Two pitchers, two mysteries

[WCSox]

Jamie Moyer hasnt had the same velocity as Buehrle since the early 90's Moyer has been at 85 or below for a long time

 

Its location, not velocity for both Moyer and Buehrle.

 

People like Moyer and Maddux have been successful with mid-'80s fastballs because of their extraordinary command of several pitches, as well as their movement and ability to change speeds. However, pitchers with these skill sets are in a very small minority. There's a reason that, outside of a handfull of knuckleballers, there haven't been very many highly-successful pitchers with batting-practice fastballs.

 

I really hope that Mark is able to consistently hit the upper 80's sometime this summer. Because he doesn't have Maddux-like command of his four pitches.

 

[elrockinMT]

I dont understand where this loss of velocity thing came from, I havent noticed that at all this season. I've noticed that when he gives up little hits the next batters have gotten hanging changeups or rolling cutters which have been crushed. Thats what ive noticed.

 

Wass just has zero control.

 

Buerhle never was fast. It's location and keeping hitters off balance for him. Wasserman should be back in AAA and let's give someone else a shot at the bullpen position.

[Kyyle23]

People like Moyer and Maddux have been successful with mid-'80s fastballs because of their extraordinary command of several pitches, as well as their movement and ability to change speeds. However, pitchers with these skill sets are in a very small minority. There's a reason that, outside of a handfull of knuckleballers, there haven't been very many highly-successful pitchers with batting-practice fastballs.

 

I really hope that Mark is able to consistently hit the upper 80's sometime this summer. Because he doesn't have Maddux-like command of his four pitches.

 

Exactly, location, not velocity. When Buehrle is on, he is getting weak groundouts off the handle, not blowing people away

[WCSox]

Exactly, location, not velocity. When Buehrle is on, he is getting weak groundouts off the handle, not blowing people away

 

I wouldn't completely take velocity out of the equation. If Mark lacks it and he doesn't have Maddux-like command that day, he's going to be far from dominant. He got hammered throughout most of 2006 and it wasn't because his command was terrible.

 

That said, I agree that location is the most important factor. Not only in Mark's case, but for pitchers in general.

 

[JorgeFabregas]

The speed of his fastball has zero to do with his effectiveness.

I remember hearing in 2006 that the scouting reports said that he has lost a few MPH on his fastball, which made his change less effective.

[Kyyle23]

I wouldn't completely take velocity out of the equation. If Mark lacks it and he doesn't have Maddux-like command that day, he's going to be far from dominant. He got hammered throughout most of 2006 and it wasn't because his command was terrible.

 

That said, I agree that location is the most important factor. Not only in Mark's case, but for pitchers in general.

 

Im just not seeing a big enough dip in Marks velocity to name it as the culprit here. He has been consistently 85-88, he just is leaving pitches over the plate when he has his big innings, and he is getting hammered. Even hawk is calling out the hangers "Just a rolling curveball over the heart of the plate".

 

Maybe he is experiencing arm pain and he is changing his arm angle to compensate, and thus giving up control, i dont know. But he is definitely having some issues. The wierd thing is he cruises then has a big, devastating inning, mostly after a bad error. So you can almost point to a concentration issue as well

[WCSox]

Im just not seeing a big enough dip in Marks velocity to name it as the culprit here. He has been consistently 85-88, he just is leaving pitches over the plate when he has his big innings, and he is getting hammered. Even hawk is calling out the hangers "Just a rolling curveball over the heart of the plate".

 

Maybe he is experiencing arm pain and he is changing his arm angle to compensate, and thus giving up control, i dont know. But he is definitely having some issues. The wierd thing is he cruises then has a big, devastating inning, mostly after a bad error. So you can almost point to a concentration issue as well

 

OK, I can mostly agree with that. Mark consistently hit 88-91 a few years ago, but I agree that his fastball isn't as weak as it was two years ago.

 

If he IS experiencing arm fatigue or discomfort, I hope that they shut him down right away.

 

[BearSox]

People really underestimate what a loss in 3-4 mph off of a pitcher's fastball can do. First off, it makes the change a whole lot less effective. The change didn't loose any velocity, it's still the same speed. Whats the point of the change if it's only a 5 mph difference? It also makes mistakes easier to hit as well. Every pitcher makes mistakes, but it's a whole lot easier to get away with mistakes with more zip on the ball. An 86-87 mph fastball is BP. An 88-91 fastball at has the ability to sneak up on hitters.

