Owens and Richar

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I don't understand how anyone could think Owens hit reasonably well. He was abysmal.

 

I understand he may not be the best player in the world but considering he hit .284 in Charlotte before his callup, .267 on the year for Chicago, .278 post-ASB, and .340 in september, i wouldnt exactly call that abysmal.

[witesoxfan]

Brian also has over 2700 fewer career ABs than Uribe (Brian only has 442 career ABs.) Juan is the proven commodity at this point while Brian is the 26 year old former first round pick with the potential to be a Torii Hunter type player if it someday clicks for him. If Brian ever fulfills his potential he'll without a doubt be a more valuable baseball player than Owens (in my opinion at least) it's just a matter of getting his ABs and making the most of the opportunity. He played well over the final 3 games of the Baltimore series, hopefully he can build on that.

 

That may be your opinion, but it's a fact too, unless Owens somehow develops power AND starts hitting .330.

 

I understand he may not be the best player in the world but considering he hit .284 in Charlotte before his callup, .267 on the year for Chicago, .278 post-ASB, and .340 in september, i wouldnt exactly call that abysmal.

 

Jerry Owens had the worst OPS out of any player on the White Sox roster last year with 300 ABs or more, and the only player with 200 PAs or more that was worse than him was Andy Gonzalez.

 

I don't care that he was a rookie. He has limited upside - probably a .700 OPS - and he had the highest batting average out of any of the s***ty players the Sox had last year. Hell, Owens had the 3rd highest average on the team and he was still that bad. He seriously has to hit like .320-.340 to be a good hitter, because if he hit .300 he would still have probably have an OPS around .700, and without 50-60 stolen bases, that's just not that valuable.

 

The White Sox have absolutely no use for Jerry Owens when they have 4 outfielders on the MLB roster who are much, much more talented then him and a 5th who can play outfield too who has more talent. I don't want to go ahead and say that Jerry Owens will not be in the White Sox organization by the end of the year, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least.

[WCSox]

Jerry Owens had the worst OPS out of any player on the White Sox roster last year with 300 ABs or more, and the only player with 200 PAs or more that was worse than him was Andy Gonzalez.

 

I realize that you hate Owens, but your OPS argument is silly. OPS isn't terribly important for a base-stealing leadoff-hitter. OBP is a lot more important for somebody with his skill set. And Owens got on enough to amass 32 steals in just 356 ABs last year. IMO, he needs to get that OBP up close to .350 to hit in the leadoff spot, but it's not like he's that far away.

 

And speaking of OPS, Anderson is about .637. Not very good for a guy who is supposed to be the next Torii Hunter. I like that Ozzie is giving him more at-bats now, but he needs to start getting on base.

Edited April 29, 2008 by WCSox

[Kalapse]

I realize that you hate Owens, but your OPS argument is silly. OPS isn't terribly important for a base-stealing leadoff-hitter. OBP is a lot more important for somebody with his skill set. And Owens got on enough to amass 32 steals in just 356 ABs last year. IMO, he needs to get that OBP up close to .350 to hit in the leadoff spot, but it's not like he's that far away.

 

And speaking of OPS, Anderson is about .637. Not very good for a guy who is supposed to be the next Torii Hunter. I like that Ozzie is giving him more at-bats now, but he needs to start getting on base.

Well he did reach base 3 times yesterday.

 

Also in Anderson's defense that .637 OPS was put up over 442 sporadic ABs. hell the rule of thumb is that you can't fully evaluate a hitter until he gets to 800 ABs so he's about half way there.

 

And just because a hitter is fast doesn't mean he shouldn't be expected to pick up extra base hits. That's all OPS is, a combination of how often you get on base and how often you're getting yourself beyond first base via the basehit. So if Owens put up a .340 OBP, stole 48 bases out of 58 and slugged .320 that would be acceptable? That's not a very productive offensive player.

[WCSox]

And just because a hitter is fast doesn't mean he shouldn't be expected to pick up extra base hits. That's all OPS is, a combination of how often you get on base and how often you're getting yourself beyond first base via the basehit. So if Owens put up a .340 OBP, stole 48 bases out of 58 and slugged .320 that would be acceptable? That's not a very productive offensive player.

