cwsox Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 by the way, MB keeps winning game after game - hell' end with a damn good record after all is said and down - as some of us said, it was just a typical pitcher slump which happens to all the great ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 He is a STUD and our ACE, there's no doubt about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Fainter Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 MB flat knows how top pitch, but he needs a good infield defense, which is better than it used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 by the way, MB keeps winning game after game - hell' end with a damn good record after all is said and down - as some of us said, it was just a typical pitcher slump which happens to all the great ones Im a MB fan, and with you to a point on this one, but he is NOT a great pitcher and that type of slump does NOT happen to the great ones. I dont recall, in the history of my watching baseball, seeing a great pitcher at 2-10. Mb is a good pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Will finish at least 16-15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Slumps happen; he didn't pitch like Ritchie in many of those losses. He's young and he is a stud. Roman, Roman, lend me your ear ... please comment on Mark B. now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted July 7, 2003 Author Share Posted July 7, 2003 Slumps happen; he didn't pitch like Ritchie in many of those losses. He's young and he is a stud. yeah, slumps happen. I can think of any number of highly regarded pitchers who were down 8 games at some point in a career - I saw his worst performace of the year (IMHO, against SF) and I saw him win 39 in essentially 2.5 seasons and now he has pulled off 5 straight wins - one can argue whether is good, very good, great, or whatever terminolgy one wants, but the guy is one total gamer and never gets rattled, one of the coolest even-keeled pitchers I have ever seen. I have nothing but admiration for him. I could list a whole bunch of very highly regarded pitchers who haven't achieved 46 victories in the time span that he has - and I'd get ripped for daring comparing him to others and told that wins don't mean anything, yada yada yada. That 5-1 quick game victory over the Twins at Minnesota was the work of an ace who helped his team get back home in a good place emotionally and rested for an important, strenuous home series. That to me encapsulates what MB is all about. Yeah he struggled and yeah he has rebounded beautifully. While Loiza has been our best pitcher this season, MB to me is still our ace and has certainly made a far better case as the season has moved along than, say, Colon. MB, you rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Im a MB fan, and with you to a point on this one, but he is NOT a great pitcher and that type of slump does NOT happen to the great ones. I dont recall, in the history of my watching baseball, seeing a great pitcher at 2-10. Mb is a good pitcher. So Nolan Ryan wasn't a great pitcher?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmookie Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 i hope he keeps it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 So Nolan Ryan wasn't a great pitcher?? Read my post again. If he had a 2-10 start(in his prime), I sure dont remember it. I challenge you to show me he did....Just checked his career stats. Didnt happen. Worst season ever, he was 8-16 but had a 2.76 era. Yeah that was horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 by the way, MB keeps winning game after game - hell' end with a damn good record after all is said and down - as some of us said, it was just a typical pitcher slump which happens to all the great ones TRADE HIM NOW WHILE WE CAN STILL GET PROSPECTS FOR HIM!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Read my post again. If he had a 2-10 start(in his prime), I sure dont remember it. I challenge you to show me he did.... So a 2-10 start is any different than an 8-16 finish? How about Greg Maddux 6-14? Phil Niekro's 12-18? Stever Carlton's 10-19? or his 13-20? Tom Glavine's 7-17? Randy Johnson's 7-13? Walter Johnson's 13-25? No good pitchers in that group at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 So a 2-10 start is any different than an 8-16 finish? How about Greg Maddux 6-14? Phil Niekro's 12-18? Stever Carlton's 10-19? or his 13-20? Tom Glavine's 7-17? Randy Johnson's 7-13? Walter Johnson's 13-25? No good pitchers in that group at all. MB isnt a rookie. Who do you think youre fooling? I challenge you to find a pitcher in the history of baseball(not 1st 2 seasons), who started 2-10 with a high 5 era and you can call a great pitcher. Go ahead, find one. Hell use their 1st 2 seasons, i bet you still cant find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted July 7, 2003 Author Share Posted July 7, 2003 Read my post again. If he had a 2-10 start(in his prime), I sure dont remember it. I challenge you to show me he did....Just checked his career stats. Didnt happen. Worst season ever, he was 8-16 but had a 2.76 era. Yeah that was horrible. the Ryan era was in a different era. MB would have to go 1-6 to equal that Ryan mark, and he won't - his worst season will be far better than that one of Ryan's - plus how many seasons did Ryan lose 16 (or more). It was more than once as I recall... this is not a knock on Ryan at all so don;t go there. This is a comment on how all pitchers have slumps. But just as a math project - I will advance the very stunning proposition that MB at 2-10 was 8 games down and Ryan at 8-16 was 8 games down so what the f*** in hell is the difference between "8" and "8"???