2B Thoughts

[AddisonStSox]

What's stopping this club from putting Ramirez at 2B as the team's starting second baseman? Uribe is a proven commodity. He's going to give you a cannon for an arm (and I'd say average to slightly above-average range at 2B), but is one of the most frustrating hitters in all of baseball. By all accounts, he is an excellent clubhouse influence (and a favorite of the team's Latino players and coaching staff), but simply isn't producing. Having seen players making twice as much money as him (Frank Thomas) get cut, there is no reason to hang on to him simply for his $4.5M salary--if not comfortable cutting him and getting no return, use him as a utility infielder at both middle infield positions...the bat will never be there, but he would be one of the better utility players in the AL.

 

So, I ask you, why not make the transition to Ramirez now? If Williams and co. are serious about locking up O. Cabrera long-term at the SS position, why not move Ramirez to 2B right now? He clearly has the highest ceiling of all the organization's viable 2B candidates and I have been completely impressed with his approach at the plate. He looks the part.

 

Is it a matter of defense? For those of you that watched a lot of spring training or are simply more familiar with the "Cuban Missile," is he simply not ready to play Major League quality 2B? What's the rub on this?

 

If it is simply a matter of defense, I would also endorse sending Ramirez down to Charlotte to learn the position when Richar is healthy. I just think having an automatic out anywhere in the lineup really hurts a ballclub, and with this team in a position to contend for the AL Central Division crown, there is no reason to let a guy like Uribe torpedo a team's chances.

 

The offense is good...it could be better.

 

Your thoughts on the White Sox 2B situation?

[rangercal]

What's stopping this club from putting Ramirez at 2B as the team's starting second baseman? Uribe is a proven commodity. He's going to give you a cannon for an arm (and I'd say average to slightly above-average range at 2B), but is one of the most frustrating hitters in all of baseball. By all accounts, he is an excellent clubhouse influence (and a favorite of the team's Latino players and coaching staff), but simply isn't producing. Having seen players making twice as much money as him (Frank Thomas) get cut, there is no reason to hang on to him simply for his $4.5M salary--if not comfortable cutting him and getting no return, use him as a utility infielder at both middle infield positions...the bat will never be there, but he would be one of the better utility players in the AL.

 

So, I ask you, why not make the transition to Ramirez now? If Williams and co. are serious about locking up O. Cabrera long-term at the SS position, why not move Ramirez to 2B right now? He clearly has the highest ceiling of all the organization's viable 2B candidates and I have been completely impressed with his approach at the plate. He looks the part.

 

Is it a matter of defense? For those of you that watched a lot of spring training or are simply more familiar with the "Cuban Missile," is he simply not ready to play Major League quality 2B? What's the rub on this?

 

If it is simply a matter of defense, I would also endorse sending Ramirez down to Charlotte to learn the position when Richar is healthy. I just think having an automatic out anywhere in the lineup really hurts a ballclub, and with this team in a position to contend for the AL Central Division crown, there is no reason to let a guy like Uribe torpedo a team's chances.

 

The offense is good...it could be better.

 

Your thoughts on the White Sox 2B situation?

 

Uribe is ranked # 4 in MLB in range factor http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...umn=rangeFactor

[iamshack]

I don't know how many other ways there are to say this....but the fortunes of this team do not depend on what Juan Uribe does at the plate.

[rangercal]

I don't know how many other ways there are to say this....but the fortunes of this team do not depend on what Juan Uribe does at the plate.

 

Only When he carries this team for long stretches

[southsideirish71]

What's stopping this club from putting Ramirez at 2B as the team's starting second baseman? Uribe is a proven commodity. He's going to give you a cannon for an arm (and I'd say average to slightly above-average range at 2B), but is one of the most frustrating hitters in all of baseball. By all accounts, he is an excellent clubhouse influence (and a favorite of the team's Latino players and coaching staff), but simply isn't producing. Having seen players making twice as much money as him (Frank Thomas) get cut, there is no reason to hang on to him simply for his $4.5M salary--if not comfortable cutting him and getting no return, use him as a utility infielder at both middle infield positions...the bat will never be there, but he would be one of the better utility players in the AL.

