Official 2008-2009 NBA Thread

[ZoomSlowik]

Don't you guys know what this baits me to do? It baits me to respond with other ways to look at the data.

 

If you look at the first half of the season, Oct. through the end of January, when TT was still being benched randomly and Drew Gooden gave us our small lineup domination, Tyrus averaged 14.6 p/40, 9.1 reb/40. From Feb 1. on, the time during the season when TT averaged over 30 minutes per game, TT averaged 17.0 p/40, 9.6 reb/40.

 

Josh Smith averaged 15.6 points and 7.2 rebounds in 35.1 minutes last season. Scaled to 35 minutes, Tyrus averaged 14.8 points and 8.4 rebounds per 35 in the 2nd half. Smith had 1 more assist per 35, Tyrus had 1 more block per 35. Turnovers per minute are basically a wash for the entire season (smith is 0.2/35 higher). The only real difference is that TT picks up about 1 more foul per 35 than Smith did last year (and NBA.com didn't have season splits on foul #'s so I can't see if that improved in the 2nd half without looking more).

 

Did you have fun trying to argue how well Tyrus compares to a guy that would be the third best player on a legit contender? You had to take only half a season's worth of data and assume that his rates of production in those stats would still remain constant with 8 more minutes of playing time to even get to that point.

 

Seriously, the playing time argument with Tyrus is getting really tired, it's not like he was bolted to the bench this entire season. I swear, you people won't be happy until he's playing more minutes than Lebron.

Edited May 6, 2009 by ZoomSlowik

[Balta1701]

Did you have fun trying to argue how well Tyrus compares to a guy that would be the third best player on a legit contender?

You'd have a problem with TT being the 3rd best player on the Bulls?

[ZoomSlowik]

You'd have a problem with TT being the 3rd best player on the Bulls?

 

I have a problem with people using the minutes argument as the only thing holding him from being a star, when even if you generously project out his current production he still compares to a good but not great player that has significant flaws. Hell, Luol Deng put up fairly comparable PER's to Josh Smith the previous two years. Tyrus Thomas is not going to be THE reason they are successful, at best he's going to be a role player with other people carrying the bulk of the load.

[Balta1701]

I have a problem with people using the minutes argument as the only thing holding him from being a star, when even if you generously project out his current production he still compares to a good but not great player that has significant flaws. Hell, Luol Deng put up fairly comparable PER's to Josh Smith the previous two years. Tyrus Thomas is not going to be THE reason they are successful, at best he's going to be a role player with other people carrying the bulk of the load.

I'm not saying he's going to be a star. He needs a ton of new post moves before that even becomes possible. But I will certainly take a good player out of him if that's all he ever winds up being. The point I keep trying to make is that benching him does not help us. It didn't help us against the Celtics, it hasn't helped us in the 3 years since we drafted him, it won't help us in the future.

 

Edit: Just one more benching TT/Small lineup note. I'm not opposed to the concept of a small lineup as a changeup. It certainly worked in the C's series in at least one game (was that game 4 I think?) The problem is that if you make the 4 guard lineup a standard tactic that you deploy for 10-20 minutes per game, it goes from being a changeup that maybe gives you some extra points to being something the other team can game plan for and adapt to, and it's really easy to beat if you have more than 1 tall guy of your own...you just have to feed that guy in the post and force the defense in to rotations that they can't win on. Which is exactly what the C's did against our 18 minutes straight of the 4 guard lineup in game 4.

[SoxAce]

Seriously, the playing time argument with Tyrus is getting really tired, it's not like he was bolted to the bench this entire season. I swear, you people won't be happy until he's playing more minutes than Lebron.

 

Hell at least Derrick Rose/Ben Gordon minutes would be nice. Of course you knew that Joe.

[ZoomSlowik]

Hell at least Derrick Rose/Ben Gordon minutes would be nice. Of course you knew that Joe.

