Official 2008-2009 NBA Thread

[ZoomSlowik]

Phoenix and Dallas just don't seem to "get it". I thought it was Christmas when I actually heard someone wanted Shaq. Then to give up an expiring contract with a good player attached? Just crazy.

 

I love this old Bill Simmons' article about how Phoenix has been one of the more mis-managed teams in the league thanks to their attempts to avoid the luxury tax at all costs and how it affected their roster since they came to prominence (though they did find a couple of goofy ways to add salary). They found a way to turn a roster with 4 All-Star caliber players into a merely competent team that wasn't/isn't a real title threat when all is said and done.

 

The End of the "Critically Acclaimed" Suns

Edited December 15, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[DBAHO]

Dwight Howard's knee has to be concerning.

 

As for Nash, I doubt the Knicks have much interest in 2010. He'll be, what? 36?

The Knicks are going to have basically $40M in cap room come 2010.

 

I don't think they'll get Lebron, but I'd say they'll get either Bosh or Amare.

 

Nash I think would sign for the MLE. He spends his off-season living in Manhattan, he loves D'Antoni, so it's basically a perfect fit. Him and Duhon rotating at the PG spot would probably be the best PG combo in the league.

 

I think they're just being careful with Dwight, nothing serious. With the way the team is playing anyways (beating Utah on the road without Dwight), there's no need to rush him back.

 

SVG has to be COTY right now I'd say.

[whitesoxbrian]

Isn't Danny Granger a 2010 FA, too? I'd love to get him, as a Bulls fan.

 

EDIT- never mind, I forgot he just got a 4 (maybe 5?) year extension.

Edited December 16, 2008 by whitesoxbrian

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Suns' frontcourt is nowhere near as bad as the Bulls' frontcourt, but it's not exactly taking them anywhere either. As Steve said, Amare is an elite scorer but a mediocre defender at best. He can be a major building block for a team, but adding an old, out of shape plodder next to him that sits out most back-to-backs isn't doing him any favors. Because of Shaq they basically have to play at a slower pace even though they're a subpar defensive team and still have the horses to push the pace. He's putting up numbers, but isn't helping them win games. Plus they really only go 3-deep with actual post players, so when Shaq does sit out they're forced to go small. That's a problem when he can't handle heavy minutes anymore (playing about 28 a game in Phoenix) and can go down at any minute with his lack of conditioning and injury history. Robin Lopez doesn't really have the experience or the talent to be counted on for heavy minutes, so they're probably better off playing Barnes as a PF, which is a scary thought. Dudley is a marginal player at best, and is really more of a SF.

 

I still don't consider any frontcourt that features Amare and Shaq, even Shaq at this stage in his career, a mess. Flawed? I can roll with that. But hardly a mess. The pile of crap that we've called a frontcourt the last three years or so is what I call a mess. Robin Lopez has the size/athleticism to develop into a pretty solid backup, IMO. He's already shown brief flashes. Dudley was playing pretty well in a limited amount of time for the Bobcats. But, yeah, he is more of a SF (atleast from a size standpoint). So will see how they'll work him in.

 

For all the flak Shaq gets now, the guy is averaging 15.5/8.5/1.5/60% in less than 28 MPG (that doesn't include the 23 and 12 he went for tonight). Heck, his FT% is even up. Isn't helping them win games? Last I checked, they weren't 5-18. They're 15-10 in an ultra competitive conference. And he's been a big reason for that.

 

Basically they killed their team when they picked up Shaq, it's clear that he's nowhere near an impact player anymore and now they're stuck with trying to adjust their approach to try to make him useful. Granted his deal expires after next season, but so does Nash's contract and Amare can opt out, meaning that they may need a total overhaul and can't compete in the interim. That sure sounds like a mess to me. Their one saving grace is that if they play their cards right and don't move Amare (their one good, young piece) they can add a sizeable contract in 2010 and still potentially retain Amare and Nash with Richardson still there for another year if they're willing to go well into luxury tax territory (though they haven't in the past).

