Official 2008-2009 NBA Thread

[lostfan]

I was on the same boat for Pax before the trade deadline. I'm ok if they both stay here next year. If we were out the playoff race I would want VDN's head.

Meh, nothing in sports is more worthless than getting the 7th or 8th seed in the NBA, anomalies like Golden State notwithstanding.

[Kyyle23]

If you surround Steve with some experienced assistants then maybe he should....

 

I'm only half joking about this. Since it's basically what the VDN situation is.

 

BTW, this team looks like it wants no part of the playoffs right now.

 

They only really look like they want it when they are at home. Although they showed some spunk in Toronto taking it to OT, but they shouldnt be having this many problems with Indiana.

 

 

[DBAHO]

The way the Bobcats are playing, the Bulls could still miss the playoffs.

 

Larry Brown's actually done a pretty good job over in Charlotte. They're got a nice starting core, but they're not very deep, and they gave up a future 1st for Ajinca (oops).

[Steve9347]

Maybe it wasn't a good counter, but it has as much merit as all of you the last couple pages. You guys sound like a bunch of whiny old men.

Dude, you are nuts.

 

You spend two days publicly backing VDN, and then he goes out there and coaches a terrible game, especially with 4 seconds left, and he shows exactly why he's the wrong fit for this team.

 

We needed two points, so his big play is once again to have Ben Gordon run around beyond the 3 point line (like the other coach didn't know this would happen). You CAN have set plays in the NBA, but VDN refuses to draw them up.

[Goober]

Dude, you are nuts.

Hopefully not pistachios, because then he might have salmonella.

[nitetrain8601]

Dude, you are nuts.

 

You spend two days publicly backing VDN, and then he goes out there and coaches a terrible game, especially with 4 seconds left, and he shows exactly why he's the wrong fit for this team.

 

We needed two points, so his big play is once again to have Ben Gordon run around beyond the 3 point line (like the other coach didn't know this would happen). You CAN have set plays in the NBA, but VDN refuses to draw them up.

 

Um, he usually gives it to Rose in an ISO situation and spreads the floor with Gordon. Rose for the most part is supposed to drive on Gordon's side to draw his defender in, and when the defender does come in, kick out to Gordon. If the guy stays at home, finish himself. So no, most coaches wouldn't expect that as evidenced by Granger being caught guarding Gordon.

[nitetrain8601]

As I posted before,

 

And I want him fired for my special reason, stated ad nauseum, that he just flat doesn't strike me as a real leader of men.

 

But I was thinking about something during the Bulls game last night. The Bulls, it appears, have a pretty darn good chance at finishing 41-41 with the 7th seed in the East. That constitutes an over-achievement in the eyes of the national media, local media and NBA fan base (if not many of the die-hards on this board). And heading into the post-season, they are probably the 4th or at worst 5th best team in the East, regardless of seeding - which enhances the over-achievement. And that thought got me thinking about a lot of the things we rightly blasted Skiles for. The Black has done a lot of the things we always wanted Skiles to do. Examples:

 

Tyrus Thomas: He's the main example. No point in rehashing how Skiles treated this guy, we all know of the inconsistencies that have delayed his development. The Black has done an excellent job showing consistent confidence in Thomas. The most telling example is that early in the season, following the 2-17 night against Boston and subsequent miserable shooting nights, The Black was under the gun for letting Thomas take that shot as part of the offense. VDN's response? "Tyrus worked very hard on that shot this summer, so its something I don't want to take away from him." (I couldn't find the article, but that is an accurate quote). The Black was ripped for this comment up and down on local sports radio and, as I recall, in at least one national publication (Bill Simmons, I think).

 

Who regrets it now? Has it not paid off? Who here wishes that Vinny had said "Look, Tyrus, its just not working. Just focus on hitting the glass and blocking shots"? How important is it now, in hindsight, either to the development of Thomas as a Bulls or to enhance his trade value, that The Black took this approach? How does that measure vs. a few bad in-game coaching decisions peppered througout the season? Big picture, what was more important?

 

Jo: There's less evidence to go by with Joakim. But we've certainly seen Vinny commit to Noah. Including offensively. Its obvious, and its been reported, that The Black is encouraging Jo to have an offensive game. To try to work the post and get a shot. And its working. Jo is converting much better around the rim, with both hands even, than ever before. And not just on dunks. But he's actually using the glass and improving his touch. Remember Skiles and Chandler? "Rebound and block shots, don't try to score." Granted, in Chandler's situation that's good advice because he's the worst offensive big man I've seen this side of Michael Ruffin and Bo Outlaw, but we all know Skiles would have taken the same approach with Jo.

 

It should also be noted that as to Jo and Tyrus both, that Vinny came down on both of them - hard - earlier in the season for not working hard enough and not caring enough. And they responded. So it wasn't all just puppy dogs and ice cream in the way he's handled these guys.