 

So, I ask you, why not make the transition to Ramirez now? If Williams and co. are serious about locking up O. Cabrera long-term at the SS position, why not move Ramirez to 2B right now? He clearly has the highest ceiling of all the organization's viable 2B candidates and I have been completely impressed with his approach at the plate. He looks the part.

 

Is it a matter of defense? For those of you that watched a lot of spring training or are simply more familiar with the "Cuban Missile," is he simply not ready to play Major League quality 2B? What's the rub on this?

 

If it is simply a matter of defense, I would also endorse sending Ramirez down to Charlotte to learn the position when Richar is healthy. I just think having an automatic out anywhere in the lineup really hurts a ballclub, and with this team in a position to contend for the AL Central Division crown, there is no reason to let a guy like Uribe torpedo a team's chances.

 

The offense is good...it could be better.

 

Your thoughts on the White Sox 2B situation?

 

I don't think they are trying to lock up Ocab for a long time. I think they were more interested in his possible Class A rankings as a free agent than anything else.

 

If they are waiting for Richar then sure, wait the time. But I agree that we need to replace Uribe at some point. If Ramirez is slotted to be our SS then he should be in the minors getting bats every single day. Having Ramirez rot on the bench for a one day a week 3 ABs is a waste of his development.

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

I also think any upgrade you may see at all from Alexei to Uribe will be more than cancelled out in the difference defensively between the two of them. Whether Juan Uribe is great, good, or average defensively doesn't matter to me because of how shaky Ramirez is defensively.

 

Personally, I'd say let Juan stick at 2B for now with Alexei and Pablo getting starts here and there; if Uribe doesn't improve himself by the time Richar is ready in say June, I'd say call him up and give him a look. If the entire group struggles, I'd say do your best to go out and make a move for a 2Bman, whether that's Brian Roberts or any other number of 2Bman.

[chitownsportsfan]

Why does anyone think the missile would be better than Uribe overall? Granted Uribe sucks at the plate, but he's also a known commodity defensively -- a good defensive player. Ramirez is not ready to play league average defense at 2B and his bat, at least until he sees more PA, isn't going to be much better than the torpedo boat.

 

Our best option is to ride Uribe out until Richar is healthy and re-evaulate at that point. I'd be in favor of bringing up Richar and sending Ramirez down to Charlotte. Let Ramirez get a season full of playing time in the states and let Uribe and Richar battle it out for 2B. I'd give preference to Richar with Uribe spelling him every 3rd day or so.

[striker]

I hate Uribe. Hate him. But if we are winning right now then you might as well leave it be. If Richar heats up then bring him up, send Ramirez down and see if Richar can out perform Uribe.

 

If Uribe would end the season with a .250 average and 500 ABs then he would have to hit .263 for the next 440 ABs which isn't bad for a # 9 hitter. We'll see if he can hit .250 though.

 

I would like to see some Uribe quotes back when we traded for OCab. He was so mad then, and now he is really proving himself.

[AddisonStSox]

I contend that if given the same number of ABs, Ramirez's offensive production will be equal to or greater than that of Uribe--ditto for the course of an entire season.

 

Hence, my question, is the difference in defensive ability so great that it merits the continued start of Uribe at 2B over the organization's other internal options?

 

In my estimation, it is not.

 

(For the record, Williams went on record as saying they were looking to lock-up Cabrera with a long-term extension. This all rests on the presupposition that Cabrera will be the SS for 2008 and beyond. It may have been posturing on the part of Williams. In any event, Uribe should not figure into this team's (or, any other team, for that matter) long-term plans.)

[Chisoxfn]

I don't think they are trying to lock up Ocab for a long time. I think they were more interested in his possible Class A rankings as a free agent than anything else.

