Rickey Henderson

[Texsox]

I always kind of considered him a goof, with the illeism and just plan goofy stuff he did. But I was just reading some stuff on his career and realize he was far greater then I remember. Amazing career and really loved to play. As I get older, I am beginning to appreciate the guys that just seem to really love their sport, Buerhle, Favre, and the like.

[GoSox05]

The 130 stolen bases in one year is crazy. You rarely see guys get half of that. Could you imagine having him lead off.

[Mplssoxfan]

Rickey was, quite simply, the greatest leadoff hitter in history.

 

There are some fantastic stories about him, too.

 

Apparently, he used to take his meal money and put it in envelopes. He'd take those envelopes home and put them in a box, and when one of his daughters warranted a reward for some reason (grades being one, IIRC), he'd get out the box and let them take an envelope.

 

There's another story about a large check that didn't clear the bank for weeks. The ballclub was concerned and called Rickey's agent to inform him that there was no record of the check clearing. Turns out that Rickey had had the check framed and it was hanging on his wall in his living room.

[knightni]

Rickey was, quite simply, the greatest leadoff hitter in history.

Rickey would tell you Rickey's self that Rickey is the greatest player of all time.

That's what Rickey would do.

[hammerhead johnson]

Rickey was, quite simply, the greatest leadoff hitter in history.

 

I'd have to go with Ty Cobb. 11 batting average titles, 10 OPS titles, 7 OBP titles, 8 SLG titles, 6 SB titles, etc. Highest lifetime batting average in MLB history, a .433 career OBP, over 4000 hits, 2250 runs, 900 SBs, 300 triples, 725 doubles, etc.

 

Consider this: Rickey Henderson never had an OBP of .440 or higher, but Ty Cobb did it 13 times: .456, .467, .456, .467, .466, .486, .452, .444, .440, .452, .462, .468, .440.

[witesoxfan]

I'd have to go with Ty Cobb. 11 batting average titles, 10 OPS titles, 7 OBP titles, 8 SLG titles, 6 SB titles, etc. Highest lifetime batting average in MLB history, a .433 career OBP, over 4000 hits, 2250 runs, 900 SBs, 300 triples, 725 doubles, etc.

 

Consider this: Rickey Henderson never had an OBP of .440 or higher, but Ty Cobb did it 13 times: .456, .467, .456, .467, .466, .486, .452, .444, .440, .452, .462, .468, .440.

 

Cobb also hit .370 or better 8 times...it's not hard to put up a .440 OBP when you're hitting .370+. Not easy, but not hard.

 

I'd say this is a similar debate as to comparing Bonds to Ruth, although at Cobb's time, average hitters were much, much more prevalent. Considering such, I'd say a .132 IsoOBP is more impressive than a .067. As such, I'd say Henderson putting up a career .401 OBP - as a non-slugger - is more impressive than Cobb's .433 OBP with his .366 career average. I'd say, comparing to today's game, you can dumb Cobb's career average down to .320-.330ish, thus dumbing down his OBP but increasing his slugging percentage to a degree where he wouldn't be hitting leadoff anymore but rather hitting 3rd or even 4th.

 

Now, whether that's right or wrong is debateable (it is more understandable than dumbing Ruth's numbers down to modern times, because he was a 3/4 hitter and did put up modern day 3/4 numbers in the 20s), but that's why I believe Henderson to be the greatest leadoff hitter of all time and why no one is really even close to him. That, and his 1406 stolen bases and his 80.8 career stolen base percentage. Not only did he steal 1400 bases, but he stole them at a better than productive rate. Henderson was amazing.

 

 

 

 

FWIW, Cobb stole at an 83.3% rate when it was recorded...caught stealing was not recorded in 12 seasons, and when it was recorded, he stole at a 64.7% rate, which is brutal as far as base stealing goes. I'm sure he was slightly better than that, but I'd find it hard to believe he stole at a 70% rate or better during those seasons, seeing how mediocrely he stole during his other seasons.

[lostfan]

Cobb also hit .370 or better 8 times...it's not hard to put up a .440 OBP when you're hitting .370+. Not easy, but not hard.

