Official 2008-2009 NBA Thread

[nitetrain8601]

I would think a trade of either Camby or Kaman is next, otherwise that's going to be a pain to split their minutes. Too bad the Bulls don't have a whole lot of bargaining chips anymore, Kaman would be a great fit.

 

Kaman is next. He's owed more money and his contract won't expire in time for 2010. They've hated his production all year and they seem to like Camby as a leader and believe he will get better this season as he heals even more. I don't know why they would get rid of a younger center on a decent contract over an older guy, but it seems like they are trying to win now with Camby, Baron, and Zach.

[ZoomSlowik]

And damn me for bringing you out of your fantasies you want to call reality. The Bulls' Opponents PER against SG is 11.9 which is 2nd lowest on the team. Between 2nd and 3rd there is a decent gap of 1.6 and between Gordon and our bigs, 21.1 and 23.1 for PF & C respectively. Which shows the true story on how our season is. Gordon has been disrupting opposing team's SG's while Deng does a decent job and our big men are atrocious and any big men facing the Bulls is going to have a field day. I was surprised to see Rose have an opposing PER of 11.4, which indicates a huge improvement from where he was about 2 weeks ago.

 

So yeah, the whole Gordon is terrible defensively and doesn't deserve a large contract because he's 6'2 and not 6'7 has no credibility. Give me a 6'2 basketball player over a 6'7 bum (Hughes anyone?)

 

1) I don't think anyone has argued that Gordon has played poorly so far, outside of some scattered groans about the last two games.

 

2) I don't think anyone has argued that Larry Hughes or Kirk Hinrich is a better option at the moment, or that our big men are good.

 

3) That said, which has more weight in determining his defensive value, the 12 games of data from this season or the 19.2 PER he allowed in the 72 games last year while playing SG and 19.7 at PG? For every small-sample size stat you want to throw out there are larger samples from last year that show how bad he was at the defense end. Even this year he's fallen from almost a -7 points/100 posessions rating on defense end peak a few games ago to only a -1.6 and falling right now. He is a very talented shooter that can score in bunches, but that's about it. If they can sign him for around 10 mil or less you won't hear me complain, the problem is it sounds like he wants a fair amount more than that and that he won't be getting it from the Bulls.

Edited November 22, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[whitesoxfan101]

I backed up my statements with facts. You guys could talk baseball, but as far as basketball, just wow. I even gave you stats which are equivalents to OPS+'s for basketball and such and you choose to ignore them. You have said nothing other than LULZ, OMGZ BEN GORDON IZ SO SHORT HES THE SUX0RZ!!1!

 

Huh? I've just said he's a very poor defender, short, and going to be very overpaid this offseason. You have yet to make a point to prove any of those lack validity, and you also seem to be implying that Gordon is as good as Rose based on statistics, and I would hope you know better than to use small sample sizes and assume that as fact. He's a very explosive offensive player, but besides that, he leaves a lot to be desired and I see no way as to how you can win a championship relying on his specific skill, which is quite useful, but often erratic.

Edited November 22, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[ZoomSlowik]

The Bulls have a ton of bargaining chips, the Clippers just don't want/need them. 2 large expiring contracts, multiple young guys, couple of trade-able veterans with contracts that actually decrease with time. But unless they're willing to go to the total rebuild and shoot for a 2010 expiring contract, they won't take it.

 

Okay, maybe I should have rephrased that to say GOOD trading chips, the kind that can bring in a solid big man in his mid-20's like Kaman. We're not trading Rose, Deng is a BYC player and thus very difficult, if not impossible to move, and Gordon would also be very difficult to trade. So we're basically left praying that they'll take something like Gooden, Tyrus/Noah and a lottery protected first or that they really like Hinrich or Nocioni, which isn't exactly an overwhelming package. I doubt Hughes' contract would interest them considering they just gave up two other dead-weight type contracts that expire in 2010 with Mobley and Thomas.

Edited November 22, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[Balta1701]

Okay, maybe I should have rephrased that to say GOOD trading chips, the kind that can bring in a solid big man in his mid-20's like Kaman. We're not trading Rose, Deng is a BYC player and thus very difficult, if not impossible to move, and Gordon would also be very difficult to trade. So we're basically left praying that they'll take something like Gooden, Tyrus/Noah and a lottery protected first or that they really like Hinrich or Nocioni, which isn't exactly an overwhelming package. I doubt Hughes' contract would interest them considering they just gave up two other dead-weight type contracts that expire in 2010 with Mobley and Thomas.