 

To think 3-4 mph doesn't make a difference on a pitcher, whether that pitcher be a flamethrower or junkballer, is being naive.

[witesoxfan]

People really underestimate what a loss in 3-4 mph off of a pitcher's fastball can do. First off, it makes the change a whole lot less effective. The change didn't loose any velocity, it's still the same speed. Whats the point of the change if it's only a 5 mph difference? It also makes mistakes easier to hit as well. Every pitcher makes mistakes, but it's a whole lot easier to get away with mistakes with more zip on the ball. An 86-87 mph fastball is BP. An 88-91 fastball at has the ability to sneak up on hitters.

 

To think 3-4 mph doesn't make a difference on a pitcher, whether that pitcher be a flamethrower or junkballer, is being naive.

 

What makes a bigger difference is leaving a fastball out of the fat part of the plate. That's the biggest factor of all.

[max power]

If he is hurt they should have him skip a few starts and pull up lance, assuming he is still tearing it up. Is he?

[Kyyle23]

People really underestimate what a loss in 3-4 mph off of a pitcher's fastball can do. First off, it makes the change a whole lot less effective. The change didn't loose any velocity, it's still the same speed. Whats the point of the change if it's only a 5 mph difference? It also makes mistakes easier to hit as well. Every pitcher makes mistakes, but it's a whole lot easier to get away with mistakes with more zip on the ball. An 86-87 mph fastball is BP. An 88-91 fastball at has the ability to sneak up on hitters.

To think 3-4 mph doesn't make a difference on a pitcher, whether that pitcher be a flamethrower or junkballer, is being naive.

 

Bobby Jenks and his two 40 save seasons and 41 consecutive outs say hi

[BearSox]

Bobby Jenks and his two 40 save seasons and 41 consecutive outs say hi

Oh, he was a much different pitcher in 05 and 06 than he was in 07 and now. In 05, Jenks was a power pitcher, just look at the strikeout totals. In 06, his velocity dropped some, but he was still able to throw it in the high 90's for the majority of the season, and he was still a power pitcher. In 07, his velocity was topping out at 97 on good days, but for the most part he was staying in the mid 90's. In 07, he transformed from a power pitcher to a finese pitcher. To say he was the same Bobby Jenks that he was in 05 is being ubsurd.

 

Jenks velocity drop has made a difference in him... however, he has adapted, and his drop hasn't hurt him (yet at least).

 

So please, try again, and give me a good example of when a 3-4 mph loss in velocity doesn't make a difference in a pitcher.

[Kyyle23]

Oh, he was a much different pitcher in 05 and 06 than he was in 07 and now. In 05, Jenks was a power pitcher, just look at the strikeout totals. In 06, his velocity dropped some, but he was still able to throw it in the high 90's for the majority of the season, and he was still a power pitcher. In 07, his velocity was topping out at 97 on good days, but for the most part he was staying in the mid 90's. In 07, he transformed from a power pitcher to a finese pitcher. To say he was the same Bobby Jenks that he was in 05 is being ubsurd.

 

Jenks velocity drop has made a difference in him... however, he has adapted, and his drop hasn't hurt him (yet at least).

 

So please, try again, and give me a good example of when a 3-4 mph loss in velocity doesn't make a difference in a pitcher.

 

Greg Maddux, Kenny Rogers, Jaime Moyer, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, John Smoltz(there will be more as I think of them)

 

Heck, look at two other pitchers on our staff, Floyd and Contreras, who have both sacrificed MPH for control and their seasons so far have been pretty damn good

 

And I have yet to see where Buehrle has dropped 3-4 MPH, and why do strikeout totals matter if the results are still great?

 

 

Oh swami, you know so much, please enlighten us all

Edited May 15, 2008 by kyyle23

[BearSox]

Greg Maddux, Kenny Rogers, Jaime Moyer, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, John Smoltz(there will be more as I think of them)

 

Heck, look at two other pitchers on our staff, Floyd and Contreras, who have both sacrificed MPH for control and their seasons so far have been pretty damn good

 

And I have yet to see where Buehrle has dropped 3-4 MPH, and why do strikeout totals matter if the results are still great?

