Pitchers and Strikeouts: Overrated?

[lostfan]

That is correct, and if you think about it, the guys with less K's are hard pressed to maintain a good K:BB ratio.

True enough, but if they're any good, those guys usually have good enough command to where they really don't walk that many guys in the first place.

 

(btw I just looked up Maddux's numbers and he had some obscene ratios in his prime. Late-career Maddux is more like Buehrle, early-career Maddux makes Clemens look like a wild man)

[Texsox]

I think Ryan hit some people just to keep everyone else off balance. I read once, somewhere that something like 80% of his hbp were with no one on base and 2 outs. Maybe he just got a little wild then.

[lostfan]

If you get brushed back by Ryan you'd best to just step back.

[whitesoxfan101]

I think K/BB is far more important than K's alone. However, in general, just give me a pitcher that throws ground balls since you can't ground one over the fence, and ground balls can get you out of jams via the double play. The best kind of pitcher is a guy that can whiff people and get ground balls though, which is why I'd love to see Felix Hernandez stay healthy eventually.

[Texsox]

If you get brushed back by Ryan you'd best to just step back.

He owns/owned a restaurant and motel about 2 hours north of me and I was lucky to meet him one time I was in there for lunch. Very gracious, very nice.

[lostfan]

He owns/owned a restaurant and motel about 2 hours north of me and I was lucky to meet him one time I was in there for lunch. Very gracious, very nice.

He was one of those guys I was crazy about when I was a kid. Funny that his career started like 20 years before I was born and he was still pitching when I was in the 4th grade.

[RockRaines]

/hijack

 

Strikeouts are also, IMHO overrated for pitchers. I'd rather a guy have a 1-2-3 inning with all ground outs and 7 pitches than 1-2-3 with strikeouts and 18 pitches.

 

/back

WHIP and K/BB ratio are some of the most important stats in baseball. A pitcher with a low ERA and a low k-rate is thought of to be less of a pitcher than the opposite. Pitching to contact has always been considered dangerous and more conducive to making pitchers have bad years.

[Dick Allen]

I don't know how anyone can think a strikeout is the same as any other out offensively but important for a pitcher. I happen to think they are important to a certain extent for a pitcher. Its situational. While there are good pitchers that don't get many strikeouts, there aren't a lot of bad ones who do. Usually when pitcher's k rates drop significantly, their ERA's and other bad stats rise significantly.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Dick Allen

[almagest]

I don't know how anyone can think a strikeout is the same as any other out offensively but important for a pitcher. I happen to think they are important to a certain extent for a pitcher. Its situational. While there are good pitchers that don't get many strikeouts, there aren't a lot of bad ones who do. Usually when pitcher's k rates drop significantly, their ERA's and other bad stats rise significantly.

 

I think it's already been said, but basically, if a guy has a good OBP and SLG, you don't mind the strikeouts as much. Taking lots of pitches and being selective naturally leads to more strikeouts. It's the same for pitchers, you'd like someone who has a great K rate, but if you've got a pitcher like Carmona with a power sinker who induces lots of weak grounders, you're not going to complain.

[witesoxfan]

He owns/owned a restaurant and motel about 2 hours north of me and I was lucky to meet him one time I was in there for lunch. Very gracious, very nice.

 

Did you let him throw you a few pitches?

 

 

...cuz I wouldn't have...I may be dumb, but I'm not crazy

[RockRaines]

I think it's already been said, but basically, if a guy has a good OBP and SLG, you don't mind the strikeouts as much. Taking lots of pitches and being selective naturally leads to more strikeouts. It's the same for pitchers, you'd like someone who has a great K rate, but if you've got a pitcher like Carmona with a power sinker who induces lots of weak grounders, you're not going to complain.

Lower the WHIP the better in my opinion over anything. Both walks and hits are the worst thing that can happen to a pitcher. Outs are outs, but the K-rate is considered very important, but can also be modified by less walks.

[jackie hayes]

Lower the WHIP the better in my opinion over anything. Both walks and hits are the worst thing that can happen to a pitcher. Outs are outs, but the K-rate is considered very important, but can also be modified by less walks.

But that gets back to the issue of sustaining whip from one year to the next. Take two pitchers who walk exactly the same number of batters. If one gets significantly more strikeouts than the other, that means fewer balls in play. The low-k guy could get lucky one year and have a very low babip, which would give him a lower whip, but that doesn't mean he can sustain it. Except for certain types of pitchers (especially strong gb pitchers), babip tends to revert to the league-average, meaning the next year he'll probably have a higher whip. In that sense, whip is more a measure of success than a predictor of future success.