Frankly, if the Clippers were actually intent on building long-term, they'd jump at a deal like Hinrich and Gooden for Kaman + maybe Mobely or something like that, or maybe try to get us to throw in one of the younger bigs along with Hinrich for Kaman. After the Brand Fiasco, they need to realize they're back to almost square 1 in a conference where they don't have a shot, and they need to clear cap space and look for draft picks or guys with contracts like Hinrich - that go down with time.

 

But that's why they're the clippers.

[ZoomSlowik]

Frankly, if the Clippers were actually intent on building long-term, they'd jump at a deal like Hinrich and Gooden for Kaman + maybe Mobely or something like that, or maybe try to get us to throw in one of the younger bigs along with Hinrich for Kaman. After the Brand Fiasco, they need to realize they're back to almost square 1 in a conference where they don't have a shot, and they need to clear cap space and look for draft picks or guys with contracts like Hinrich - that go down with time.

 

But that's why they're the clippers.

 

Mobley and Thomas are gone already, so right now they don't really have any "dead weight" contracts on their roster that we could eat, and quite frankly Tyrus and Noah have been terrible this year and probably don't have a whole lot of value. Adding an $8 mil a year backup PG doesn't exactly help either, and I'd imagine they'd rather try to develop Gordon than play Kirk at the 2. I have to think that if they really want to move him there are better options, if nothing else Charlotte probably offered Gerald Wallace in that scenario that made it to the press a while ago, if nothing else that is probably still there. Acquiring someone like a Kevin Martin (just a hypothetical, doubt they do it since they have Miller and Hawes and Thompson have started well) would make far more sense, and I would think they could get someone to give up a bunch for a 26 year old big man signed to a reasonable deal.

 

I just can't see them totally starting over given that they just acquired Randolph, Camby and Davis this year, and if they did trade Kaman to accomplish that they'd probably want something more along the lines of good young players (which outside of Rose we don't have) or high picks (which we probably shouldn't give up given our lack of quality options). Unless it's a flat out salary dump I don't really like our chances to complete a deal, this isn't the 06/07 season where we had numerous attractive pieces and sat on them. Even if they took Hughes' contract, which seems unlikely since they just gave up a bunch of money that expires in 2010 and actually ADDED future financial commitments, they'd have to sign someone better than Kaman to make progress. I don't see any realistic package that we can send them that makes them a better team or gives them a real chance to be better down the road, so we'd have to count on some serious desperation and/or stupidity. I do suppose that is possible though considering they just acquired another big man with 3 years at about 17 per year left when they already had two starting caliber bigs that are making decent money.

Edited November 22, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[MurcieOne]

Rose looks like he hurt his hand in the final moments of tonights game.... f***.

[ZoomSlowik]

Rose looks like he hurt his hand in the final moments of tonights game.... f***.

 

Actually, he took a knee to the hip/groin area (judging by his reaction it was the latter). Looks painful but not serious, If I had to guess I'd say he misses one game tops.

[rangercal]

I really need him to start producing. I picked him on my fantasy team only because he was involved in my team name, "ChrisKaman His Pants".

 

Dude why do you have to jack my team name?

[shipps]

Marbury is such an ass,I have never seen a player refuse to play as much as he does.Its like cmon man,do you have any pride?

[MurcieOne]

Actually, he took a knee to the hip/groin area (judging by his reaction it was the latter). Looks painful but not serious, If I had to guess I'd say he misses one game tops.

 

whew, i caught the end of that sequence and saw him holding his right hand... thank god the only reason to watch bulls basketball wont be missing any games (he said that last night).

 

[RockRaines]

whew, i caught the end of that sequence and saw him holding his right hand... thank god the only reason to watch bulls basketball wont be missing any games (he said that last night).

And he was 100 percent dominating the end of the game until he got kneed. He even shushed the crowd twice.

[ThunderBolt]

And he was 100 percent dominating the end of the game until he got kneed. He even shushed the crowd twice.

Rose just came out and said he was fine. So, he'll be ready for the next game. And may i just say, Attaboy Hughes raise that trade value!

[nitetrain8601]

1) I don't think anyone has argued that Gordon has played poorly so far, outside of some scattered groans about the last two games.

 

2) I don't think anyone has argued that Larry Hughes or Kirk Hinrich is a better option at the moment, or that our big men are good.

 

3) That said, which has more weight in determining his defensive value, the 12 games of data from this season or the 19.2 PER he allowed in the 72 games last year while playing SG and 19.7 at PG? For every small-sample size stat you want to throw out there are larger samples from last year that show how bad he was at the defense end. Even this year he's fallen from almost a -7 points/100 posessions rating on defense end peak a few games ago to only a -1.6 and falling right now. He is a very talented shooter that can score in bunches, but that's about it. If they can sign him for around 10 mil or less you won't hear me complain, the problem is it sounds like he wants a fair amount more than that and that he won't be getting it from the Bulls.

