Two pitchers, two mysteries

[fathom]

The definitely werent all his fault but a good pitcher doesnt collpase and start getting rocked as soon as his defense makes a bad play or two. Same thing with the 2-0 loss in Toronto, Crede made a 2-out error and Mark just gave up a bunch of hits in a row and that lost the game.

 

And in both situations, Buehrle should have never been pitching to Vlad or Shannon Stewart.

[Controlled Chaos]

The definitely werent all his fault but a good pitcher doesnt collpase and start getting rocked as soon as his defense makes a bad play or two. Same thing with the 2-0 loss in Toronto, Crede made a 2-out error and Mark just gave up a bunch of hits in a row and that lost the game.

Well the thing for me is Mark doesn't have to overcome his D once in a while. So far, I think he has had to overcome it one way or another, in every single start. That is when it becomes hard to just block it out and not try to be perfect.

 

 

[Controlled Chaos]

And in both situations, Buehrle should have never been pitching to Vlad or Shannon Stewart.

I agree and that's a whole different issue.

[LittleHurt05]

Well the thing for me is Mark doesn't have to overcome his D once in a while. So far, I think he has had to overcome it one way or another, in every single start. That is when it becomes hard to just block it out and not try to be perfect.

 

True that, and its much harder to overcome when you are a contact pitcher and cant depend on strikeouts as much to get out of jams.

[Pants Rowland]

Any merit to the comment I heard on the radio that Buehrle showed up out of shape again this year? I know he did the same thing in 2006 and really worked on strengthening his core to post respectable numbers in 2007. I think he needs to be in good shape to maintain the control he is known for.

[Harry Chappas]

Orlando Cabrera had a worse game than Mark Buerhle and as bad a night at he plate as player could have.

 

In 3 at-bats he stranded 8 runners.

 

For a guy that is supposed to be able to handle the bat, that is his worst trait.

 

[Pants Rowland]

Orlando Cabrera had a worse game than Mark Buerhle and as bad a night at he plate as player could have.

 

In 3 at-bats he stranded 8 runners.

 

For a guy that is supposed to be able to handle the bat, that is his worst trait.

 

Seven runs should get you a W.

[lostfan]

The definitely werent all his fault but a good pitcher doesnt collpase and start getting rocked as soon as his defense makes a bad play or two. Same thing with the 2-0 loss in Toronto, Crede made a 2-out error and Mark just gave up a bunch of hits in a row and that lost the game.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't so much absolving Buehrle of any blame so much as he was saying it wasn't "100%" on Buehrle.

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

It's not really news anymore when Buehrle is hit around - it's news when he's effective. He was 12-13 in 2006 for a team that was 18 games over .500. Last year he was 10-9. This year we all know. Signing him last year to that contract was a sentimental mistake, a bad baseball decision.

 

The best you can realistically hope for is that he will be a little over or under .500, sort of a fourth starter, through the end of this contract. And I think he's a great guy, great in the clubhouse, etc. Just not a great pitcher anymore.

[WCSox]

It's not really news anymore when Buehrle is hit around - it's news when he's effective. He was 12-13 in 2006 for a team that was 18 games over .500.

 

... after pitching a ton of extra innings in the 2005 playoffs.

 

Last year he was 10-9.

 

... with a 3.63 ERA and a 1.26 WHIP.

 

This year we all know. Signing him last year to that contract was a sentimental mistake, a bad baseball decision.

 

I completely disagree. Given the bounce-back season he had in '07, given how consistently good he's been in the past, and given that it only took $56 million to sign him, I'd say that it was a pretty low-risk decision and arguably a no-brainer.

 

[Controlled Chaos]

It's not really news anymore when Buehrle is hit around - it's news when he's effective. He was 12-13 in 2006 for a team that was 18 games over .500. Last year he was 10-9. This year we all know. Signing him last year to that contract was a sentimental mistake, a bad baseball decision.

 

The best you can realistically hope for is that he will be a little over or under .500, sort of a fourth starter, through the end of this contract. And I think he's a great guy, great in the clubhouse, etc. Just not a great pitcher anymore.

I'm not really the stat guy here...but shouldn't you check his ERA and not his win total from last year?

[JorgeFabregas]

MB has not been good and it is somewhat worrying. However, please don't point to his record last year. That's such trash. He pitched great last year.

[daa84]

MB has not been good and it is somewhat worrying. However, please don't point to his record last year. That's such trash. He pitched great last year.

yeah W-L is basically one of the least telling stats (no matter what hawk says)

 

even if W-L did matter....10-9 for a team that lost 90 games is quite good actually

Edited May 13, 2008 by daa84

[The Ginger Kid]

i think Buehrle is fine. I think Wasserman has no business in the bigs. Any word on MacDougal?