 

Rose: You're a rookie? At the point guard position? Our other point guard is a vet, team captain, and coach's dream whose been playing 35 minutes a game for 5 years? You absolutely suck balls at defense? No problem. Here's 71 starts and a consistent 36-37 minutes a night without requiring you to "earn it". Isn't this what we were all hoping would happen? Lots of coaches wouldn't do that on a team that didn't totally suck. Or even on a team that does totally suck. Earl Watson started over Russell Westbrook for 2 months.

 

Gordon: Has started all season and played the most minutes per game of his career. His minutes are almost never jerked around. How many of you have lamented contrary treatment of Ben for years?

 

Look, The Black has flaws. A number of them. But he's made some significant positive contributions in the exact area, with the exact guys, that many of us have been begging for for years: Trusting the young guys, and developing them. In the long term, isn't that the most important thing he could have done this season?

 

Read it from someone who absolutely still does not want VDN because of the whole "leader of men" thing. VDN has exceeded expectations and if it were a vet coach in here and he had the Bulls at the exact same spot, people would be ecstatic with the progress. Just because VDN doesn't have any experience, he is questioned no matter what. Hopefully next year, when VDN can make the offense more complex, and Derrick Rose actually trys to be aggressive on the defensive end or at least play the lanes for steals, we could be as good as a #4 seed IMO.

[knightni]

Krause could sure draft them.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-b...p&type=lgns

[rangercal]

Krause could sure draft them.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-b...p&type=lgns

 

Gotta love Corey BLUNT

[whitesoxfan101]

As I posted before,

 

 

 

Read it from someone who absolutely still does not want VDN because of the whole "leader of men" thing. VDN has exceeded expectations and if it were a vet coach in here and he had the Bulls at the exact same spot, people would be ecstatic with the progress. Just because VDN doesn't have any experience, he is questioned no matter what. Hopefully next year, when VDN can make the offense more complex, and Derrick Rose actually trys to be aggressive on the defensive end or at least play the lanes for steals, we could be as good as a #4 seed IMO.

 

To call out Derrick Rose specifically for his defense isn't fair simply because NOBODY on this team guards consistently. Rose has been very poor on defense obviously, but he's not alone at all. If VDN installs a more complex offense next year, that would help though. My main issue with him is that the offense is very bland, the out of timeout plays aren't great, and they don't try on defense. To me, if all of those things are going on and the coach has never coached before at any level, that screams to me that he's overwhelmed. Just my opinion though.

[Steve9347]

Gotta love Corey BLUNT

[DBAHO]

Sigh, Magic lost to Toronto, Boston gets bailed out by Ray Allen's sweet jump shooting, and we're 1 game back.

[nitetrain8601]

To call out Derrick Rose specifically for his defense isn't fair simply because NOBODY on this team guards consistently. Rose has been very poor on defense obviously, but he's not alone at all. If VDN installs a more complex offense next year, that would help though. My main issue with him is that the offense is very bland, the out of timeout plays aren't great, and they don't try on defense. To me, if all of those things are going on and the coach has never coached before at any level, that screams to me that he's overwhelmed. Just my opinion though.

 

I say Rose because you don't understand how terrible he is. He is ten times worse than Gordon was coming out. That's not an exaggeration and a lot of that has to do with him getting lazy on the defensive end. This was a problem in college and in high school. He coasts on the offensive end at times, but does it alot more on defense where at times, he just stands up and doesn't even get into the bent position.

 

He wanted to run his full offense this year, but guys weren't getting it and eventually Paxson advised him and the assistants to strip it completely down.

[Chisoxfn]

As someone that has done nothing but slam Gordon until this season (I tip my cap to him), I'll go out and say ROse is f***ing awful defensively. I put him at least on the level of Ben Gordon during the first couple years of his career, if not worse. I completely agree with your assessment Ninetrain.

[whitesoxfan101]

I say Rose because you don't understand how terrible he is. He is ten times worse than Gordon was coming out. That's not an exaggeration and a lot of that has to do with him getting lazy on the defensive end. This was a problem in college and in high school. He coasts on the offensive end at times, but does it alot more on defense where at times, he just stands up and doesn't even get into the bent position.

 

He wanted to run his full offense this year, but guys weren't getting it and eventually Paxson advised him and the assistants to strip it completely down.

 

Well we'll see about the offense, but I am not going to argue with what you said about Rose on defense (although 10 times worse is hyperbolic). The only response I have to it is that I think you are right that a lot of his problem is he is lazy on the defensive end, which is fixable. He's one of the few guys on the team I think could be a good defender if he cared, hopefully the Bulls can find a coach who he respects enough to try on defense for.

Edited April 3, 2009 by whitesoxfan101

[southsider2k5]

Well we'll see about the offense, but I am not going to argue with what you said about Rose on defense (although 10 times worse is hyperbolic). The only response I have to it is that I think you are right that a lot of his problem is he is lazy on the defensive end, which is fixable. He's one of the few guys on the team I think could be a good defender if he cared, hopefully the Bulls can find a coach who he respects enough to try on defense for.