 

If they are waiting for Richar then sure, wait the time. But I agree that we need to replace Uribe at some point. If Ramirez is slotted to be our SS then he should be in the minors getting bats every single day. Having Ramirez rot on the bench for a one day a week 3 ABs is a waste of his development.

The thing is, the Sox have absolutely nothing at SS, unless they truly believe in Ramirez and right now while I see some tools I think it is far too early to pencil in Ramirez as a SS of the future. I'd consider him a role player of the future with the upside to turn into a starter (but why he can't end up being a 2B is beyond me, because I don't think he's even close to being ready to be a major league starting shortstop, defensively speaking).

 

I think the Sox would be more than happy to give OC a 2-3 year deal, the problem is OC is probably looking more at a 4 year deal (which would be a risky deal since he's already getting older and the more steps he loses the less valuable he becomes since his best asset is his defense).

[chitownsportsfan]

The thing is, the Sox have absolutely nothing at SS, unless they truly believe in Ramirez and right now while I see some tools I think it is far too early to pencil in Ramirez as a SS of the future. I'd consider him a role player of the future with the upside to turn into a starter (but why he can't end up being a 2B is beyond me, because I don't think he's even close to being ready to be a major league starting shortstop, defensively speaking).

 

I think the Sox would be more than happy to give OC a 2-3 year deal, the problem is OC is probably looking more at a 4 year deal (which would be a risky deal since he's already getting older and the more steps he loses the less valuable he becomes since his best asset is his defense).

 

 

What's going to be available on the 08/09 FA market for SS? You're right, the Sox have NOTHING here. Ramirez is not going to be ready (if ever), Uribe should not be starting anywhere near a good team, and OCab is not the long term answer and the Sox would be best served letting him walk and getting the sandwich pick.

 

It's going to be another rough offseason trying to figure out the SS spot.

[Melissa1334]

It's going to be another rough offseason trying to figure out the SS spot.

ronny cedeno they have theriot

 

 

i dont think alexei is ready to play everyday, i just dont think he'll hit. i would like to see richar take over at 2b because he wasnt that bad last yr. but he needs to get healthy first

Edited April 21, 2008 by Melissa1334

[Kalapse]

What's going to be available on the 08/09 FA market for SS? You're right, the Sox have NOTHING here. Ramirez is not going to be ready (if ever), Uribe should not be starting anywhere near a good team, and OCab is not the long term answer and the Sox would be best served letting him walk and getting the sandwich pick.

 

It's going to be another rough offseason trying to figure out the SS spot.

After this year you're looking at Furcal, Eckstein and maybe Renteria ($11M TO for '09) at short and Mark Ellis at 2B. After the '09 season Bobby Crosby, Khalil Greene, Miguel Tejada and probably Jack Wilson ($8.4M TO) will be Free agents at SS and at 2B DeRosa, Polanco, Roberts, Scutaro, Iwamura ($4.25M TO) and maybe Freddy Sanchez ($8M TO.) Though a few of these guys could get new deals by then (Greene and Roberts being prime candidates to get new contracts before they hit the market.)

[max power]

Uribe is ranked # 4 in MLB in range factor http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...umn=rangeFactor

So was iguchi last year. Not sure I trust that noise.

[rangercal]

ronny cedeno they have theriot

 

 

i dont think alexei is ready to play everyday, i just dont think he'll hit. i would like to see richar take over at 2b because he wasnt that bad last yr. but he needs to get healthy first

 

yuck! Cedano is a career .250 hitter and .282 obp. That .634 Ops would make a grown man cry. If he keeps up his 2008 pace in part time duty then maybe....

[chitownsportsfan]

 

Just realized how bad Furcal's 2007 was: OPS+ of 76. For only 13 million! Christ, makes Uribe look like a diamond in the rough.

[the People's Champ]

What's stopping this club from putting Ramirez at 2B as the team's starting second baseman?

 

Two words:

 

THE CURVEBALL

[lostfan]

So was iguchi last year. Not sure I trust that noise.