 

If he steals 48 bases, his slugging percentage omits the fact that he's effectively turned 48 singles into extra-base hits.

 

There's nothing wrong with an above-average OBP slap-hitter at the top of one's lineup IF he's a proficient base-stealer. Pods slugged .349 in '05 and he was most certainly a "productive offensive player" prior to the groin injury.

 

[Balta1701]

If he steals 48 bases, his slugging percentage omits the fact that he's effectively turned 48 singles into extra-base hits.

 

There's nothing wrong with an above-average OBP slap-hitter at the top of one's lineup IF he's a proficient base-stealer. Pods slugged .349 in '05 and he was most certainly a "productive offensive player" prior to the groin injury.

But on the other hand, if he steals 48/58, his slugging omits the fact that he's turned 48 singles in to extra base hits, but his OBP also omits the fact that he's lost 10 other singles due to being thrown out.

[Kalapse]

A SB is not equal to 1 base. You can drive a guy in from first on a double, the same can not be said for a single and a SB. A SB is roughly equal to 3/4 of a base. Plus you have to subtract 1 base for every caught stealing, meaning those 10 CS negate 10 singles.

 

 

In '05 Pods had a ~.370 OBP and 44 SB over 282 ABs in the first half of the season, that's going to make up some for a .344 SLG. Even then he only ended up scoring 80 runs that season.

[Balta1701]

In '05 Pods had a ~.370 OBP and 44 SB over 282 ABs in the first half of the season, that's going to make up some for a .344 SLG. Even then he only ended up scoring 80 runs that season.

 

In '05 Pods had a ~.370 OBP and 44 SB over 282 ABs in the first half of the season, that's going to make up some for a .344 SLG. Even then he only ended up scoring 80 runs that season.

To be fair again...Carl Everett was batting 3rd most of the year.

[Kalapse]

To be fair again...Carl Everett was batting 3rd most of the year.

So instead of being capable of driving himself in every once in a while he's relying 100% on the guys behind him to knock him in. Also, instead of getting himself to second or third via the 2B or 3B he's forcing the guys behind him to take 1-3 pitches just so he can get to 2B.

[witesoxfan]

I realize that you hate Owens, but your OPS argument is silly. OPS isn't terribly important for a base-stealing leadoff-hitter. OBP is a lot more important for somebody with his skill set. And Owens got on enough to amass 32 steals in just 356 ABs last year. IMO, he needs to get that OBP up close to .350 to hit in the leadoff spot, but it's not like he's that far away.

 

And speaking of OPS, Anderson is about .637. Not very good for a guy who is supposed to be the next Torii Hunter. I like that Ozzie is giving him more at-bats now, but he needs to start getting on base.

 

OPS isn't the most important stat for a leadoff hitter - that doesn't mean it's irrelevant. The example I always love to use is Luis Castillo...career .294 hitter, career .368 OBP. You'd assume he'd be a fantastic leadoff hitter, but the truth is because his OPS was so mediocre throughout his career (and partly due to weak Florida lineups), he only scored 100 runs one time; it just so happened to be the year he also the year he had the highest OPS of his career.

 

OPS, seemingly more than anything else, has a direct correlation to runs scored.

 

If Owens is busy putting up .675-.700 OPS's but stealing 50 bases and getting on at a .350 clip, the Sox still won't score many runs because he'll be caught stealing a few times and that will negate a few of the times he was on base. Add to it that he's a completely one-dimensional player, and he just doesn't have much use to the Sox.

 

I also don't quite understand the shot at Anderson. Hunter put up about a .680 OPS in his first 500 PAs, and he was essentially given the CF job because of how bad the Twins were at that time. Anderson has had to fight and scrap for every bit of playing time he's had outside of April and May of 2006. I think he's going to be just fine at the plate.

[WCSox]

So instead of being capable of driving himself in every once in a while he's relying 100% on the guys behind him to knock him in. Also, instead of getting himself to second or third via the 2B or 3B he's forcing the guys behind him to take 1-3 pitches just so he can get to 2B.