 

Killed their team? You mean the team that got their asses waxed by the Spurs every May? The team that couldn't even reach the finals one time? The Suns of 2005-first half of 2008 were very entertaining and fun to watch. But they couldn't win anything when it counted. They tried something different with Shaq last year and it didn't work. Oh, well. Shaq is still very much an impact player. He's just not what he was at his peak. And that's to be expected. Shaq or not, the Suns in a year or two were going to have to pretty much start over with Amare as the focal point anyway.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

I love this old Bill Simmons' article about how Phoenix has been one of the more mis-managed teams in the league thanks to their attempts to avoid the luxury tax at all costs and how it affected their roster since they came to prominence (though they did find a couple of goofy ways to add salary). They found a way to turn a roster with 4 All-Star caliber players into a merely competent team that wasn't/isn't a real title threat when all is said and done.

 

The End of the "Critically Acclaimed" Suns

 

They weren't a title threat when they had those 4 all-star caliber players, either. No matter how much Steve Nash continues to whine about the trades.

 

[rangercal]

They weren't a title threat when they had those 4 all-star caliber players, either. No matter how much Steve Nash continues to whine about the trades.

 

2 years ago they were. remember the amare suspension?

[Jordan4life_2007]

2 years ago they were. remember the amare suspension?

 

I remember. I still think they lose. The Spurs were clearly the better team that series. Just like they have been the better team pretty much every year the two teams have squared off.

 

Change of subject: how freaking good are the Celtics? Championship hangover my ass. I love watching them play. The effort and intensity they put into the defensive side of the ball is a breath of fresh air. We all know about the big 3. But Rondo and Perkins are developing into pretty damn good players in their own right. I thought they would miss James Posey, and they still might. But they're clearly the class of the NBA and should be big favorites come playoff time.

[rangercal]

I remember. I still think they lose. The Spurs were clearly the better team that series. Just like they have been the better team pretty much every year the two teams have squared off.

 

Change of subject: how freaking good are the Celtics? Championship hangover my ass. I love watching them play. The effort and intensity they put into the defensive side of the ball is a breath of fresh air. We all know about the big 3. But Rondo and Perkins are developing into pretty damn good players in their own right. I thought they would miss James Posey, and they still might. But they're clearly the class of the NBA and should be big favorites come playoff time.

 

This is the first team I take seriously when it comes to approaching 72-10. If they start off 41-3 or better and I will really start to sweat.

[ZoomSlowik]

I still don't consider any frontcourt that features Amare and Shaq, even Shaq at this stage in his career, a mess. Flawed? I can roll with that. But hardly a mess. The pile of crap that we've called a frontcourt the last three years or so is what I call a mess. Robin Lopez has the size/athleticism to develop into a pretty solid backup, IMO. He's already shown brief flashes. Dudley was playing pretty well in a limited amount of time for the Bobcats. But, yeah, he is more of a SF (atleast from a size standpoint). So will see how they'll work him in.

 

For all the flak Shaq gets now, the guy is averaging 15.5/8.5/1.5/60% in less than 28 MPG (that doesn't include the 23 and 12 he went for tonight). Heck, his FT% is even up. Isn't helping them win games? Last I checked, they weren't 5-18. They're 15-10 in an ultra competitive conference. And he's been a big reason for that.

 

 

 

Killed their team? You mean the team that got their asses waxed by the Spurs every May? The team that couldn't even reach the finals one time? The Suns of 2005-first half of 2008 were very entertaining and fun to watch. But they couldn't win anything when it counted. They tried something different with Shaq last year and it didn't work. Oh, well. Shaq is still very much an impact player. He's just not what he was at his peak. And that's to be expected. Shaq or not, the Suns in a year or two were going to have to pretty much start over with Amare as the focal point anyway.