 

I'd say this is a similar debate as to comparing Bonds to Ruth, although at Cobb's time, average hitters were much, much more prevalent. Considering such, I'd say a .132 IsoOBP is more impressive than a .067. As such, I'd say Henderson putting up a career .401 OBP - as a non-slugger - is more impressive than Cobb's .433 OBP with his .366 career average. I'd say, comparing to today's game, you can dumb Cobb's career average down to .320-.330ish, thus dumbing down his OBP but increasing his slugging percentage to a degree where he wouldn't be hitting leadoff anymore but rather hitting 3rd or even 4th.

You say this dismissively, almost as if it's easy to hit .370 and that's not really much of a feat in itself. .370 is an absurdly high batting average to have even once let alone 8 times. Hell even a OBP of .370 by itself is not so bad.

[SoxFan562004]

Rickey was, quite simply, the greatest leadoff hitter in history.

 

There are some fantastic stories about him, too.

 

Apparently, he used to take his meal money and put it in envelopes. He'd take those envelopes home and put them in a box, and when one of his daughters warranted a reward for some reason (grades being one, IIRC), he'd get out the box and let them take an envelope.

 

There's another story about a large check that didn't clear the bank for weeks. The ballclub was concerned and called Rickey's agent to inform him that there was no record of the check clearing. Turns out that Rickey had had the check framed and it was hanging on his wall in his living room.

I heard his name secret name for hotels was "Rick" Henderson

 

He wouldn't give a seat up to Tony Gwynn even when someone said Gwynn had tenure because "Ricky has 'twenty-year'"

[RockRaines]

I always kind of considered him a goof, with the illeism and just plan goofy stuff he did. But I was just reading some stuff on his career and realize he was far greater then I remember. Amazing career and really loved to play. As I get older, I am beginning to appreciate the guys that just seem to really love their sport, Buerhle, Favre, and the like.

Best lead off hitter of all time, he was an amazing baseball player. RockRaines was a close second IMO though.

[RockRaines]

I'd have to go with Ty Cobb. 11 batting average titles, 10 OPS titles, 7 OBP titles, 8 SLG titles, 6 SB titles, etc. Highest lifetime batting average in MLB history, a .433 career OBP, over 4000 hits, 2250 runs, 900 SBs, 300 triples, 725 doubles, etc.

 

Consider this: Rickey Henderson never had an OBP of .440 or higher, but Ty Cobb did it 13 times: .456, .467, .456, .467, .466, .486, .452, .444, .440, .452, .462, .468, .440.

SHould have been modern era. Cobb is well known as probably the best player in the "dead ball era" but we cannot compare players between the two era's. The dude had a career .367 batting avg, that just couldnt be done now.

[Mplssoxfan]

Cobb was a better hitter than Rickey, but he didn't bat leadoff. He was a 3 - 4 hitter. Therefore, I stand by my statement earlier in the thread.

[hammerhead johnson]

Cobb was a better hitter than Rickey, but he didn't bat leadoff. He was a 3 - 4 hitter. Therefore, I stand by my statement earlier in the thread.

 

Baseball Library Article:

 

Ty Cobb was the greatest lead-off hitter in baseball history. It must be granted that Cobb did not always lead off, but he did so enough in his 24-year career that he qualifies as a leadoff hitter.

 

I also have some HOF book that says pretty much the same thing. He didn't hit exclusively out of the leadoff slot, but he got enough bats out of that spot to qualify for our purposes.

 

Furthermore, if you're putting together an all-time lineup, there's no doubt that Cobb is leading off. No doubt whatsoever.

[hammerhead johnson]

SHould have been modern era. Cobb is well known as probably the best player in the "dead ball era" but we cannot compare players between the two era's. The dude had a career .367 batting avg, that just couldnt be done now.

 

Look at the league batting average numbers.

 

Ty Cobb between the ages of 22 and 32:

 

1909

Cobb BA: .377

League BA: .257

 

1910

Cobb BA: .383

League BA: .258

 

1911

Cobb BA: .420

League BA: .287

 

1912

Cobb BA: .409

League BA: .269

 

1913

Cobb BA: .390

League BA: .263

 

1914

Cobb BA: .368

League BA: .260

 

1915

Cobb BA: .369

League BA: .261

 

1916

Cobb BA: .371

League BA: .261

 

1917

Cobb BA: .383

League BA: .255

 

1918

Cobb BA: .382

League BA: .256

 

1919

Cobb BA: .384

League BA: .274

 

From 1920 to 1929, the league BA was consistently in the .288 to .300 range, and Cobb had also turned 33 at the beginning of this period, so he was no longer finishing like 130 points above league average, but really, the 1909-1919 numbers speak for themselves.

