Crede

[Balta1701]

If you somehow could lock up Crede during the season, then you could start to take offers for Fields. However, you are playing with fire. There is no guarantee Joe and his surgically repaired back hold up, and if it doesn't, you then are looking at Ozuna or Uribe being the starting 3b. Ouch.

And if Scott Boras's team is determined to take every one of his players out on the open market and not sign a deal beforehand, which is his M.O. and which is an idea that would only be reinforced by Crede having a solid season...then we're not locking Crede up unless we're the highest bidder in late November.

[WCSox]

I absolutely understand the notion that Fields comes at a far cheaper price than Crede, in terms of salary. However, simply because Fields is a player that would be making near the league minimum for a few seasons prior to his arbitration years, and Crede would most-likely be an 8-figure salaried player, that does not mean Fields cannot be traded for a similar player at another position. It seems foolish to me that because we have two solid options at one position, we are somehow locked into letting the more expensive player walk or trading him for quarters on the dollar.

 

Why not explore scenarios whereby Fields could be traded for a similar player at a position of need, for instance second base, first base, perhaps right field, rather than assuming he has to become unblocked at third base with the trade or non-signing of Joe Crede?

 

Why are you so intent on dealing Fields if Crede is re-signed? He'll be cheap for a long time, he has 30+ HR power, and he can play all four of the corner positions. That's the kind of guy that you want to keep around for a while.

 

[Balta1701]

Why are you so intent on dealing Fields if Crede is re-signed? He'll be cheap for a long time, he has 30+ HR power, and he can play all four of the corner positions. That's the kind of guy that you want to keep around for a while.

IMO, 30+ home run power is more valuable at 3rd base than it is at either 1b, LF, or RF. In other words, if Josh Fields can play adequate defense at 3rd base, then he's more valuable there than at any other position on the diamond. Trading a 30+ home run 3rd baseman should earn you something more valuable than a 30 home run player at 1b, LF, or RF, unless that person also has great speed, great defense, etc.

[WCSox]

IMO, 30+ home run power is more valuable at 3rd base than it is at either 1b, LF, or RF. In other words, if Josh Fields can play adequate defense at 3rd base, then he's more valuable there than at any other position on the diamond. Trading a 30+ home run 3rd baseman should earn you something more valuable than a 30 home run player at 1b, LF, or RF, unless that person also has great speed, great defense, etc.

 

That may be true in theory, but it remains to be seen whether or not the Sox could get a proven #2 starter or something of equally high value in a package for Fields.

 

Also worth considering is that our farm system currently sucks ass and there aren't many players with Fields' power waiting in the wings. The Sox may be desperate for offense once Crede, Thome, and Dye are gone.

 

[iamshack]

And if Scott Boras's team is determined to take every one of his players out on the open market and not sign a deal beforehand, which is his M.O. and which is an idea that would only be reinforced by Crede having a solid season...then we're not locking Crede up unless we're the highest bidder in late November.

 

Well, I know I am in the ultra-minority here, but I firmly believe Joe wants to stay in Chicago above all-else. I'm not saying he will be willing to take peanuts compared to what he might get on the FA market, but I think he would happily take a hometown discount, ala Mr. Buehrle. I don't see why else he would have gone out of his way to mention how much he wants to stay here at every opportunity he's been given, if it weren't to send a signal to Kenny Williams and Jerry Reinsdorf.

 

As for what positions Josh could be moved for, say what you want about Danny Richar, but he's done nothing to convince me that he will ever be anything other than an average mlb player. I know he hasn't had a whole ton of chances to prove himself, but then again, he's never done anything at anytime in his career to suggest he will be anything other than an average mlb player. And the other young 2b you mentioned I am assuming is Ramirez. It seems quite clear to me that the organization plans to slot him either as a CF or as a replacement for OC should he depart via FA.

 

And as for OF, I see two permanent OF's and a few spare parts. It's fairly clear that the organization does not wish to rely on BA or Owens if it isn't necessary. Once Dye's contract expires after next season, and possibly even after this season due to his age, we may have a full-time open spot in one of our OF positions. That obviously depends on what happens with both BA and Owens this year, as well as Ramirez, and especially whether OC walks or not.

 

Finally, for a farm system as bare as ours, a final option might be to trade Fields for several well-regarded younger prospects to add depth to the system. It certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

I just think it would be foolish to let Josh Fields dictate your course of action with Joe Crede, should he continue to play the caliber of defense he currently is, and produce offensively somewhere close to what he has done, when healthy, since late 05'.

 

 

 

[lostfan]

If you've already given up on Danny Richar, then I don't think the Sox could trade for any 2B prospect that would impress you, or any 2B short of Brian Roberts for that matter.

[iamshack]

Why are you so intent on dealing Fields if Crede is re-signed? He'll be cheap for a long time, he has 30+ HR power, and he can play all four of the corner positions. That's the kind of guy that you want to keep around for a while.