 

 

Oh swami, you know so much, please enlighten us all

 

Greg Maddux now is not the same pitcher he was 4-5 years ago. Moyer has been a different pitcher for the past 5-6 years. Clemens was a different type of pitcher past his prime, as was Curt Schillining. Mussina hasn't been the same, and neither has Rogers. And Smoltz, well he's the exception, not the rule.

 

Of all the pitchers you named, it is players in the late parts of their careers, who have conformed to their arms getting weaker. Roger Clemens is a perfect example of a pitcher adapting as they progress. If you take Clemens and compare him from his rookie season, to his prime, to how he was in the world series 3 years ago, that's 3 different types of pitchers.

 

I have no idea how you can try and tell me that 3-4 mph does not make a difference on a pitcher. Just because a pitcher never had a good fastball doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference. Compare an 88-91 mph fastball to an 80 mph changeup, and thats a good difference. However, now take an 85-87 mph fastball and compare it to a changeup at 80 mph. That's not going to throw many hitters off-balance.

 

This is not to go and say control doesn't matter, because control is probably the most important thing. But when you aren't fulling hitters, it's take perfect control to be good, and no pitcher in the world has perfect control. You bring up Floyd and Contrares, but they are still throwing in the low 90's, and have a big enough difference between their fastball and change. Plus, they both have out pitches, Buehrle really doesn't have one.

 

And if you haven't seen Buehrle drop 3-4 mph in his fastball, you must be blind, cause it is no secret that just 2-3 years ago, Buehrle used to consistently throw in 88-91 range, but now a days, it's a miracle to see him hit 88, but he generally stick in the 86-87 range. And strikeouts are a good indication of what type of a pitcher a pitcher is.

[lostfan]

I wouldn't completely take velocity out of the equation. If Mark lacks it and he doesn't have Maddux-like command that day, he's going to be far from dominant. He got hammered throughout most of 2006 and it wasn't because his command was terrible.

 

That said, I agree that location is the most important factor. Not only in Mark's case, but for pitchers in general.

He was having control issues in 2006 too. I remember him complaining about QuesTec or whatever it's called that measures the accuracy of umps and saying he wasn't trying to make excuses (he kind of was actually) just that the umps seemed to have a smaller strike zone and it'd make him miss his spots. It wasn't that. He was just plain missing them.

[witesoxfan]

Oh, he was a much different pitcher in 05 and 06 than he was in 07 and now. In 05, Jenks was a power pitcher, just look at the strikeout totals. In 06, his velocity dropped some, but he was still able to throw it in the high 90's for the majority of the season, and he was still a power pitcher. In 07, his velocity was topping out at 97 on good days, but for the most part he was staying in the mid 90's. In 07, he transformed from a power pitcher to a finese pitcher. To say he was the same Bobby Jenks that he was in 05 is being ubsurd.

 

Jenks velocity drop has made a difference in him... however, he has adapted, and his drop hasn't hurt him (yet at least).

 

So please, try again, and give me a good example of when a 3-4 mph loss in velocity doesn't make a difference in a pitcher.

 

 

What makes a bigger difference is leaving a fastball out of the fat part of the plate. That's the biggest factor of all.

 

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Greg Maddux now is not the same pitcher he was 4-5 years ago. Moyer has been a different pitcher for the past 5-6 years. Clemens was a different type of pitcher past his prime, as was Curt Schillining. Mussina hasn't been the same, and neither has Rogers. And Smoltz, well he's the exception, not the rule.

 

You asked for pitchers who lost MPH and were successful, no? Your qualifying statement was "To think 3-4 mph doesn't make a difference on a pitcher, whether that pitcher be a flamethrower or junkballer, is being naive." correct? Did i not name different types of pitchers who lost speed and still won games? Now its because they are "different" pitchers, and "not the same" and "exceptions, not the rule". What does "hasnt been the same" mean?" Are these pitchers still succeeding in the majors (or with Roger, when he was in the MLB WAS he succeeding)?

 

Of all the pitchers you named, it is players in the late parts of their careers, who have conformed to their arms getting weaker. Roger Clemens is a perfect example of a pitcher adapting as they progress. If you take Clemens and compare him from his rookie season, to his prime, to how he was in the world series 3 years ago, that's 3 different types of pitchers.