[RockRaines]

But that gets back to the issue of sustaining whip from one year to the next. Take two pitchers who walk exactly the same number of batters. If one gets significantly more strikeouts than the other, that means fewer balls in play. The low-k guy could get lucky one year and have a very low babip, which would give him a lower whip, but that doesn't mean he can sustain it. Except for certain types of pitchers (especially strong gb pitchers), babip tends to revert to the league-average, meaning the next year he'll probably have a higher whip. In that sense, whip is more a measure of success than a predictor of future success.

Could be in certain situations. True/false strikeout pitchers tend to have more walks/more pitches thrown?

 

Top Strikeout pitchers from 2007:

 

Peavy 1.06 WHIP

Kazmir 1.38

Santana 1.07

Bedard 1.09

Harang 1.14

 

3 out of the top 5 have a higher flyball ratio as well.

 

 

[Texsox]

Did you let him throw you a few pitches?

 

 

...cuz I wouldn't have...I may be dumb, but I'm not crazy

 

I did ask him if he got tired talking about Robin Ventura, he smiled and said yes. I mentioned I was a Sox fan, and I still laugh remembering. He said the look in Robin's eyes as he got close was hilarious. I believe Robin even said he realized when he was half way it was a no win situation. I think he could whip most of the MPB talent.

Too bad I didn't ask him if he uise steroids, I'll bet my burger would have been extra-special after that.

 

Next time I'm up that way I need to take a side trip and see if it is still open. He's right across the lake from Choke Canyon.

[jackie hayes]

Could be in certain situations. True/false strikeout pitchers tend to have more walks/more pitches thrown?

 

Top Strikeout pitchers from 2007:

 

Peavy 1.06 WHIP

Kazmir 1.38

Santana 1.07

Bedard 1.09

Harang 1.14

 

3 out of the top 5 have a higher flyball ratio as well.

As for the true/false question, I don't know. It would probably depend what you control for.

[almagest]

Lower the WHIP the better in my opinion over anything. Both walks and hits are the worst thing that can happen to a pitcher. Outs are outs, but the K-rate is considered very important, but can also be modified by less walks.

 

I've always thought walks were worse, because they naturally lead to a higher pitch count, and it seems harder to string enough hits together to generate a run, than it is to draw a walk or two, then get 1 hit. I think this is one area where that conventional "walks will always kill you" wisdom is completely correct.

 

But that gets back to the issue of sustaining whip from one year to the next. Take two pitchers who walk exactly the same number of batters. If one gets significantly more strikeouts than the other, that means fewer balls in play. The low-k guy could get lucky one year and have a very low babip, which would give him a lower whip, but that doesn't mean he can sustain it. Except for certain types of pitchers (especially strong gb pitchers), babip tends to revert to the league-average, meaning the next year he'll probably have a higher whip. In that sense, whip is more a measure of success than a predictor of future success.

 

Which is why I mentioned Carmona originally. Pitchers like Brandon Webb and Carmona and Maddux in his prime and Garland to an extent can get away with pitching to contact, because they keep the ball on the ground. Being a flyball pitcher and pitching to contact is a recipe for disaster.

[lostfan]

Which is why I mentioned Carmona originally. Pitchers like Brandon Webb and Carmona and Maddux in his prime and Garland to an extent can get away with pitching to contact, because they keep the ball on the ground. Being a flyball pitcher and pitching to contact is a recipe for disaster.

Especially in either Chicago park which are basically like Little League stadiums.

[lukeman89]

I think Ryan hit some people just to keep everyone else off balance. I read once, somewhere that something like 80% of his hbp were with no one on base and 2 outs. Maybe he just got a little wild then.

 

 

according to baseball reference...

 

nolan ryan's career hbp

0 outs - 52

1 out - 50

2 outs - 56

[Texsox]

according to baseball reference...

 

nolan ryan's career hbp

0 outs - 52

1 out - 50

2 outs - 56

 

Thank you, I dislike repeating erroneous material. I'm glad you knew were to look that up.

[YASNY]

Thank you, I dislike repeating erroneous material. I'm glad you knew were to look that up.

 

Unless, of course, you're in the 'Buster.

[Texsox]

Unless, of course, you're in the 'Buster.

 

Especially not there.