The Fields Era ~ Developing a young talent

[Texsox]

I was going to attach this to one of the Fields threads, but I think it is a fresh alternative to the other 3rd base threads. A few bullet points to kick things off in search for common ground.

 

• White Sox 3b eras:
  • Bill Melton
  • Robin Ventura
  • Joe Crede
• Coming era
  • Josh Fields
  • PTBNL
• Ventura the best of the lot
  • Set our sights higher than Joe 2007 v. Josh 2006
  • Need to get Josh to Ventura levels or beyond over his career
• Developing Fields
  • No rush, Crede is healthy and playing fine
  • More instruction in AAA
    • Is that good?
    • Is that bad?
  • Find spots for him to be successful

So a discussion on the best way to develop Fields as our next cornerstone 3b. Limiting the discussion on developing a young player with great potential and not, hopefully, dropping into another Fields is better than Crede thread, which we have had enough of already.

 

For his career, which makes Fields a better player, playing now, or waiting. Will it hurt, or will it help?

[kjshoe04]

I think waiting should help him, however I don't know how much. He should get a little better defensively down in charlotte. However, i don't think his strikeouts will ever go down very much. That's fine though. He should be more concerned about developing a good eye at the plate and taking some walks so that he could possibly get his OBP up around .380-.400 in his prime. Could be wishful thinking though. I'm just secretly hoping he becomes a right handed Adam Dunn.

[lostfan]

IIRC Buddy Bell is part of our minor league instructional team now isn't he? That can't hurt Fields' development in the field. Not at all.

[harfman77]

I think that the additional time will help Fields, as I think it woud help Alexei. Both players can crush fastballs but strike out a lot on secondary stuff. In AAA they will not see the fireballers that they would in Chicago, but they will see a lot of junk ball pitchers that will help them deal with secondary stuff in the majors. He will never be the type of hitter Ventura was, they are just different types of players, but he has the potential to have the most power at the hot corner in the history of the Sox. He is a good athlete and his defense will improve the more he plays, which is another reason that AAA helps his development as he will be playing 3B everyday instead of subbing from the bench.

[lostfan]

I think that the additional time will help Fields, as I think it woud help Alexei. Both players can crush fastballs but strike out a lot on secondary stuff.

Other way round for Fields actually. And I'd go out on a limb and say there are more guys with a good fastball in the minors than there are guys with good secondary pitches, those who do have them are gonna be your hotshots that are going to the majors soon.

[RockRaines]

Actually iowa I disagree with you. Fields crushes breaking balls and has problems getting around fastballs. He's a good mistake hitter, but has a hitch in his swing that sometimes makes it slow through the zone.

[Texsox]

One of the differences between AAA, AAAA, and MLB is the ability to throw any pitch on the 3-2 count. One of the biggest changes in baseball that I have seen is off speed at any time, in both leagues. Use to be with 3 balls here come the fast balls. Now a guy could be throwing anything. And it doesn't seem like walks are up. So they must be throwing for strikes.

[RME JICO]

My biggest concern with Fields is his strikeouts. 125 k's in 373 AB's with only 35 BB's. Crede or Ventura never came close to that ratio. I have no problem letting him get more AB's in AAA.

 

Now the problem will arise if Crede shows no signs of back problems all year and continues to produce. Do you even attempt to re-sign Crede or do the Sox automatically give the job to Josh next season? If you sign Crede, does Josh become a trading chip or do you look at him maybe at 1B?

Edited April 8, 2008 by RME JICO

[lostfan]

All of those strikeouts would be ok if he could offset it with a high OBP which he cannot at this point. Whether he does it through contact (ideally) or from drawing a higher number of walks, either way he's got to raise that by about 60 points if he's going to strike out 160 times a year.

[Pants Rowland]

I was going to attach this to one of the Fields threads, but I think it is a fresh alternative to the other 3rd base threads. A few bullet points to kick things off in search for common ground.

 

• White Sox 3b eras:
  • Bill Melton
  • Robin Ventura
  • Joe Crede
• Coming era
  • Josh Fields
  • PTBNL
• Ventura the best of the lot
  • Set our sights higher than Joe 2007 v. Josh 2006
  • Need to get Josh to Ventura levels or beyond over his career
• Developing Fields
  • No rush, Crede is healthy and playing fine
  • More instruction in AAA
    • Is that good?
    • Is that bad?
  • Find spots for him to be successful

So a discussion on the best way to develop Fields as our next cornerstone 3b. Limiting the discussion on developing a young player with great potential and not, hopefully, dropping into another Fields is better than Crede thread, which we have had enough of already.