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Read my post again. If he had a 2-10 start(in his prime), I sure dont remember it. I challenge you to show me he did....Just checked his career stats. Didnt happen. Worst season ever, he was 8-16 but had a 2.76 era. Yeah that was horrible. You made NO mention of ERA so don't try to qualify your answer. 8-16 and 2-10 are both 8 games under .500 by my math, so who the hell cares if they win them early or late if all we are doing is saying that Mark Buehrle can't be a great pitcher because of his 2-10 record? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 So a 2-10 start is any different than an 8-16 finish? How about Greg Maddux 6-14? Phil Niekro's 12-18? Stever Carlton's 10-19? or his 13-20? Tom Glavine's 7-17? Randy Johnson's 7-13? Walter Johnson's 13-25? No good pitchers in that group at all. And I have a feeling, when all is said and done, barring injury to MB, he will come nowhere near those numbers. A few guys here (me ) even said that when he was 2-10 that he'd finish near (a game or two above or below) or at .500 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 You made NO mention of ERA so don't try to qualify your answer. 8-16 and 2-10 are both 8 games under .500 by my math, so who the hell cares if they win them early or late if all we are doing is saying that Mark Buehrle can't be a great pitcher because of his 2-10 record? I also never asked for a pitchers record at the end of the season, so i guess those two things cancel out huh? Please find a great pitcher who started 2-10.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted July 7, 2003 Author Share Posted July 7, 2003 8-16 and 2-10 are both 8 games under .500 by my math, so who the hell cares if they win them early or late if all we are doing is saying that Mark Buehrle can't be a great pitcher because of his 2-10 record? so you figure 2-10 is as many games under as 8-16 too, huh? It's not just me who comes up with that result? since MB would need to go 1-6 to get a record like Ryan's, I would suggest that while Ryan might not have been "2-10" at any moment, his record was probably worse at points in that season. And I'd rather have a pitcher slump early and recover than end the season at 8 under - but that is just me. Funny that neither you nor I are trying to trash Ryan, just point out the natural slump cycles of all highly regarded pitchers - I think someone is trying to trash MB and I cannot fathom why, can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 so you figure 2-10 is as many games under as 8-16 too, huh? It's not just me who comes up with that result? since MB would need to go 1-6 to get a record like Ryan's, I would suggest that while Ryan might not have been "2-10" at any moment, his record was probably worse at points in that season. And I'd rather have a pitcher slump early and recover than end the season at 8 under - but that is just me. Funny that neither you nor I are trying to trash Ryan, just point out the natural slump cycles of all highly regarded pitchers - I think someone is trying to trash MB and I cannot fathom why, can you? Youre doing nothing but making a fool of yourself. Nolay ryans 8-16 was matched with a below 3 era..........you guys are splitting hairs to try and disprove a point i never made. I said great pitchers dont start 2-10. Who cares how MB or any of the others finished? If you want to hold me to my SPECIFIC point, you must too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 There is no proof to find guys. Great pitchers dont start 2-10, and if they come close to that, its in their rookie season. MB is a good pitcher, a solid pitcher, he is and never will be a great pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 So a 2-10 start is any different than an 8-16 finish? How about Greg Maddux 6-14? Phil Niekro's 12-18? Stever Carlton's 10-19? or his 13-20? Tom Glavine's 7-17? Randy Johnson's 7-13? Walter Johnson's 13-25? No good pitchers in that group at all. MB isnt a rookie. Who do you think youre fooling? I challenge you to find a pitcher in the history of baseball(not 1st 2 seasons), who started 2-10 with a high 5 era and you can call a great pitcher. Go ahead, find one. Hell use their 1st 2 seasons, i bet you still cant find one. Sorry buddy, you can't change your argument. But just for fun, let's look...... Sandy Koufax was 7-13 with a 3.91 ERA (6th season) Phil Niekro was 12-18 with a 4.27 ERA (7th season) Steve Carlton was 10-19 with a 3.73 ERA (6th season) Each of these were in different times where 5 ER's didn't exist. Walter Johnson's 13-25 season was in his 3rd year. The bottom line is that great pitchers can have bad stretches or even years and for you to judge MB completely on his first 12 decisions of this year is idiotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 So a 2-10 start is any different than an 8-16 finish? How about Greg Maddux 6-14? Phil Niekro's 12-18? Stever Carlton's 10-19? or his 13-20? Tom Glavine's 7-17? Randy Johnson's 7-13? Walter Johnson's 13-25? No good pitchers in that group at all. MB isnt a rookie. Who do you think youre fooling? I challenge you to find a pitcher in the history of baseball(not 1st 2 seasons), who started 2-10 with a high 5 era and you can call a great pitcher. Go ahead, find one. Hell use their 1st 2 seasons, i bet you still cant find one. Sorry buddy, you can't change your argument. But just for fun, let's look...... Sandy Koufax was 7-13 