 

The thing is, Gordon had decided to accept the 55 million dollar contract the day before the deadline to accept the QO and the Bulls said no. So Gordon vastly lowered his demands and went with what the Bulls offered. They just pulled the offer.

 

Again, the problem with the Bulls is how they negotiated Luol's contract. That's what screwed them over with Ben. Even just saying, "This is our budget for you guys, find a way to make it happen." that would have been better. Instead Luol and Ben were in the same situation and they showed favortism to Luol by just giving him a contract with no other offers on the table for him and then told Ben right after to go find an offer. That's terrible negotiating.

[RockRaines]

Rose just came out and said he was fine. So, he'll be ready for the next game. And may i just say, Attaboy Hughes raise that trade value!

Awesome. Rose is on another level from the rest of the team, he NEEDS to play as much as possible. I cant wait to see Hughes go, apparently I didnt watch him much last season because my hatred grows every game this year.

[MurcieOne]

 

poster quality

[shipps]

His ankles are above Jacksons waist and he is straight legged.f***ing hops.

[knightni]

Marbury is such an ass,I have never seen a player refuse to play as much as he does.Its like cmon man,do you have any pride?

 

On a side note...

 

Starburys will be no more soon.

All Steve and Barry's are going out of business.

[Chisoxfn]

Even without Gordon we'd be at worst a push with the Thunder.

Exactly...and they might be the worse team in NBA history.

[Chisoxfn]

I would think a trade of either Camby or Kaman is next, otherwise that's going to be a pain to split their minutes. Too bad the Bulls don't have a whole lot of bargaining chips anymore, Kaman would be a great fit.

Kaman would be a great fit and would fit in with the core. I'd even trade Deng in a package for him because Deng is really not fitting into the current system (and I love Luol). Kaman/Gooden is a legit 4/5 combo with Rose a legit 1. You'd than just need to find the 2/3's and those are typically the easiest positions to fill on the court. Deng is obviously too much, but a healthy Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas or Noah plus a pick could intrigue the Clippers.

[MurcieOne]

Kaman would be a great fit and would fit in with the core. I'd even trade Deng in a package for him because Deng is really not fitting into the current system (and I love Luol). Kaman/Gooden is a legit 4/5 combo with Rose a legit 1. You'd than just need to find the 2/3's and those are typically the easiest positions to fill on the court. Deng is obviously too much, but a healthy Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas or Noah plus a pick could intrigue the Clippers.

 

Pax got lucky with Rose, but the real challenge will be to build a competent team around him. The next time the Bulls contend for ANYTHING, I have a feeling that the only remaining name from this current roster will be Rose. Pax needs to turn this roster around, but he must make sure that the players he brings in don't gum-up the roster even more than it already is.

 

Gooden is an expiring contract, and he can actually play... he will be valuable around the deadline. What will Pax do with him? Try and parlay him into some talent, or allow him enter FA and try and create some cap room for the 2010 FA class (Larry Hughes comes off the books before then too IIRC). These decisions will make or break the Paxon era.

 

 

[ZoomSlowik]

Kaman would be a great fit and would fit in with the core. I'd even trade Deng in a package for him because Deng is really not fitting into the current system (and I love Luol). Kaman/Gooden is a legit 4/5 combo with Rose a legit 1. You'd than just need to find the 2/3's and those are typically the easiest positions to fill on the court. Deng is obviously too much, but a healthy Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas or Noah plus a pick could intrigue the Clippers.

 

They can't really move Deng because he's a base year compensation player, meaning he'd only count as a $4.5 mil player (half of his salary this season) in any trade even though his contract is actually in the 9-14 range for the length of his contract. I also kind of doubt they'd want an $8 mil backup PG back in the trade. I would think the package most likely to be accepted would be Gooden and his expiring deal, Tyrus or Noah, and one or two lottery-protected 1st rounders.

[whitesoxfan101]

The Bulls completely collapse down the stretch, and whatever chance they had at a decent circus trip is now gone.

[rangercal]

The Bulls completely collapse down the stretch, and whatever chance they had at a decent circus trip is now gone.

 

Bulls***. 2 wins is a decent circus trip, imo. I'm serious.

[whitesoxfan101]

Bulls***. 2 wins is a decent circus trip, imo. I'm serious.

 

I can't agree with that, 2-5 is trash regardless of history. I thought they had a good shot at a 3-4 trip (they can win in Philly) had they won tonight, but the collapse was awful. They won't win in Utah or San Antonio, even with neither of those teams playing great ball right now.