 

If that is the case with Rose, f*** him. The guy is making millions of dollars as a #1 pick. If it takes a coach kissing his ass to make him play defense, screw him.

[DBAHO]

If that is the case with Rose, f*** him. The guy is making millions of dollars as a #1 pick. If it takes a coach kissing his ass to make him play defense, screw him.

To be fair to Rose, LeBron James never really cared about defense much until this season, and look at the Cavs now.

 

It might take a while for that type of message to sink in for Rose.

[GoodAsGould]

If that is the case with Rose, f*** him. The guy is making millions of dollars as a #1 pick. If it takes a coach kissing his ass to make him play defense, screw him.

 

Yeah, if thats your attitude about it you might as well not watch the NBA, most superstars cant be bothered to play defense, especially when they are in their early years.

[Balta1701]

To be fair to Rose, LeBron James never really cared about defense much until this season, and look at the Cavs now.

 

It might take a while for that type of message to sink in for Rose.

It's also not just that, especially with a young guy. There's only a finite amount of energy that one can expend during a game. Think about how dominant guys like Wade and Bryant were on defense in the Olympics. When they only had to play 15 minutes, they could come in and give maximum effort on both ends of the court for those 15 minutes and they overwhelmed people. Rose is going from playing less than 40 games this season to playing 86. He's 20 years old. It's going to take him a while to condition up to this level.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, if thats your attitude about it you might as well not watch the NBA, most superstars cant be bothered to play defense, especially when they are in their early years.

 

And that is probably why the NBA is my 4th favorite pro sport behind pretty much anything else.

[southsider2k5]

It's also not just that, especially with a young guy. There's only a finite amount of energy that one can expend during a game. Think about how dominant guys like Wade and Bryant were on defense in the Olympics. When they only had to play 15 minutes, they could come in and give maximum effort on both ends of the court for those 15 minutes and they overwhelmed people. Rose is going from playing less than 40 games this season to playing 86. He's 20 years old. It's going to take him a while to condition up to this level.

 

Which is way different than he won't play defense because he doesn't like his coach.

[Balta1701]

Which is way different than he won't play defense because he doesn't like his coach.

Although, that could be the case too. I probably wouldn't play defense for VDN either.

[nitetrain8601]

Well we'll see about the offense, but I am not going to argue with what you said about Rose on defense (although 10 times worse is hyperbolic). The only response I have to it is that I think you are right that a lot of his problem is he is lazy on the defensive end, which is fixable. He's one of the few guys on the team I think could be a good defender if he cared, hopefully the Bulls can find a coach who he respects enough to try on defense for.

 

Nah, it really is 10 times worse. Gordon's problem was that he had terrible footwork, was not strong enough to compensate for his height, and basically sucked because of technique. He got disciplined by Skiles and improved learning from Kirk. It's been a vast vast improvement. He uses his whole body and that's why, even though there are taller SG's he does match up with, not many back him down.

 

Rose's problem is that he tends to get lazy. I know for a fact his high school coach would go nuts about this, but it's just his personality. He also had a high tendency to coast on the offensive end. Tons of times where he would bring the ball up, dump the ball to a guard, and stick in a corner he does now.

 

If that is the case with Rose, f*** him. The guy is making millions of dollars as a #1 pick. If it takes a coach kissing his ass to make him play defense, screw him.

 

I don't think a coach kissing his butt will do anything. Coach Calipari was his biggest supporter that wasn't a family member and always tried to kiss his butt, but eventually he saw that he couldn't change him. He stated as well that Derrick has a tendency to lose interest and focus during the game. Like he'll have a guy he could easily blow past everytime, but instead of driving, he'll just jab step around the perimeter. Or he'll have a team packing the lane, and instead of kicking it out, he won't recognize what the other team is doing, and continue to drive. For defense, I haven't met a coach who has yet stated Derrick can't dominate on defense, but it's very very hard to get him interested enough to play. VDN was sending him a message benching him twice in the 4th because he thought it was time to start expecting effort since it was the second half of the season. Paxson basically undermined him on this and asked for DR to be in there no matter what.

 

[Chisoxfn]

On a sidenote, if the Bulls lose Ben Gordon, I want them to sign Iverson to a contract and let him be a huge player off the bench. I don't know if AI would agree to that, but I'd be okay with it if he was. I really want Ben Gordon back and if the Bulls can find a way to bring him back while still being able to make a max offer at one of the big crop of Bosh/Amare/Wade/LBJ, than do it.

[rangercal]

On a sidenote, if the Bulls lose Ben Gordon, I want them to sign Iverson to a contract and let him be a huge player off the bench. I don't know if AI would agree to that, but I'd be okay with it if he was. I really want Ben Gordon back and if the Bulls can find a way to bring him back while still being able to make a max offer at one of the big crop of Bosh/Amare/Wade/LBJ, than do it.

 

How about a 1 year deal.

 

 

1) AI gets to improve his stock for one last multi-year deal

2) It does not hurt the 2010 sweepstakes for the Bulls