Where do you rank Frank Thomas in terms of all-time White Sox players?

[Brian]

#1, now lock this thread.

[RME JICO]

Seasons that Thomas played over 49 games at 1B with the Sox: 9

 

Seasons with the Sox: 16

Is that a good thing or bad thing? Also, 49 games (less than a half of a season) seems like a low number. How about how many seasons did he play majority of his games at 1B? As a pure hitter, he is clearly the best, but if you account for his defense or lack thereof, it becomes a competition.

[knightni]

How about how many seasons did he play majority of his games at 1B?

 

Seven of the nine that I posted.

 

About the time that Konerko came in is when he went to primary DH.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

1,2, and 3.

[Texsox]

I hate all-time comparisons in a way. Simply because things have changed so dramatically. How can we know how Babe Ruth would fare against todays pitching? Did Babe Ruth ever see a 100 mph fastball? What would Frank Thomas (in his prime) have done against 1920 pitching?

 

We can also start tossing in conditioning, video training, computer models, better youth coaching, better high school and college programs, equipment, etc. What we can do, and I think it is valuable, is compare them to their peers while playing. Baines and Ventura, while outstanding players, are not names that would come up in discussing first ballot or not. Frank is. That tells me a lot.

[southsider2k5]

The only people who belong in this discussion are Frank and Joe Jackson. No one else even deserves mention. Because of the differences in era, it is difficult to pick one or the other. They both dominating like nobody else for what they did in their era.

[Steve9347]

#1

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

If you count number of times whining about money in the media or if you could somehow quantify causing problems in the clubhouse he'd be right on top of the heap.

 

 

How's things in Toronto going? Oh wait...........

 

[BigSqwert]

If you count number of times whining about money in the media or if you could somehow quantify causing problems in the clubhouse he'd be right on top of the heap.

 

 

How's things in Toronto going? Oh wait...........

 

I thought this was a discussion on baseball statistics not personalities.

 

He's #1 in my book.

[Texsox]

If you count number of times whining about money in the media or if you could somehow quantify causing problems in the clubhouse he'd be right on top of the heap.

 

 

How's things in Toronto going? Oh wait...........

 

 

Yet he never opted for free agency, where he would have made more. He always resigned with the Sox, showing an amount of loyalty unheard of with a potential HoF player.

 

So I assume you prefer a guy like Maggs who didn't whine about the money, he did something about it and took the highest offer?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Yet he never opted for free agency, where he would have made more. He always resigned with the Sox, showing an amount of loyalty unheard of with a potential HoF player.

 

So I assume you prefer a guy like Maggs who didn't whine about the money, he did something about it and took the highest offer?

 

 

 

I wish he would have. Losing him was like having a softball size tumor removed from your body.

 

[Texsox]

I was post #35 cool

[jackie hayes]

The only people who belong in this discussion are Frank and Joe Jackson. No one else even deserves mention. Because of the differences in era, it is difficult to pick one or the other. They both dominating like nobody else for what they did in their era.

I think you have to talk about Collins and Walsh, too. (Collins didn't hit as well as Thomas, but you have to account for position.) But taking into account the amount of time spent with the Sox in particular, and what they did while in Chicago, I'd give the nod to Thomas.

[WSoxMatt]

Frank is #1 for me but like many others, I haven't seen most play

[pcullotta]

Best Player in White Sox History.

 

With a career average of .302, Thomas is one of four players in baseball history with at least a .300 average, 500 home runs, 1,500 RBIs, 1,000 runs and 1,500 walks. The others are Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Decent company.

[iamshack]

In his prime, Frank was the best hitter of his era and one of the best of all time.

 

He's gone on to have a long and productive career.

 

The difference between he and a guy like ARod is Arod has done it better over a longer number of years. But Thomas in his prime was as good as anyone.

Edited April 21, 2008 by iamshack

[hammerhead johnson]

Eddie Collins was considered to be the greatest defensive second baseman of all time until Robbie Alomar came along, correct? Some would argue Joe Morgan as well.

 

We're also talking about 3300+ hits, a lifetime .424 OBP, etc.

 

You don't hear much about him, but he's arguably the greatest second baseman of all time behind Rogers Hornsby. Rogers is on an island; nobody could ever possibly f*** with him, but Eddie is in that second tier group along with Nap Lajoie, Charlie Gehringer, etc. Of course, Nap Lajoie is one of the foremost defensive butchers out of the 2B slot in baseball history, but his offensive prowess was extraordinary.

[the People's Champ]

The only people who belong in this discussion are Frank and Joe Jackson. No one else even deserves mention. Because of the differences in era, it is difficult to pick one or the other. They both dominating like nobody else for what they did in their era.

 

You can't count Jackson, he only played 600 games for the White sox, plus he wasn't really shoeless

 

[jackie hayes]

Eddie Collins was considered to be the greatest defensive second baseman of all time until Robbie Alomar came along, correct? Some would argue Joe Morgan as well.