 

Yeah, Shaq is killing their team. They changed their entire philosophy for a guy that is their third best player (well, at this point probably 4th with Richardson on the roster) and doesn't even play 30 minutes a game. They've never been a good defensive team, but at least before they could run and gun teams to death and win games 110-100 with regularity, now they have an average scoring margin of 0.4. They went from a team that consistently won high 50's/low 60' team to a team that'll struggle to crack 50 with Shaq. Even before the deal last year they were 38-16, which is an over .700 clip. The Suns used to be an exciting, highly competitive team, now they're highly ordinary. They still have Nash and Amare so they're not a total joke, but despite having two guys that are consistent All-Stars at high demand positions they're not particularly good. Before they at least gave the decent teams a run for their money and if not for some bad luck (Johnson getting hurt, the Stoudemire suspension) they may have been able to make a lot more noise, now they're probably not even making it out of the first round. They could have been far better off as a franchise, Shaq was just the last nail in the coffin.

Edited December 16, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[ZoomSlowik]

They weren't a title threat when they had those 4 all-star caliber players, either. No matter how much Steve Nash continues to whine about the trades.

 

If not for the Johnson injury they may well have beaten the Spurs in the 2005 playoffs (the Spurs won 4-1, but every game was within 10 points). Things went similarly in 07 and 08, the games were very close but the Suns didn't have enough to finish the games off. The Spurs haven't exactly blown them out with regularity, though they obviously won the majority of the games. If they had kept him instead of stupidly signing Q for that much money and adding Marcus Banks, things are DRASTICALLY different. Johnson has become a pretty dangerous scorer in Atlanta, imagine what he could do if he had Nash getting him open instead of having to carry his team. There's a very sizeable difference between him and guys like Barbosa and Bell. Then add in basically giving away 1st round picks that could have infused some serious low-cost talent to bolster their depth so they wouldn't have had to run Nash and Marion into the ground and things look pretty damn good. They were already one of the top handful of teams in the league even after selling off Johnson on the cheap. Even forgetting about Johnson and the draft picks that turned into Deng, Rondo and Rudy Fernandez, they were playing a fair amount better with Marion instead of Shaq, and Richardson would have been a great fit with D'Antoni. Obviously they did a lot of things right to get to that level in the first place, but since then things haven't gone particularly well.

 

And by the way, this further solidifies my title as king of the thread-jacking rant that no one really cares about.

Edited December 16, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[SoxFan1]

Remember when people were clamoring about how much Aldridge and Hawes sucked and how Thomas and Noah were much better picks?

[GoodAsGould]

Remember when people were clamoring about how much Aldridge and Hawes sucked and how Thomas and Noah were much better picks?

 

no? atleast not here for most part.

[whitesoxfan101]

Remember when people were clamoring about how much Aldridge and Hawes sucked and how Thomas and Noah were much better picks?

 

When did that happen? There were a lot of people (including myself) who were very skeptical about Hawes (and I'd still like to see a guy 7'1 shoot higher than the mid 40's percentwise from the field), but I think just about everybody agreed that Noah is garbage and trading Aldridge for Thomas was a HUGE mistake by the Bulls.

Edited December 16, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[Steve9347]

This is the first team I take seriously when it comes to approaching 72-10. If they start off 41-3 or better and I will really start to sweat.

I'd put any money down that they won't go 72-10. 70-12, maybe, but 72-10 is not happening.

[Steve9347]

If not for the Johnson injury they may well have beaten the Spurs in the 2005 playoffs (the Spurs won 4-1, but every game was within 10 points). Things went similarly in 07 and 08, the games were very close but the Suns didn't have enough to finish the games off. The Spurs haven't exactly blown them out with regularity, though they obviously won the majority of the games. If they had kept him instead of stupidly signing Q for that much money and adding Marcus Banks, things are DRASTICALLY different. Johnson has become a pretty dangerous scorer in Atlanta, imagine what he could do if he had Nash getting him open instead of having to carry his team. There's a very sizeable difference between him and guys like Barbosa and Bell. Then add in basically giving away 1st round picks that could have infused some serious low-cost talent to bolster their depth so they wouldn't have had to run Nash and Marion into the ground and things look pretty damn good. They were already one of the top handful of teams in the league even after selling off Johnson on the cheap. Even forgetting about Johnson and the draft picks that turned into Deng, Rondo and Rudy Fernandez, they were playing a fair amount better with Marion instead of Shaq, and Richardson would have been a great fit with D'Antoni. Obviously they did a lot of things right to get to that level in the first place, but since then things haven't gone particularly well.