 

Whoopie, then he can average 13-8 and everyone can gush over how big a star he is! <_>

 

You know, they were saying the same thing about Stromile Swift at one point...

[Steve9347]

[rangercal]

I can live with that trade. For the people who can't, time to get over it.

[Steve9347]

I can live with that trade. For the people who can't, time to get over it.

...and AJ with the canned, homer remark.

 

I'm living fine with it... but it was still one of the bigger f***ups in NBA drafting history...

Edited May 6, 2009 by Steve9347

[ZoomSlowik]

I can live with that trade. For the people who can't, time to get over it.

 

Yeah, why in god's name would we want the guy that's averaging about 18-8 on a better team...

 

Thank god they got lucky with Rose, otherwise it'd be ugly.

[rangercal]

...and AJ with the canned, homer remark.

 

I'm living fine with it... but it was still one of the bigger f***ups in NBA drafting history...

 

... and steve playing the role as the premature chicken little.

 

 

 

Tyrus is 22 years old. I don't know how you can analyze that trade in full detail at the moment.

Edited May 6, 2009 by rangercal

[rangercal]

Yeah, why in god's name would we want the guy that's averaging about 18-8 on a better team...

 

Thank god they got lucky with Rose, otherwise it'd be ugly.

 

Because players like Jermaine O'neal and Rashard Lewis never developed a little later? Right?

 

 

For better or worse, NO one knows what the final product of Tyrus will be.

[SoxAce]

You know, they were saying the same thing about Stromile Swift at one point...

 

Swift doesn't have nearly as much range nor as good of a stroke for a jumpshot, not to mention been considred very lazy in work ethic. (the complete opposite of Tyrus) I'll just let Tyrus do what he does this offseason. Work on his game as usual, get stronger, perhaps look at tape to get that IQ a "tad" better.. lol (he did have Drew Gooden as a teammate which is never good no matter who you are) let him go nuts, fill up the shat sheet like he usually does, and average in the top 5 in blocks, rebounds and perhaps steals.

[rangercal]

Swift at some serious personal problems he had to deal with. But you can't put that into the equation, right Zoom?

[Steve9347]

... and steve playing the role as the premature chicken little.

 

 

 

Tyrus is 22 years old. I don't know how you can analyze that trade in full detail at the moment.

The sky isn't falling... Derrick Rose assures us of that; but if you think Tyrus will ever be much more than what we've seen, you're kidding yourself.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Steve9347

[ZoomSlowik]

Because players like Jermaine O'neal and Rashard Lewis never developed a little later? Right?

 

 

For better or worse, NO one knows what the final product of Tyrus will be.

 

That's an amazingly retarded argument since LaMarcus Aldridge is only about a year older than Tyrus.

 

Way to compare him to two high schoolers too, Lewis was 21 in his first good season and O'Neal turned 22 right at the beginning of his first year with Indiana. Tyrus turns 23 in August, so he's already behind them.

[rangercal]

The sky isn't falling... Derrick Rose assures us of that; but if you think Tyrus will ever be much more than what we've seen, you're kidding yourself.

 

No I'm not. Because all the negative fans with no factual arguments said the same thing last year, and they were wrong. Tyrus did improve. So much so, that he was being discussed as the main trade chip by all media outlets for AMARE.

[rangercal]

That's an amazingly retarded argument since LaMarcus Aldridge is only about a year older than Tyrus.

 

Way to compare him to two high schoolers too, Lewis was 21 in his first good season and O'Neal turned 22 right at the beginning of his first year with Indiana. Tyrus turns 23 in August, so he's already behind them.

 

It's not retarded. Some players are late bloomers and some are not. Sometimes the late bloomers end up being the better final product.

 

Quit letting your tyrus hatred stoop yourself so low. You are better than that.

 

 

I'm trying to talk to you as a basketball fan.

 

 

Tyrus is 22 , is not a finished product and did show improvement this year. Stop ignoring the facts.