 

Since when is a high OPS guy like Swisher the prototypical leadoff hitter? I'd rather knock him back a spot to drive in a guy who has a good chance of getting on base and in scoring position. And since when is the second guy in the order take 1-3 pitches before the leadoff hitter is able to steal second a horrendous negative?

 

Leadoff hitters are supposed to get on base for the high SLG hitters to drive in. Whether they get into scoring position via doubles or a combination of singles and stolen bases is irrelevant, as the end result is essentially the same. Being able to distract the opposing pitcher with a base-stealing threat is also an intangible benefit.

 

[WCSox]

Add to it that he's a completely one-dimensional player, and he just doesn't have much use to the Sox.

 

No, a one-dimensional player is Brian Anderson. Defense and jack squat after that. At least Owens can make contact with the ball. Anderson is sporting about a 1:3 BB:K ratio.

 

[elrockinMT]

I think that Owens is still a possibility, but a long shot to be called up right now. He would only platoon with BA. I do think that Ramirez needs time in the minors so the question would be who to call up to repalce him - Owens or Richar?

[elrockinMT]

No, a one-dimensional player is Brian Anderson. Defense and jack squat after that. At least Owens can make contact with the ball. Anderson is sporting about a 1:3 BB:K ratio.

 

I think you are just angry over his failed bunt on Monday. I saw the replay and I don't know if he could have bunted that ball or not. Maybe foul it off is the best he could have done-maybe. I really think the decision should have been to let BA swing away for a fly ball rbi. But, that is not criticizing Ozzie's choice of strategy either.

[Balta1701]

I think that Owens is still a possibility, but a long shot to be called up right now. He would only platoon with BA. I do think that Ramirez needs time in the minors so the question would be who to call up to repalce him - Owens or Richar?

When Danny is healthy, given that Anderson hasn't been that bad in the few chances he's gotten in the OF and is an excellent defensive option out there, and the weakest point in our offense so far has been 2nd base, Richar is the obvious candidate, as it sets up a platoon that might help us get more performance out of that slot.

 

If you send down Ramirez and bring up Owens, you add some speed to your bench, but you hurt your infield depth, as Pablo becomes the only person who can back up 3 positions (Richar could play SS in a pinch if everything went wrong). With Quentin, Dye, Anderson, and Swisher in the OF, and Pablo as an emergency backup out there, I think we're set on OF depth without JO, the only thing he'd bring us is more pinch running (and fewer at bats for BA).

[witesoxfan]

Since when is a high OPS guy like Swisher the prototypical leadoff hitter? I'd rather knock him back a spot to drive in a guy who has a good chance of getting on base and in scoring position. And since when is the second guy in the order take 1-3 pitches before the leadoff hitter is able to steal second a horrendous negative?

 

Leadoff hitters are supposed to get on base for the high SLG hitters to drive in. Whether they get into scoring position via doubles or a combination of singles and stolen bases is irrelevant, as the end result is essentially the same. Being able to distract the opposing pitcher with a base-stealing threat is also an intangible benefit.

 

When did I ever say a high OPS guy is a prototypical leadoff hitter? I'm not advocating Thome as the next leadoff man, but that seems to be what you think I'm saying by that.

 

I also find stolen bases, while valuable in certain regards, should not be put into the lineup over a superior player. Within the next year and a half, there will be no room at all for Jerry Owens on the roster, barring two injuries (which would include Thome, Dye, Swisher, Anderson, and Quentin); by that time, he'll be like 29 and probably off the roster because of young players coming up and a lack of options. The only way Owens would make the roster is if Anderson were moved, and I'd absolutely hate to see Anderson moved to make room for Owens.

 

I'm really done with this debate...the perfect leadoff hitter for this club would be Brian Roberts. He's not Manny Ramirez or Barry Bonds or Jim Thome or some other dude who's led the league in OPS. I'm not advocating that. I'm saying you shouldn't be a leadoff hitter simply because you can get on base. If you can't hit a lick of power, you should be a 4th OF or in the minor leagues. Henceforth, he is known as Jerry Owens.

[RockRaines]

Best lead-off hitters started with a high OBP. Thats the number 1 factor of a good lead off hitter.

