Obama.

etc etc etc.

 

Seems pretty Centrist to me. The problem is the Right doesn't want what most Americans want - they want what a select few want. And that's not democracy.

 

It's not what about fickle mainstream America wants right this second. Increasing taxes on the wealthy to pay for social programs is absolutely leftist policy. At one point, over 70% of Americans believed Saddam was responsible for 9/11 and were gung-ho about invasion -- does that make it a "centrist" policy, or just a popular one?

 

It's not that ridiculous to claim Obama has a lot of far-left or heavily left-leaning policies. Many of those listed fit the description exactly. Government-run Health Care is left, Social Security is left, soaking the rich on taxes is left, gun control (at least to the level Obama supports) is left. I'm not arguing whether or not any of those policies is wrong, but I don't get how anyone can say they Obama isn't running on a pretty left platform.

Edited August 26, 2008 by StrangeSox

[FlaSoxxJim]

Kaperbole

 

teehee

 

Much more accessible than the phonetic-fronted, triple-entendred "Kaproballistic" I'll grant, although possibly not quite as fun for the cunning linguists in the crowd.

 

[KipWellsFan]

It's not what about fickle mainstream America wants right this second. Increasing taxes on the wealthy to pay for social programs is absolutely leftist policy. At one point, over 70% of Americans believed Saddam was responsible for 9/11 and were gung-ho about invasion -- does that make it a "centrist" policy, or just a popular one?

 

It's not that ridiculous to claim Obama has a lot of far-left or heavily left-leaning policies. Many of those listed fit the description exactly. Government-run Health Care is left, Social Security is left, soaking the rich on taxes is left, gun control (at least to the level Obama supports) is left. I'm not arguing whether or not any of those policies is wrong, but I don't get how anyone can say they Obama isn't running on a pretty left platform.

 

I'm just saying there's a difference between the standard Democratic positions, and the "far left". If you want to call Obama a liberal, fine, alright, but I'm not going to give anyone a pass on "far left".

[kapkomet]

It's not what about fickle mainstream America wants right this second. Increasing taxes on the wealthy to pay for social programs is absolutely leftist policy. At one point, over 70% of Americans believed Saddam was responsible for 9/11 and were gung-ho about invasion -- does that make it a "centrist" policy, or just a popular one?

 

It's not that ridiculous to claim Obama has a lot of far-left or heavily left-leaning policies. Many of those listed fit the description exactly. Government-run Health Care is left, Social Security is left, soaking the rich on taxes is left, gun control (at least to the level Obama supports) is left. I'm not arguing whether or not any of those policies is wrong, but I don't get how anyone can say they Obama isn't running on a pretty left platform.

Thank you. And that's the tip of the proverbial iceberg. But he's a centrist!!! Give me a f***ing break. Anyone who says that is trying to spin it to fit their views.

 

America by a "STANDARD" definition is pretty conservative on the political spectrum. Throw out the crazy bats*** gay marriage and abortion stances of the GOP and if people were really being honest, they'd fall more in line with GOP values. Now - much to AHB's point, and I agree 100% with that notion, the crazy bats*** ideals of the GOP is what hurts them, and that is where I disagree with them as well.

 

Now I'm sure I'll get told Obama really values those "conservative" values as well, but that's again, pure bulls***. He's running to the center now that the primaries are done, and the majority of folks are buying it. Please. Maybe he just needs to say "faith" a couple of more times so you suckers can buy it.

 

In terms of American politics, Obama is "far left" - he's not some communistic pig, ala Stalin, but in this country, he is.

[southsider2k5]

Most Americans favor Universal Health Care - so does Obama.

Most Americans want to get out of Iraq asap - so does Obama and McCain

Most Americans want Social Security to be fixed - so does Obama and McCain

Most Americans want Bin Laden to be caught - so does Obama. Who the hell doesn't??? You can't be serious.

Most Americans want a higher tax rate for millionaires - so does Obama.

Most Americans want the new energy alternatives explored - so does Obama and McCain

Most Americans want some forms of gun control - so does Obama and McCain

etc etc etc.

 

Seems pretty Centrist to me. The problem is the Right doesn't want what most Americans want - they want what a select few want. And that's not democracy.

 

There are like two things here that McCain hasn't also talked about. This is one of the most loaded posts I have seen a while.