Edited May 6, 2009 by rangercal

[SoxAce]

The sky isn't falling... but if you think Tyrus will ever be much more than what we've seen, you're kidding yourself.

 

And if you think this is his peek and will not improve anymore in any aspect of his game (which he's done every year even with inconsistant minutes) then your more "full of it" in evaluating the NBA, than I previously thought.

[Steve9347]

No I'm not. Because all the negative fans with no factual arguments said the same thing last year, and they were wrong. Tyrus did improve. So much so, that he was being discussed as the main trade chip by all media outlets for AMARE.

WHOA!!! The media talked about it!

 

You'll notice he didn't wind up being the main chip in an Amare deal... so that means absolutely nothing.

 

No one said he COULDN'T IMPROVE. What we say is, he has the basketball IQ of a dump truck and for every good game (Game 1) he has 6 bad/ineffective games where he cannot be trusted.

[SoxAce]

That's an amazingly retarded argument since LaMarcus Aldridge is only about a year older than Tyrus.

 

Way to compare him to two high schoolers too, Lewis was 21 in his first good season and O'Neal turned 22 right at the beginning of his first year with Indiana. Tyrus turns 23 in August, so he's already behind them.

 

I would say he's improving pretty well for a guy who really didn't start playing basketball (at least seriously) till his junior year in high school.

 

 

[rangercal]

WHOA!!! The media talked about it!

 

You'll notice he didn't wind up being the main chip in an Amare deal... so that means absolutely nothing.

 

No one said he COULDN'T IMPROVE. What we say is, he has the basketball IQ of a dump truck and for every good game (Game 1) he has 6 bad/ineffective games where he cannot be trusted.

 

Steve Kerr never denied the Tyrus talks.

[rangercal]

No one said he COULDN'T IMPROVE.

 

The sky isn't falling... Derrick Rose assures us of that; but if you think Tyrus will ever be much more than what we've seen, you're kidding yourself.

 

 

Make up your mind. I don't have time for this.

[Steve9347]

Make up your mind. I don't have time for this.

I said "much more". You obviously have the time since you're on soxtalk all day.

 

"Won't improve much more" does not mean "won't improve at all".

[ZoomSlowik]

Swift doesn't have nearly as much range nor as good of a stroke for a jumpshot, not to mention been considred very lazy in work ethic. (the complete opposite of Tyrus) I'll just let Tyrus do what he does this offseason. Work on his game as usual, get stronger, perhaps look at tape to get that IQ a "tad" better.. lol (he did have Drew Gooden as a teammate which is never good no matter who you are) let him go nuts, fill up the shat sheet like he usually does, and average in the top 5 in blocks, rebounds and perhaps steals.

 

 

Swift at some serious personal problems he had to deal with. But you can't put that into the equation, right Zoom?

Tyrus isn't exactly Kevin Garnett, he hits 35% of his jumpers. For all of the supposed work ethic edge he has on Swift, he hasn't exactly lept past him. Tyrus is also nowhere near the top-5 in rebounding even if you factor in the rate.

 

Stromile's emotional problems weren't the problem, the problem is that he has/had no skill and couldn't defend. Tyrus for all of his steals/blocks didn't exactly help us slow down Glen Davis and Kendrick Perkins (yes, I know he wasn't always on the floor, but he got 27.9 MPG in the playoffs and it wasn't exactly the first time we had issues).

 

 

They're a lot more similar than you think...

 

Tyrus year 3, age 22: 27.5 MPG, 10.8 points, 6.5 rebounds, 45.1% FG, 78.3% FT, 1.2 steals, 1.9 blocks

 

Swift, year 2, age 22 (so he even spots Tyrus a year): 26.5 MPG, 11.8 points, 6.4 rebounds, 48% FG, .711 FT, .8 steal, 1.7 blocks

 

Bottom line is expecting him to make a monumental leap forward at this point is fairly naive. He's fairly decent now, but still does an awful lot of things that hurt you.