with a 3.91 ERA (6th season) Phil Niekro was 12-18 with a 4.27 ERA (7th season) Steve Carlton was 10-19 with a 3.73 ERA (6th season) Each of these were in different times where 5 ER's didn't exist. Walter Johnson's 13-25 season was in his 3rd year. The bottom line is that great pitchers can have bad stretches or even years and for you to judge MB completely on his first 12 decisions of this year is idiotic. When did i change my arguement? Did any of those guys start 2-10? Also, Neikro was not a great pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 so you figure 2-10 is as many games under as 8-16 too, huh? It's not just me who comes up with that result? since MB would need to go 1-6 to get a record like Ryan's, I would suggest that while Ryan might not have been "2-10" at any moment, his record was probably worse at points in that season. And I'd rather have a pitcher slump early and recover than end the season at 8 under - but that is just me. Funny that neither you nor I are trying to trash Ryan, just point out the natural slump cycles of all highly regarded pitchers - I think someone is trying to trash MB and I cannot fathom why, can you? Youre doing nothing but making a fool of yourself. Nolay ryans 8-16 was matched with a below 3 era..........you guys are splitting hairs to try and disprove a point i never made. I said great pitchers dont start 2-10. Who cares how MB or any of the others finished? If you want to hold me to my SPECIFIC point, you must too. You're point is not only stupid but invalid. To take a sample size that small and make the judgement shows how little you know about the game. Your continuance to try to hold onto your point is idiotic. Whether a pitcher starts or finishes 8 games under 500, doesn't matter. So deeming one more important than the other is just dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted July 7, 2003 Author Share Posted July 7, 2003 so you figure 2-10 is as many games under as 8-16 too, huh? It's not just me who comes up with that result? since MB would need to go 1-6 to get a record like Ryan's, I would suggest that while Ryan might not have been "2-10" at any moment, his record was probably worse at points in that season. And I'd rather have a pitcher slump early and recover than end the season at 8 under - but that is just me. Funny that neither you nor I are trying to trash Ryan, just point out the natural slump cycles of all highly regarded pitchers - I think someone is trying to trash MB and I cannot fathom why, can you? Youre doing nothing but making a fool of yourself. Nolay ryans 8-16 was matched with a below 3 era..........you guys are splitting hairs to try and disprove a point i never made. I said great pitchers dont start 2-10. Who cares how MB or any of the others finished? If you want to hold me to my SPECIFIC point, you must too. your point is bullls***. many great pitchers have been 8 (or more) down at a point in a season. Obviously. MB has rebounded from that in the same season - other highly regarded pitchers haven't which is why ended 8 (or more) down. How many seasons did Ryan lose 16 or more? Comparing ERAs across different eras in baseball is difficult because of many circumstances. Ryans 3.something era in that season wasn't that great, although it was good. You want to keep arguing - go on, that is what this forum provides, but you are arguing bulls*** nit picks to create something which I fail to understand. If your sole point is no other picther in human histrory ever started 2-10, I would say odds are there are a few. If you want to slam MB for that, go ahead. But then by your reasoning - and here, stick to specifics - if an 8 down start is so horrid, than a 8 down finish is pathetic and there should be a special category of losers hall of fame for everyone to be trashed who ever finished a season 8 down. Or... rex and I stating that all pitchers have slumps and being 8 down at some point or another is not the end of the world would allow us both to recognise the talent and quality of Ryan and MB and trash no one. Trash no one - could you handle that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 so you figure 2-10 is as many games under as 8-16 too, huh? It's not just me who comes up with that result? since MB would need to go 1-6 to get a record like Ryan's, I would suggest that while Ryan might not have been "2-10" at any moment, his record was probably worse at points in that season. And I'd rather have a pitcher slump early and recover than end the season at 8 under - but that is just me. Funny that neither you nor I are trying to trash Ryan, just point out the natural slump cycles of all highly regarded pitchers - I think someone is trying to trash MB and I cannot fathom why, can you? Youre doing nothing but making a fool of yourself. Nolay ryans 8-16 was matched with a below 3 era..........you guys are splitting hairs to try and disprove a point i never made. I said great pitchers dont start 2-10. Who cares how MB or any of the others finished? If you want to hold me to my SPECIFIC point, you must too. You're point is not only stupid but invalid. To take a sample size that small and make the judgement shows how little you know about the game. Your continuance to try to hold onto your point is idiotic. Whether a pitcher starts or finishes 8 games under 500, doesn't matter. So deeming one more important than the other is just dumb. Thats what 4? 5 personal attacks? My point is not only valid, but obvious, and yet to be unproven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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