 

Most Americans want to pay less in taxes- so does McCain

Most Americans believe government is too big- so does McCain

Most Americans don't want 9-11 to happen again- so does McCain

Most Americans want babies not to have their lollipops taken- so does McCain

Most Americans want puppies to be safe from kicking- so does McCain

 

Can you now see how easy and meaningless a post like that is?

 

[Rex Kickass]

There are like two things here that McCain hasn't also talked about. This is one of the most loaded posts I have seen a while.

 

Most Americans want to pay less in taxes- so does McCain

Most Americans believe government is too big- so does McCain

Most Americans don't want 9-11 to happen again- so does McCain

Most Americans want babies not to have their lollipops taken- so does McCain

Most Americans want puppies to be safe from kicking- so does McCain

 

Can you now see how easy and meaningless a post like that is?

 

You clearly forgot that McCain was part of the Lollipop 6, the group of Senators that were rumored to have stolen candy from babies to help maintain subsidies for Big Oil!

 

I wouldn't call Obama's tax position to be particularly leftist, rather than populist. In fact, with a few exceptions, I wouldn't classify either candidate as particularly extreme in one way or another. We are not dealing with ideologues in any way here.

[kapkomet]

You clearly forgot that McCain was part of the Lollipop 6, the group of Senators that were rumored to have stolen candy from babies to help maintain subsidies for Big Oil!

 

I wouldn't call Obama's tax position to be particularly leftist, rather than populist. In fact, with a few exceptions, I wouldn't classify either candidate as particularly extreme in one way or another. We are not dealing with ideologues in any way here.

Rex, I'll be serious in a post for once.

 

I posted somewhere else this morning that I think that majority of Americans, on a "liberal-conservative" scale, is generally pretty conservative. What I meant by that is:

 

Americans would rather pay less in taxes

Americans tend to be religous in some form or fashion (and I don't mean Christianity, per se, although that covers the majority of Americans).

Americans don't want big brother government telling them how or what to do

Americans don't want "CHANGE" - now in the RSO sort of way, they want change, but most are generally happy with thier life and would rather things stay "status quo" - so by that very nature, they're "conservative".

 

What I'm trying to get at here is when you compare Americans to the rest of the world, they're a "conservative" bunch - not stupid "neo-con" conservative, but "content". That's more my definintion of "conservative".

 

I guess really, my definition of "conservative" is more "libertarian" - meaning, leave me alone and shrink my government. I hope that makes sense.

 

Now with all that said, I think that all candidates are trying to two the center line to pick off votes from either side of the spectrum. Duh. They've been doing it for years.

 

The policy stances of RSO are more "left" then we've had in a while, and while he's not "far left" in the worldy point of view that Kip keeps trying to pin on me, he's certainly more "left" then a lot of candidates we've seen over the last 30 years. The "CITIZENS OF THE WORLD" speech is chock full of "leftist" ideas. Now, on the worldly scale, he's a "centrist". But not in the US. The pure distribution of wealth ideas alone could crumble our economic infastructure for decades, and that is something I don't want to "settle for" so that the government can control it all for us. The "free markets" aren't perfect, but they are certainly self correcting more then the government doing it for us.

 

I hope I didn't post too many Kaperboles ™ in this post.

 

Flaxx, where the hell ya been? I been using Kaperbole ™ about myself for months now.

 

 

[bmags]

Americans would rather pay less in taxes

 

doesn't mean they don't want other Americans to pay more though

[lostfan]

Americans don't want big brother government telling them how or what to do

These days that concept is associated with liberals. I'm not sure how or why. It's supposed to be a conservative "limited government power" ideal and originally was but at some point the Democrats picked it up and started hollering about protecting civil liberties, many Republicans are still with them on it though.

[kapkomet]

doesn't mean they don't want other Americans to pay more though

It's been proven at least three times in the last 30 years that economic prosperity in this country happens more when the top income earners pay less in taxes, and it's no accident. Now, here comes the cynical bunch of you "libs" that say it can't possibly work (LAUGHER CURVE LOLERZ!!), but the results show otherwise - investments that these "ricj people" make come back around to actually help the lower wage earners by new jobs, etc. It's pretty hard to argue with actual results and not some theory of why it can't work.