Bahaha I just looked up Jeter from last year for my own amusement (I know he is a below average SS) and he is next to last.

[max power]

Bahaha I just looked up Jeter from last year for my own amusement (I know he is a below average SS) and he is next to last.

lol, I really hate that guy. To uribe's credit he was 4th last year at 2nd base. I just don't trust fielding stats. I trust what I see.

[RockRaines]

Im not so sure Alexei is an upgrade offensively.

[Chisoxfn]

Just want to point out that Furcal did have a bad year but he is an absolute stud and if he keeps going at the rate he's doing this year he'll be in line for a nice fat, longer term deal.

 

On a sidenote, I would absolutely love to get the draft picks and than give one of those picks right back for signing Furcal (if the money was right). I say that because Furcal is a better long term move than OC. Again though, at the rate he's going any team in need of a SS will be willing to throw a good deal of cash his way.

[Balta1701]

Just want to point out that Furcal did have a bad year but he is an absolute stud and if he keeps going at the rate he's doing this year he'll be in line for a nice fat, longer term deal.

 

On a sidenote, I would absolutely love to get the draft picks and than give one of those picks right back for signing Furcal (if the money was right). I say that because Furcal is a better long term move than OC. Again though, at the rate he's going any team in need of a SS will be willing to throw a good deal of cash his way.

Just based on what we saw in the spring, I'd honestly much rather give Alexei the chance to succeed or fail at that position for a year than sign someone for big money to play that spot.

 

But of course, the only way I want that done is if we play this season with that in mind. In other words, he needs at bats somewhere.

[letsgoarow]

I feel like we have this conversation every day... I say send The missile down.

 

How bout we dh for uribe and let the pitcher hit?

[Chisoxfn]

Just based on what we saw in the spring, I'd honestly much rather give Alexei the chance to succeed or fail at that position for a year than sign someone for big money to play that spot.

 

But of course, the only way I want that done is if we play this season with that in mind. In other words, he needs at bats somewhere.

If Ramirez played SS for a full season we'd probably see him crush the major league record for errors in a season. He is that bad defensively over there. That isn't to say he doens't have the tools to be a league average defensive shortstop, but he isn't anywhere close to being ready for that position.

 

Put it this way, a team that is so called built on pitching would be making a massive, massive mistake going with Ramirez as an everyday SS. I'm talking massive. If we thought it sucked watching Mack in CF, just wait till you have to see a full season worth of Ramirez at SS. I don't even think he could be a league average defensive 2nd baseman right now (and 2nd is not a difficult position).

 

Kendry Morales is two to three times the player Ramirez was down in Cuba (and very talented) and he was supposed to be near ML ready and it still took him a good amount of time before he hit the majors (and in his case he's a bit stuck given the Angels depth). Morales also had a lot more people watching him and a lot more people going after him (not that it is the end all be all, but it is pretty rare for every exec out there to be wrong on a guy; Ramirez has talent, but he isn't near major league ready and I was pleasantly surprised by his spring but it is actually been a disservice to him because he'd be better suited playing full time in AA or AAA.

Stick Ramirez down in AAA, give him a full season, and maybe, you can consider it, but the odds are really against it. I hate to be a realist here but the guy is very raw, despite his age and while the cuban league has some good players it really is s*** compared to the good college leagues and the higher levels of the minors (in fact, some stacked lower level minor league teams are better than the Cuban teams as the talent there has tapered off a bit).

[heirdog]

After this year you're looking at Furcal, Eckstein and maybe Renteria ($11M TO for '09) at short and Mark Ellis at 2B. After the '09 season Bobby Crosby, Khalil Greene, Miguel Tejada and probably Jack Wilson ($8.4M TO) will be Free agents at SS and at 2B DeRosa, Polanco, Roberts, Scutaro, Iwamura ($4.25M TO) and maybe Freddy Sanchez ($8M TO.) Though a few of these guys could get new deals by then (Greene and Roberts being prime candidates to get new contracts before they hit the market.)

 

 

Who knows, he may be 45 by then.