 

And by the way, this further solidifies my title as king of the thread-jacking rant that no one really cares about.

All the good happened before Steve Kerr got the GM job, I believe.

[whitesoxfan101]

All the good happened before Steve Kerr got the GM job, I believe.

 

Yeah Kerr has had his share of problems there. It's boom or bust for the Suns right now though, as they are a very old and very expensive team in terms of their core.

[SoxFan1]

no? atleast not here for most part.

Haha, funny you should say that. You were the one calling Hawes a stiff, and a career back-up at best who couldn't rebound.

 

When did that happen? There were a lot of people (including myself) who were very skeptical about Hawes (and I'd still like to see a guy 7'1 shoot higher than the mid 40's percentwise from the field), but I think just about everybody agreed that Noah is garbage and trading Aldridge for Thomas was a HUGE mistake by the Bulls.

I went through the old NBA threads and draft threads last night, some VERY good stuff in there. There was A LOT of praise for both the Noah and Tyrus picks. Hindsight is 20/20...

[SoxFan1]

Charlotte has last 7 straight and is playing without their best player Gerald Wallace. f***ing pathetic.

[RockRaines]

Charlotte has last 7 straight and is playing without their best player Gerald Wallace. f***ing pathetic.

Good win for the refs tonight.

[SoxFan1]

Good win for the refs tonight.

The phantom foul on Augustin's 3 pointer was horrific, but it should have never gotten to that point. We had the opportunity to put it away in the 1st quarter and we didn't, then we sucked the rest of the game.

[RockRaines]

The phantom foul on Augustin's 3 pointer was horrific, but it should have never gotten to that point. We had the opportunity to put it away in the 1st quarter and we didn't, then we sucked the rest of the game.

How about the consecutive fouls on 8 possesions in a row and zero calls on the other end. I agree we should have put it away before that, but the Refs handed the home team the game.

[whitesoxfan101]

Refs did hand them the game, but it should not have been NEARLY that close. If that were a game against a good team and they lost like that, I'd be upset, but it should not come to that against Charlotte. That's the Bulls 4th loss this year to a pathetic opponent (at Memphis, vs. Philly who was pathetic at the time, at Charlotte, at Milwaukee). I thought and still tend to think this would be a .500 team that snuck into the playoffs, but there aren't going to be enough wins on the schedule to get around 40 if you lose many more games like that. Tonight was also a SCARY example of how bad this team would be without Derrick Rose. Tonight was really his first God awful game (I can think of one other poor game he had, but not just horrible like tonight) and you saw where this team would be if he weren't around.

 

I went through the old NBA threads and draft threads last night, some VERY good stuff in there. There was A LOT of praise for both the Noah and Tyrus picks. Hindsight is 20/20...

 

I get most stuff wrong, but I know I despised both of those picks. I might have TRIED to be positive about them in those past threads (doubt that even), but those were 2 rare cases of me being right.

Edited December 17, 2008 by whitesoxfan101

[GoodAsGould]

Haha, funny you should say that. You were the one calling Hawes a stiff, and a career back-up at best who couldn't rebound.

 

 

I went through the old NBA threads and draft threads last night, some VERY good stuff in there. There was A LOT of praise for both the Noah and Tyrus picks. Hindsight is 20/20...

 

I dont exactly remember all that, Im still not a big fan of Hawes anyways, but definitely never was behind Noah.

[lostfan]

I didn't post here then, but I understood the reasoning behind the Thomas/Aldridge trade, even if I didn't necessarily agree with it. I was really withholding judgment on it, but it didn't make much sense to trade away a solid finished product who fits your immediate need for a raw talent, even if it's a high ceiling type of player. Because you're hoping the raw talent pans out, and if it does, what do you have? Probably something you've already drafted (Aldridge).

 

The Noah pick, that one was just silly to me. Noah seemed to be a different version of Ben Wallace, except faster and not a black hole/liability on offense. Which is fine, if the frontcourt is already solid... but it wasn't, and isn't.

[DBAHO]

Noah was basically going to be a poor man's Anderson Varejao, and nothing has changed there it seems.