[lostfan]

Simply put, you need a certain amount of revenue if you want a fully functional government that lives up to its expectations. The money doesn't come out of thin air... and while I agree with the general idea that more money to invest leads to jobs I have to start laughing when I hear people claim that increases federal revenue. That makes about as much sense as me quitting my job for one where I work less and make half what I do now, and then saying it's easier for me to pay my bills.

[bmags]

It's been proven at least three times in the last 30 years that economic prosperity in this country happens more when the top income earners pay less in taxes, and it's no accident. Now, here comes the cynical bunch of you "libs" that say it can't possibly work (LAUGHER CURVE LOLERZ!!), but the results show otherwise - investments that these "ricj people" make come back around to actually help the lower wage earners by new jobs, etc. It's pretty hard to argue with actual results and not some theory of why it can't work.

 

jesus man it was a joke that's why the smiley face was at the end of it. Anyways, I don't think any of us has ever said or ever will say it can't possibly work, more that for the last 8 years the tax cuts haven't brought in greater revenue so they've been unaccounted for. So unless McCain is going to detail anything he's going to cut or decide whether he believes in supply side or balancing the budget, I don't see how we're supposed to take him credibly.. Because his laughable, "well, we're going to win the war, so that's 30 billion right there" stuff isn't real.

[kapkomet]

Simply put, you need a certain amount of revenue if you want a fully functional government that lives up to its expectations. The money doesn't come out of thin air... and while I agree with the general idea that more money to invest leads to jobs I have to start laughing when I hear people claim that increases federal revenue. That makes about as much sense as me quitting my job for one where I work less and make half what I do now, and then saying it's easier for me to pay my bills.

There's more sources of the income to make revenues higher. With that said, these dumbasses (my biggest beef with the GOP and their lack of control) need to stop spending so much. Period.

[lostfan]

There's more sources of the income to make revenues higher. With that said, these dumbasses (my biggest beef with the GOP and their lack of control) need to stop spending so much. Period.

It's a fraction of what it would otherwise be. But anyway taxes wouldn't be such a big deal if the spending wasn't crazy out of control.

[kapkomet]

It's a fraction of what it would otherwise be. But anyway taxes wouldn't be such a big deal if the spending wasn't crazy out of control.

Why is it, then, that revenues to the government have gone up the last three times that taxes have been cut? Oh, now it would be more then it otherwise would have been? No. It would have stayed status quo because there would have been less income coming from below the highest levels.

 

[lostfan]

Boring argument. Not interested in the least

[whitesoxfan101]

I posted somewhere else this morning that I think that majority of Americans, on a "liberal-conservative" scale, is generally pretty conservative. What I meant by that is:

 

Americans would rather pay less in taxes

Americans tend to be religous in some form or fashion (and I don't mean Christianity, per se, although that covers the majority of Americans).

Americans don't want big brother government telling them how or what to do

Americans don't want "CHANGE" - now in the RSO sort of way, they want change, but most are generally happy with thier life and would rather things stay "status quo" - so by that very nature, they're "conservative".

 

What I'm trying to get at here is when you compare Americans to the rest of the world, they're a "conservative" bunch - not stupid "neo-con" conservative, but "content". That's more my definintion of "conservative".

 

I guess really, my definition of "conservative" is more "libertarian" - meaning, leave me alone and shrink my government. I hope that makes sense.

 

Agreed 100 percent. You described very well my personal beliefs, and I think more everyday people agree with me than anybody realizes. The problem is, neither party really appeals to people like us. The Republicans are too far to the right on a lot of things for people like us, and the Democrats are too far to the left. Now the GOP is CLOSER to our beliefs overall than the Dems, but neither party is really all that close to us based on what we see of them, and it's frusterating.

Edited August 26, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[Balta1701]

Why is it, then, that revenues to the government have gone up the last three times that taxes have been cut? Oh, now it would be more then it otherwise would have been? No. It would have stayed status quo because there would have been less income coming from below the highest levels.

But here's the problem with your logic...if every one of the last 3 tax cuts drove increases in revenue, and it was solely those tax cuts responsible for the increase in revenue (and not, say, lucky timing)...then why didn't the Clinton era tax increases lead to decreases in revenue and larger deficits?

[kapkomet]

But here's the problem with your logic...if every one of the last 3 tax cuts drove increases in revenue, and it was solely those tax cuts responsible for the increase in revenue (and not, say, lucky timing)...then why didn't the Clinton era tax increases lead to decreases in revenue and larger deficits?

The short answer is timing - and spending.