 

For his career, which makes Fields a better player, playing now, or waiting. Will it hurt, or will it help?

 

This memo would make a woman I work with so proud of you.

 

On topic, I am not sure what the right thing to do with Fields is, but keeping Crede at 3B until he falters or is traded for some serious return seems the right thing to do. The team is clicking and until that stops, don't mess with it. If no one wows the Sox with an offer and Joe keeps hitting/stays healthy, ride this and see if you can add a starter for a serious stretch run. Maybe Sweaty Freddie gets healthy and rejoins the Sox with a rejuvinated arm and Jose takes some geritol and regains his form.

 

Meanwhile, Josh does need to work on his defense and could use some coaching to smooth out the hitch in his swing. If you are going for it this year, which the White Sox brass continues to state, then he needs to do it in Charlotte, not Chicago. As much as his bat MIGHT help, I think his defense would make this a lesser ballclub.

 

In fact, but if Boras wasn't running the show for Joe, I would be inclined to make a serious offer for an extension and trade Josh+ for a legitimate starter or even trade Paulie for the same and insert Josh at 1B.

[whitesoxfan101]

It's hard to say. He needs the work on fielding ground balls, but the quality of fields in triple a and the major leagues aren't comparable so that's not a great foreshadower for him, although the works helps anywhere. Being in triple a definitely won't help him at the dish though. His biggest weakness is hitting good pitches (especially fastballs) and he won't be seeing many of those anywhere except at the major league level.

[Texsox]

It's hard to say. He needs the work on fielding ground balls, but the quality of fields in triple a and the major leagues aren't comparable so that's not a great foreshadower for him, although the works helps anywhere. Being in triple a definitely won't help him at the dish though. His biggest weakness is hitting good pitches (especially fastballs) and he won't be seeing many of those anywhere except at the major league level.

Great points. One of the factors that is somewhat frustrating is last season he showed he could play at the mlb level. Patience is so difficult for anyone, players or fans.

[RME JICO]

All of those strikeouts would be ok if he could offset it with a high OBP which he cannot at this point. Whether he does it through contact (ideally) or from drawing a higher number of walks, either way he's got to raise that by about 60 points if he's going to strike out 160 times a year.

160? If he plays a full season of games, he would have close to 200 K's.

[Texsox]

160? If he plays a full season of games, he would have close to 200 K's.

 

While putting the ball in play may lead to good things, most of the time and out is an out. Certainly you need to look at why he is striking out, poor pitch selection, getting fooled, etc. But I'm more interested in obp and ba.

[whitesoxfan101]

While putting the ball in play may lead to good things, most of the time and out is an out. Certainly you need to look at why he is striking out, poor pitch selection, getting fooled, etc. But I'm more interested in obp and ba.

 

Indeed, and a prime example of that is Crede. He overdoes the making contact with 2 strikes thing and it leads to his legendarily high number of weak pop ups. I'd rather as a whole see Joe swing harder with 2 strikes. He'd strikeout more, but he'd also make more authoritative contact when he did hit the ball.

Edited April 8, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[lostfan]

160? If he plays a full season of games, he would have close to 200 K's.

I was being generous.

[Texsox]

Indeed, and a prime example of that is Crede. He overdoes the making contact with 2 strikes thing and it leads to his legendarily high number of weak pop ups. I'd rather as a whole see Joe swing harder with 2 strikes. He'd strikeout more, but he'd also make more authoritative contact when he did hit the ball.

 

yep, swing hard, you might hit something. He is old school in the contact department with 2 strikes. That's how baseball was played. Protect the plate with two strikes. But that was also when pitchers would be throwing fast balls only with 3 balls. Now anything can be coming at you.

[lostfan]

While putting the ball in play may lead to good things, most of the time and out is an out. Certainly you need to look at why he is striking out, poor pitch selection, getting fooled, etc. But I'm more interested in obp and ba.