 

I'm intent on trading Fields if Crede is resigned because there is absolutely no need for him on this team. He is a power hitting, high strikeout, average defensive player. Since when have we been short on these guys? 2000? I understand the core of the team continues to age, including many of our power hitters such as Dye, Thome, and Konerko. However, we've just acquired both Swisher and Quentin, who will both be 25-30 HR guys here for many, many years. Konerko's power is going nowhere for a few more years, and he is signed through 2010'. And under the premise of your question, Crede would be re-signed, and he is a 25-30 HR player as well. So power is not something we are going to be lacking.

 

Instead, we should be looking for solid all-around players with good plate discipline and above average defense.

[iamshack]

If you've already given up on Danny Richar, then I don't think the Sox could trade for any 2B prospect that would impress you, or any 2B short of Brian Roberts for that matter.

 

Yeah, that may indeed be the issue here....solid MI prospects are difficult to come by right now...

[lostfan]

Yeah, that may indeed be the issue here....solid MI prospects are difficult to come by right now...

Seems like that, which is why I'm holding out on Richar for the time being.

[southsidehawkeye]

Im curious...

 

What do you guys think it would cost to keep Crede on the south side after this year, and what do you think he would demand on the FA market (it may be the same... or maybe he'd take a home town discount, seems to me like he probably would).

 

Im asking this assuming that he stays healthy and hits in the ballpark of .270-.280 with 30ish HRs. If he doesn't do that, I don't think the question will even be an issue.

 

 

 

Secondary question:

 

If we have to make the decision of only keeping one of Crede and Cabrera long term (because of cost), which scenario do you guys think is better...

 

Crede at 3B with Ramirez at SS

 

or

 

Fields at 3B with Cabrera at SS

 

 

Obviously there are more options than that, there are other FAs... there is always Uribe (*shudder*), etc. But, those are probably the two most likely options if we have to choose one. Just trying to bring a little more to the conversation than the Fields vs Crede boxing match.

Edited April 16, 2008 by southsidehawkeye

[Balta1701]

Im curious...

 

What do you guys think it would cost to keep Crede on the south side after this year, and what do you think he would demand on the FA market (it may be the same... or maybe he'd take a home town discount, seems to me like he probably would).

 

Im asking this assuming that he stays healthy and hits in the ballpark of .270-.280 with 30ish HRs. If he doesn't do that, I don't think the question will even be an issue.

I think he'll get Rowand money or more next offseason on the open market. I think he might take $1-2 million less per year to stay in Chicago if he could get the Boras folks to give up some control. A contract like Konerko's for example.

[southsidehawkeye]

I think he'll get Rowand money or more next offseason on the open market. I think he might take $1-2 million less per year to stay in Chicago if he could get the Boras folks to give up some control. A contract like Konerko's for example.

 

 

yeah, thats kinda what I was thinking as well... IMO they are pretty similar players.

[iamshack]

I think he'll get Rowand money or more next offseason on the open market. I think he might take $1-2 million less per year to stay in Chicago if he could get the Boras folks to give up some control. A contract like Konerko's for example.

 

And if that is the case, his contract will most likely be prohibitive to the White Sox. I don't think they'd go more than 4 years with him. Given his injuries and performance over the course of the year, I'm not sure he will get that much, although in the current baseball landscape, one can never be anywhere close to certain.

 

I would think our best offer would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 4/$44 million with some sort of option for a fifth year.

 

In regards to Crede/Ramirez v. Fields/Cabrera, I like the first choice at this point, although I need to see more of OC before I could really make an educated guess. His bat has come alive the past week or so, and I really am enjoying his walk rate as well. Of course, the money is a big factor as well. Given their ages and skillsets though, I think Crede would be worth the money should he have a good year v. OC should he have a good year.

 

The good thing, however, is that we probably have decent in house replacements for both of them in Fields/Ramirez. But along with those two comes more k's and less defense and experience.

[BlackBetsy]

KW and boras need to sit down

Pretty much where your post went wrong. :lolhitting

[Friend of Nordhagen]

I think he'll get Rowand money or more next offseason on the open market. I think he might take $1-2 million less per year to stay in Chicago if he could get the Boras folks to give up some control. A contract like Konerko's for example.

 

If he puts up the numbers noted earlier in this thread (.270-.280, 25-30 HRs), I could see Boras looking for no less than 5 years at $14-15 million per. That's basically the 2005 Konerko contract ($12 m/5 yrs), with the market mark-up. Time marches; contracts get bigger. Konerko's a better hitter, with more power; Crede plays a tougher position.

 

I also think they'd have a decent shot of getting it, too.

[Balta1701]

If he puts up the numbers noted earlier in this thread (.270-.280, 25-30 HRs), I could see Boras looking for no less than 5 years at $14-15 million per. That's basically the 2005 Konerko contract ($12 m/5 yrs), with the market mark-up. Time marches; contracts get bigger. Konerko's a better hitter, with more power; Crede plays a tougher position.

 

I also think they'd have a decent shot of getting it, too.