 

Did he, or did he not lose more than 3-4 MPH of his fastball

 

I have no idea how you can try and tell me that 3-4 mph does not make a difference on a pitcher. Just because a pitcher never had a good fastball doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference. Compare an 88-91 mph fastball to an 80 mph changeup, and thats a good difference. However, now take an 85-87 mph fastball and compare it to a changeup at 80 mph. That's not going to throw many hitters off-balance.

 

When you hang pitches over the middle of the plate, 3-4 MPH isnt going to make a damn bit of difference for your change, cutter, curve or slider.

 

This is not to go and say control doesn't matter, because control is probably the most important thing.[/b] But when you aren't fulling hitters, it's take perfect control to be good, and no pitcher in the world has perfect control. You bring up Floyd and Contrares, but they are still throwing in the low 90's, and have a big enough difference between their fastball and change. Plus, they both have out pitches, Buehrle really doesn't have one.

 

With Buehrle, Control is the only thing. Pitchers like him succeed in the bigs because they can spot their pitches.

 

And if you haven't seen Buehrle drop 3-4 mph in his fastball, you must be blind, cause it is no secret that just 2-3 years ago, Buehrle used to consistently throw in 88-91 range, but now a days, it's a miracle to see him hit 88, but he generally stick in the 86-87 range. And strikeouts are a good indication of what type of a pitcher a pitcher is.

 

 

"Its no secret that....", i love when you talk in general terms and call people blind and naive. Last year Buehrle was throwing very similar, but the difference was his location. Strikeouts are not a good indication oh how good buehrle is, he has gone over 150 strikeouts once in his life(averaging 130 a year), while averaging 224 innings per year. He is not a strikeout pitcher, yet he has been successful.

Edited May 16, 2008 by kyyle23

[Harry Chappas]

Jenks against Vlad last night was huge. Vlad had one pitch to hit and was a little late on it. Jenks then schooled him for the remainder of the AB.

[knightni]

So please, try again, and give me a good example of when a 3-4 mph loss in velocity doesn't make a difference in a pitcher.

Frank Tanana lost 20 mph off of his pitches. He still won games.

[BearSox]

I usually don't bring in Hack and DJ to make points, but last night they were talking about how velocity drops can hurt pitchers, like Buehrle and Zito, and unless you have perfect location, your gonna get hit. Zito has lost about 4-6 mph on fastball while Buehrle only has dropped 3-4 mph for the most part. But I was impressed though, Buehrle hit 87 a few times, so he had more velocity than Zito.

[southsideirish71]

I usually don't bring in Hack and DJ to make points, but last night they were talking about how velocity drops can hurt pitchers, like Buehrle and Zito, and unless you have perfect location, your gonna get hit. Zito has lost about 4-6 mph on fastball while Buehrle only has dropped 3-4 mph for the most part. But I was impressed though, Buehrle hit 87 a few times, so he had more velocity than Zito.

 

I guess glossing over the point that Zito couldnt find the zone regularlly, and was in hitters counts all night is just a coincidence. Do you know what made the difference last night. Buerhle throwing strike one. Also Buerhle looked better last night because he was driving his cutter in on the hands of righties. That more than "speed" differential is the issue.

 

 

[knightni]

I usually don't bring in Hack and DJ to make points,

 

Did you seriously call Ken Harrelson, "Hack"?

 

The man may be repetitive, but he knows more baseball than you know.

 

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Did you seriously call Ken Harrelson, "Hack"?

 

The man may be repetitive, but he knows more baseball than you know.

 

This unpossible. Bearsox know all

Edited May 18, 2008 by kyyle23

[knightni]

This unpossible. Bearsox know all

He certainly tells us that every day.

 

By the way, Hawk is a smart baseball guy. He just gives us a 'homer' approach because that's what he thinks that Sox fans want.

[Kyyle23]

He certainly tells us that every day.

 

By the way, Hawk is a smart baseball guy. He just gives us a 'homer' approach because that's what he thinks that Sox fans want.

 

Even if you dont like him and the way he presents himself on a broadcast, he has been around the game for 49 years and has seen and been a part of more games than any one of us. Homer or not, he knows the game pretty well