The problem with that many strikeouts, and my whole problem with the "strikeouts really aren't that bad" argument in general, is that when you combine it with a low BA/OBP it means someone just can't hit the ball. They can't put the ball safely in play, they can't connect on big swings more than they already can, they can't even foul pitches off to work the count and wait out a walk - they just can't raise their stats that way. For an example of a player like that who's never going to change, see: Uribe, Juan. For an example of a player who did, see: Granderson, Curtis.

Edited April 8, 2008 by lostfan

[Texsox]

The problem with that many strikeouts, and my whole problem with the "strikeouts really aren't that bad" argument in general, is that when you combine it with a low BA/OBP it means someone just can't hit the ball. They can't put the ball safely in play, they can't connect on big swings more than they already can, they can't even foul pitches off to work the count and wait out a walk - they just can't raise their stats that way. For an example of a player like that who's never going to change, see: Uribe, Juan. For an example of a player who did, see: Granderson, Curtis.

 

Which is why I stated I was more interested in BA and OBP. It starts with BA and OBP. If that is unsatisfactory, then look to the outs and work to get better. Don't look at the outs first. Make sense?

[lostfan]

Which is why I stated I was more interested in BA and OBP. It starts with BA and OBP. If that is unsatisfactory, then look to the outs and work to get better. Don't look at the outs first. Make sense?

We don't disagree.

[RME JICO]

While putting the ball in play may lead to good things, most of the time and out is an out. Certainly you need to look at why he is striking out, poor pitch selection, getting fooled, etc. But I'm more interested in obp and ba.

True, but if you strikeout a lot and have a low OBP, then something needs to change. Thome strikes out a ton, but also walks a ton and has a nice OBP. Last year, Fields struck out a lot and had a low OBP (.308).

 

An out is an out, but K's are very important to pitchers because more balls in play equate to a higher probability of a hit/error. A strikeout has basically a zero probability. Now a ball in play can also lead to a double play, etc, but that only occurs in certain situations where a hit/error can occur on every ball put in play.

 

One more year in AAA or until the trading deadline will hopefully help him. I would rather have him play everyday in AAA instead of riding the pine in the bigs with sporadic AB's.

[soxfan3530]

I say we let fields hit in the minors for this season. Then sign crede long term, trade dye and bring in the crede 3b and fields and quentin corner outfielders era.

[Texsox]

I say we let fields hit in the minors for this season. Then sign crede long term, trade dye and bring in the crede 3b and fields and quentin corner outfielders era.

 

Is that for Field's betterment, or the teams?

 

It would be an interesting discussion on Fields as a OF, (if it doesn't mention Crede).

[WCSox]

I say we let fields hit in the minors for this season. Then sign crede long term, trade dye and bring in the crede 3b and fields and quentin corner outfielders era.

 

I don't think that you let Dye go at his very reasonable salary. The odd man out should be Thome (IIRC, they can buy out his last year) and Dye could be moved to DH.

 

Crede here for the long-term would be an interesting prospect, but I don't see JR/KW ponying up the money. Crede would likely cost over $60 million. And probably a lot more than that.

 

[witesoxfan]

True, but if you strikeout a lot and have a low OBP, then something needs to change. Thome strikes out a ton, but also walks a ton and has a nice OBP. Last year, Fields struck out a lot and had a low OBP (.308).

 

An out is an out, but K's are very important to pitchers because more balls in play equate to a higher probability of a hit/error. A strikeout has basically a zero probability. Now a ball in play can also lead to a double play, etc, but that only occurs in certain situations where a hit/error can occur on every ball put in play.

 

One more year in AAA or until the trading deadline will hopefully help him. I would rather have him play everyday in AAA instead of riding the pine in the bigs with sporadic AB's.

 

Thome is also a career .281 hitter, so he puts the ball into play quite a bit too. His BABIP is .330 for his career, which is above the league average of .290-.300. That's why he can generally get away with striking out as much as he does.

 

Fields actually had a pretty solid IsoOBP last year though too of .064...for a rookie who wasn't making contact much, he shows pretty good potential to be a player that draws quite a few walks in the future. If he can learn how to mash mistake fastballs along with hanging curves and what have you that he already can, he'll probably become a guy who walks 70-80 times a year. If he can't hit the fastball, he probably won't be much more than Troy Glaus without the walks at the plate, and that would result in a player who's not a ton better than league average. Give him a bit of time to get acclimated to major league pitching though and I wouldn't worry too much about him.