 

We're also talking about 3300+ hits, a lifetime .424 OBP, etc.

 

You don't hear much about him, but he's arguably the greatest second baseman of all time behind Rogers Hornsby. Rogers is on an island; nobody could ever possibly f*** with him, but Eddie is in that second tier group along with Nap Lajoie, Charlie Gehringer, etc. Of course, Nap Lajoie is one of the foremost defensive butchers out of the 2B slot in baseball history, but his offensive prowess was extraordinary.

Yeah, but his years with the Sox weren't his best. Not that they were bad, and there were some amazing ones strewn in, but his reputation rests heavily on those great years with the A's.

[soxfan3530]

# 1. At least until Pablo's career is over.

[Mplssoxfan]

Eddie Collins was considered to be the greatest defensive second baseman of all time until Robbie Alomar came along, correct? Some would argue Joe Morgan as well.

 

We're also talking about 3300+ hits, a lifetime .424 OBP, etc.

 

You don't hear much about him, but he's arguably the greatest second baseman of all time behind Rogers Hornsby. Rogers is on an island; nobody could ever possibly f*** with him, but Eddie is in that second tier group along with Nap Lajoie, Charlie Gehringer, etc. Of course, Nap Lajoie is one of the foremost defensive butchers out of the 2B slot in baseball history, but his offensive prowess was extraordinary.

 

Collins was a better defensive second baseman than Hornsby, far better. He also was one of the smartest players of all time, not to mention the fact that he was a great teammate while Hornsby was a horse's ass. Most of the discrepancies between his numbers and Hornsby's can be attributed to the difference between the dead ball era and the thirties.

 

If you have Hornsby as #1, Collins is #1A. I think that Collins is better, but what do I know? Saying that Collins is on the same tier with Gehringer is an insult to Collins.

 

Also, I know no one likes Joe Morgan, but considering that he played most of his career in two horrible ballparks for hitters, he should be just below Hornsby and Collins in the discussion. But since I'll never convince anyone of that, I'll leave it alone.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Back to the topic, though. Frank and Collins would be #1 and #2, in some order. I'm not sure what order, though.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Mplssoxfan

[hammerhead johnson]

Isn't Rogers Hornsby often recognized as the greatest right-handed hitter of all time? I don't think that Eddie Collins could ever begin to approach him.

 

Charlie Gehringer was a legendary leadoff hitter, no doubt. I'd put Eddie Collins at the top of the second tier, with Gehringer towards the bottom.

 

Joe Morgan was an OBP monster, a remarkable baserunner, and a legendary defender, but he was never a good hitter. He had a few insane years when he was surrounded by Pete Rose, Johnny Bench, Tony Perez, etc, but you can't ignore the overall batting average numbers that he had going into his late 20s. I know that Houston was a hitter's nightmare, but that doesn't explain everything.

 

I'd put Joe Morgan at the top of the 3rd tier along with Roberto Alomar and Jackie Robinson.

 

There's a pretty huge dropoff after the top 8 in Horsnby, Collins, Lajoie, Gehringer, Joe Morgan, Roberto Alomar, Jackie Robinson, and Rod Carew.

 

And yes, I have Craig Biggio and Frankie Frisch ahead of Ryne Sandberg.

[hammerhead johnson]

It should also be noted that 2B is a very important defensive position, but it isn't anywhere near as crucial as SS, CF, or C. It's right there with 3B.

 

So yeah, while Nap Lajoie was a defensive butcher, and Rogers Hornsby was nothing special with the glove, it shouldn't factor into the conversation as much as it would if we were talking about legendary shortstops. I wouldn't use Ozzie Smith's batting average against him, basically. With the amount of runs he saved, it doesn't matter.

[Steff]

If you count number of times whining about money in the media or if you could somehow quantify causing problems in the clubhouse he'd be right on top of the heap.

 

 

How's things in Toronto going? Oh wait...........

 

 

 

Frank did love to b**** about how he did NOT go elsewhere for more $$ and stayed with the Sox out of loyalty and love of the management. Damn him.

 

As for clubhouse problems... I'm still waiting on an actual quote to validate that one. It seems every time a FT thread pops up someone posts about how horrible he was in the clubhouse yet it's never confirmed. You'd think for what a s*** he is supposed to have been there would be some shred of evidence.

[greasywheels121]

Frank did love to b**** about how he did NOT go elsewhere for more $$ and stayed with the Sox out of loyalty and love of the management. Damn him.

 

As for clubhouse problems... I'm still waiting on an actual quote to validate that one. It seems every time a FT thread pops up someone posts about how horrible he was in the clubhouse yet it's never confirmed. You'd think for what a s*** he is supposed to have been there would be some shred of evidence.

 

Good to have you back.