I can certainly see a team like the Phillies or if the Angels get desperate or someone like that giving Joe that kind of contract if he put up his 2006 numbers again this season.d

[C_LEE45]

I'm a big "crede is sick" supporter, he also is the sole reason for our theme song in 05 i believe, and won't stop believing. post script. sweet chambers pic c lee

 

 

 

chambers my boy,didnt have much sence marino

[DrunkBomber]

Can I just say, I have been a huge Crede fan for a while, but being at the game today. Damn, thats guy has some leather.

[greg775]

Honestly wondering, should I just stay out of this thread?

 

I was wondering the same thing about me.

I've expressed my fondness for Crede in the past.

So far cheers for Crede, Danks and Floyd. Can they keep it up? Hope so.

 

[iamshack]

Anyone know anything about this Angel Villalona kid in the Giants system? He's a 6'3, 200 pound 1b prospect that is being compared to Albert Pujols....

 

He's only 17, and at least 2-3 years away probably, but is really supposed to have a special, special bat.

 

Anyone know anything else about him?

 

Thinking he could possibly be a target should KW choose to re-sign Joe and try to deal Fields...

[103 mph screwball]

I really think Crede will be resigned now. Of course, a lot will depend on how he does for the rest of the season. One of the questions that needs to be answered is whether or not his back will hold up. Another issue is his past before mentioned droughts. Were his slumps caused by pain in his back before? Will he be more consistent now? There are three big reasons that I think he can get a good deal from the Sox with the usual hometown discount. His defense is highly valued by Ozzie, the pitching staff, and even many of us fans. He truly seems to be the Rally Crede and has a knack for being late inning Joe. As the Hawkaroo would say "Don't tell me how many they hit, tell me when they hit them." It also seems that Crede gets along well and contributes to a good clubhouse atmosphere. I think all of these things and more will be strong incentive to bring him back now.

 

Assuming Crede plays at a high level and Cabrera plays at his season average, I see the Sox signing Crede and Uribe and Cabrera moving on. Alexi the Cuban Missile will be at short and Richar at second. The great thing about this season compared to last season is that last year, we spent most of the year talking about what to change for 2008. I expect a lot of excitement and winning on the field this year.

[NorthSideSox72]

There is just no way that the team can keep Crede and Fields both at 3B long term. One will be traded, or Crede will leave in free agency, or one of them will be moved to a different position (least likely).

 

That said, isn't it nice to be in a position where you have TWO talented guys to choose from to help the team, instead of scraping the bottom hoping to find just one? Depth is a nice thing, for the team. Not so nice for Josh Fields right now though.

 

[WCSox]

I'm intent on trading Fields if Crede is resigned because there is absolutely no need for him on this team. He is a power hitting, high strikeout, average defensive player. Since when have we been short on these guys? 2000? I understand the core of the team continues to age, including many of our power hitters such as Dye, Thome, and Konerko. However, we've just acquired both Swisher and Quentin, who will both be 25-30 HR guys here for many, many years. Konerko's power is going nowhere for a few more years, and he is signed through 2010'. And under the premise of your question, Crede would be re-signed, and he is a 25-30 HR player as well. So power is not something we are going to be lacking.

 

Instead, we should be looking for solid all-around players with good plate discipline and above average defense.

 

So, we're supposed to trade away a guy who can play 3B, as well as LF, RF, and 1B and costs the ML minimum just because he struck out too many times in his first year of significant action against ML pitching? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

Even if the Sox do re-sign Crede, Swisher is the only young player left with real power. Quentin a 25-30 HR hitter? Where's your evidence for that? And what happens when the Sox lose Thome and Dye over the next couple of years? Which other young guys are going to step up and fill their shoes? Who in our craphole farm system is going to step up in 2010 with Paulie in last year of his deal? And let's not forget that Crede's back problems are not magically gone forever just because he had surgery. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to move Fields over from LF, RF, or 1B to spell him every once in a while? And if, God forbid, Crede were to need surgery again, wouldn't it be nice to have Fields at our disposal for the ML minimum?

 

IF the Sox can sign Crede and get a semi-stud veteran C or SS in a package for Fields, I'd be all for moving Josh. But moving him because he struck out too many times in less than 400 ML at-bats last year is downright silly, IMO.

 

I think he'll get Rowand money or more next offseason on the open market. I think he might take $1-2 million less per year to stay in Chicago if he could get the Boras folk to give up some control. A contract like Konerko's for example.

 

I'd like to see it happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

Edited April 16, 2008 by WCSox

[jackie hayes]

Crede's career ops+ is 93, below average. His best full-season ops+ is 107, above average, but not by much. We really don't know how long his back will stay healthy and next year is his age-31 season. I'm sorry, but that's not worth $10+ mil per year for 4 years.

 

Just like Thome's not going to have a 52 ops+ over the rest of the season, Crede's not going to maintain a 162, healthy or not. You just don't sign aging injury-prone below-average hitters to huge extensions. I'm grateful for everything Joe's done for the Sox, but next season at the latest it'll be time to move on.

[Leonard Zelig]

WCSox, you've mentioned a couple of time Fields can play RF. What makes you think that? Has he ever played there?