 

Tim Raines career .385 OBP in his peak years he was always around .400, he also hit alot of doubles and stole a TON of bases. Career SLG .425

Ricky Henderson career .401 OBP his last few down years really hurt his career numbers, but he was almost always above .400. Career SLG .419 avg 27 doubles per season

Kenny Lofton career .372 OBP. his peak years in Cle he was always .360-.412 Career SLG .423

 

 

 

Or you could be from the same camp as Joe Morgan and mention players like Juan Pierre

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/morgan_joe/1369981.html

[Frankensteiner]

I'd much rather have Owens than Anderson up here right now. Anderson is a better defender but the difference isn't so great as to cancel out Owens' advantage with the bat and his ability as a base stealing threat. Plus Owens is a lefty and we need another left-handed hitter on the bench.

[WCSox]

If you can't hit a lick of power, you should be a 4th OF or in the minor leagues. Henceforth, he is known as Jerry Owens.

 

If you can't make contact with ML pitching, you should be a 4th OF or in the minor leagues. Henceforth, he is known as Brian Anderson.

 

I don't see how Anderson is an upgrade over Owens. Not that Owens is a definite ML starter at this point (or even deserving of a roster spot), but he's closer than Anderson right now, IMO. I'm glad that Ozzie is giving Anderson at-bats right now and I hope that he morphs from a strikeout machine into an .850 OPS guy down the road. His recent series was encouraging, so we'll see what happens.

 

I think you are just angry over his failed bunt on Monday.

 

No, I'm angry at Ozzie for calling that play with somebody who struggles to make contact with the ball. That's a play that you implement with Ozuna or somebody else who knows how to bunt. Not Anderson.

Edited April 29, 2008 by WCSox

[RockRaines]

I'd much rather have Owens than Anderson up here right now. Anderson is a better defender but the difference isn't so great as to cancel out Owens' advantage with the bat and his ability as a base stealing threat. Plus Owens is a lefty and we need another left-handed hitter on the bench.

Probably true, but BA's ceiling is much higher than Owens, and he showed flashes of it this spring. If he hits like he showed he can hit, he's much more valuable to the team.

[Lemon_44]

Probably true, but BA's ceiling is much higher than Owens, and he showed flashes of it this spring. If he hits like he showed he can hit, he's much more valuable to the team.

i agree that BA probably has a higher ceiling. But they've both had about 3/4 a year worth of playing time at the ML level and,to me, Owens has shown more. Plus, Owens showed improvement when he got his second chance. Anderson still looks pretty much like the same guy as when he first came up. He's a bit better but still looks overmatched most of the time while Owens looked way overmatched then ,i thought, looked respectable and could continue to develop into a solid contributor.

[RockRaines]

i agree that BA probably has a higher ceiling. But they've both had about 3/4 a year worth of playing time at the ML level and,to me, Owens has shown more. Plus, Owens showed improvement when he got his second chance. Anderson still looks pretty much like the same guy as when he first came up. He's a bit better but still looks overmatched most of the time while Owens looked way overmatched then ,i thought, looked respectable and could continue to develop into a solid contributor.

Brian looks like a different player to me. More patient, better eye, and shorter swing.

[WCSox]

Brian looks like a different player to me. More patient, better eye, and shorter swing.

 

Compared to '06, yeah. I'd like to see Ozzie give him more at-bats. Uribe can grab some bench so that we don't have automatic outs in both the 8th and 9th spots in the order.

 

[witesoxfan]

i agree that BA probably has a higher ceiling. But they've both had about 3/4 a year worth of playing time at the ML level and,to me, Owens has shown more. Plus, Owens showed improvement when he got his second chance. Anderson still looks pretty much like the same guy as when he first came up. He's a bit better but still looks overmatched most of the time while Owens looked way overmatched then ,i thought, looked respectable and could continue to develop into a solid contributor.

 

I completely disagree, especially having seen Brian this year.

[WCSox]

I completely disagree, especially having seen Brian this year.

 

Given that Anderson's career (and current) OBP is still well below .300, he has absolutely not shown more than Owens offensively. While he has more upside than Owens, he has yet to tap that potential and is in the neighborhood of a Uribe-like automatic out.

Edited April 29, 2008 by WCSox