[Mplssoxfan]

I'm certainly not going to do any kind of in-depth research for this thread, but if you go to retrosheet and look at the box scores from the 1907-1909 World Series, you'll see that he batted cleanup in every game in 1907 and 1908 and third in 1909. I, personally, have never seen much evidence that Cobb was a leadoff hitter. I'm certain that he did hit in that spot from time to time, but I'm sticking with my assertion that he was a 3 -4 hitter.

 

If Williams or Musial hit leadoff, they'd be the best leadoff hitters of all time, too. Same with Bonds or Ruth. They are much more valuable in the spots in which they actually hit, though, just as Cobb was.

[hammerhead johnson]

If Williams or Musial hit leadoff, they'd be the best leadoff hitters of all time, too. Same with Bonds or Ruth. They are much more valuable in the spots in which they actually hit, though, just as Cobb was.

 

Cobb might have finished with great OPS numbers, but he wasn't your prototypical slugger. His profile = table setter. Guys like Bonds, Ruth, Musial, and Williams were there to knock in the table-setters.

 

4000+ hits, .433 career OBP, 300 triples, 700+ doubles, 2200+ runs, and 900 SBs = greatest table-setter of all time as far as I can tell.

[Gregory Pratt]

Wikipedia has Cobb listed as a leadoff hitter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadoff_hitter

The book "Cobb" has him as largely a leadoff batter.

And I'm pretty sure he played significantly over 50% of his time in the leadoff spot.

 

Not only was he much better than Henderson at hitting and getting on base, he had a significantly higher slugging percentage in an era much much less conductive to slugging.

[Mplssoxfan]

Before I start, I'd like to say that I really enjoy these discussions, even though I realize I bring a different perspective to things.

 

I'm going to have to dig in my heels here, because it's been a while since I've read Cobb, and I don't trust Wikipedia's list of leadoff men. That list has Joe Morgan and Craig Biggio as leadoff hitters, which is patently untrue. Those two hit out of the two-hole. And look at who they have as the Sox' 2008 leadoff man!

 

FWIW, here's a quote from Cobb's Wikipedia entry.

 

Sam Crawford and Ty Cobb were teammates for parts of thirteen seasons. They played beside each other in right and center field, and Crawford followed Cobb in the batting order year after year. Despite the physical closeness, the two had a complicated relationship.

 

I guarantee Sam Crawford wasn't hitting second in the Tiger's lineup, so where does that leave us?

 

Look, I said I wasn't going to do a lot of research for this, and I've already probably passed my limit. If some of you want to assert that Cobb was a leadoff man, that's cool.

 

I agree with Hammerhead that if you were putting together a lineup of all-time greats, you'd put Cobb at leadoff. Where else would he make sense? Every one on that list is a 3 - 4 hitter.

[knightni]

Wikipedia has Cobb listed as a leadoff hitter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadoff_hitter

 

Give me 5 minutes.

It'll say that Cobb was a circus performer.

[DrunkBomber]

SHould have been modern era. Cobb is well known as probably the best player in the "dead ball era" but we cannot compare players between the two era's. The dude had a career .367 batting avg, that just couldnt be done now.

Maybe, just maybe, if Jose Valentin can stay healthy for a whole season he can accomplish this feat. Hes the only active player with a legitimate shot though.

[hammerhead johnson]

My all-time lineup:

 

1. Ty Cobb OF

2. Rogers Hornsby 2B

3. Babe Ruth OF

4. Lou Gehrig 1B

5. Ted Williams DH

6. Willie Mays OF

7. Josh Gibson C

8. Alex Rodriguez 3B

9. Honus Wagner SS

 

Bench:

 

Hank Aaron

Johhny Bench

Rickey Henderson

Juan Uribe

 

f*** Barry Bonds

[lostfan]

My all-time lineup:

 

1. Ty Cobb OF

2. Rogers Hornsby 2B

3. Babe Ruth OF

4. Lou Gehrig 1B

5. Ted Williams DH

6. Willie Mays OF

7. Josh Gibson C

8. Alex Rodriguez 3B

9. Honus Wagner SS

 

Bench:

 

Hank Aaron

Johhny Bench

Rickey Henderson

Juan Uribe

 

f*** Barry Bonds

We did a thread like this on another board, it was good stuff. Matter of fact, I'm going to start it now.