[Balta1701]

i think Buehrle is fine. I think Wasserman has no business in the bigs. Any word on MacDougal?

Down in Charlotte. Made 4 appearances so far, 2 runs, 3 hits, 8 strikeouts but 4 walks in 4.2 innings so far.

[RockRaines]

Mark's velocity is a problem again, just like it was in '06. If he can hit 88-90 consistently, he's in good shape. If he's throwing 85-87, there isn't enough of a difference between his fastball and his change to keep hitters off balance. And if his command is off with a mid-80's fastball, he's going to get hit hard.

The speed of his fastball has zero to do with his effectiveness.

[Balta1701]

The speed of his fastball has zero to do with his effectiveness.

I disagree with that. I think back when he struggled in 06, the fact that his fastball seemed a little slow was certainly a part of it. The less difference there is between his 4 seamer and his other pitches, the weaker his secondary stuff is. But yeah, the difference between 88 and 91 for him is no where near as big as the difference between nailing a spot and just missing it.

[nitetrain8601]

It's weird to see this whole site on Wasserman's case when they were begging for him to come up. Now all of a sudden he's just a minor league pitcher. Weird.

[Gregory Pratt]

I was always a voice of caution on Wasserman. I admire him very much. He's living the dream. But I suspect he isn't going to stay in the Majors all that long, or be that effective.

[witesoxfan]

I disagree with that. I think back when he struggled in 06, the fact that his fastball seemed a little slow was certainly a part of it. The less difference there is between his 4 seamer and his other pitches, the weaker his secondary stuff is. But yeah, the difference between 88 and 91 for him is no where near as big as the difference between nailing a spot and just missing it.

 

He was also leaving those pitches over the fat part of the plate. That, as much as anything, was the main cause of his inflated ERA.

[ptatc]

I still don't think he is healthy. there's something not quite right. I think he has dropped his arm angle a bit and it's messing with his control. I've looked and tape twice and it seems to vary. I can't pin it to fatigue it might be certain pitches but I can't tell.

[WCSox]

I disagree with that. I think back when he struggled in 06, the fact that his fastball seemed a little slow was certainly a part of it.

 

Just as it's part of Zito's struggles this year. Velocity isn't everything, but a fastball that tops out at 90-91 is a lot more forgiving than one that tops out at 85-86. This is especially so if one's changeup doesn't decrease proportionally.

 

[Vance Law]

He was 12-13 in 2006 for a team that was 18 games over .500. Last year he was 10-9. This year we all know.

 

You are referring to win-loss records for a pitcher. That's rather silly.

[BearSox]

Buehrle's problem has been his drop in velocity. When he had his velocity in the 88-90 range, he was able to get away with more mistakes. An 88-90 mph fastball isn't good, but it can get the job done for lefty pitchers (different story for righties). However, when you can only throw that fastball at 85-86 (once in a while he'll get it up to 87-88), it not only makes more mistakes more hittable, but it also makes your change up and offspeed stuff more hittable.

 

Yeah, I know Buehrle's never been a flamethrower, but you need some velocity. Right now, Jamie Moyer has more velocity than Buehrle. Could this be injury related? Maybe, but I noticed this velocity drop in the 2nd half of last season. As of now, I have a feeling that Buehrle contract will bite us in the ass.

[Kyyle23]

Buehrle's problem has been his drop in velocity. When he had his velocity in the 88-90 range, he was able to get away with more mistakes. An 88-90 mph fastball isn't good, but it can get the job done for lefty pitchers (different story for righties). However, when you can only throw that fastball at 85-86 (once in a while he'll get it up to 87-88), it not only makes more mistakes more hittable, but it also makes your change up and offspeed stuff more hittable.

 

Yeah, I know Buehrle's never been a flamethrower, but you need some velocity. Right now, Jamie Moyer has more velocity than Buehrle. Could this be injury related? Maybe, but I noticed this velocity drop in the 2nd half of last season. As of now, I have a feeling that Buehrle contract will bite us in the ass.

 

Jamie Moyer hasnt had the same velocity as Buehrle since the early 90's Moyer has been at 85 or below for a long time

 

Its location, not velocity for both Moyer and Buehrle. Buehrle may be injured, but he still hit 88-89 a few times the other night and was consistent in the 87-85 range, he just left pitches over the plate.

Edited May 14, 2008 by kyyle23