Official 2008-2009 NBA Thread

[Brian]

Of course, Beasley also did the one thing this season that Rose couldn’t.

 

He beat Kansas.

 

Yeah, AT Kansas State. Bad ending to an informative read.

[daa84]

Yeah, AT Kansas State. Bad ending to an informative read.

he also put up 39 and 11 in the loss at Kansas

[SoxFan1]

Draft Derrick Rose with the #1. Then pick Joey Dorsey or DJ White in the 2nd.

 

Trade Hinrich, Gooden, Tyrus for Elton Brand and Brevin Knight then trade Gordon (S&T) and Hughes for Michael Redd.

 

PG Rose/Knight

SG Redd/Sefolosha

SF Deng/Nocioni

PF Brand/FA/2nd Round PF

C Noah/Gray

 

Highly unlikely? Maybe...maybe not. But Brand and Redd are definitely possibilities for the Bulls.

[GoodAsGould]

Id like to keep Tyrus if possible, think he would be a good fit with Derrek Rose. But if there is any chance we can get Michael Redd than I am all for it. We can kind of be in the mold of the Hornets. Rose = Paul, Redd = Peja, Deng = West, and Tyrus = Chandler.

[knightni]

Am I the only person who likes how Drew Gooden plays?

[Balta1701]

Am I the only person who likes how Drew Gooden plays?

He would have been an excellent addition to the 2005-2006-2007 Chicago Bulls and would have fit their style of play very well.

 

My problem is, I really don't want him on the 2008 on Chicago Bulls. He's an average post player. That'd be an upgrade from sticking Noc et al. in that position like we did for 2 years.

 

But the way this roster evolves, one of a few things is going to happen. Either if he stays, he'd slow down the team and take minutes away from Tyrus and Noah, which I didn't like last year and will like even less if they draft Rose (thus, if he's getting 30 minutes a game, he continues to prevent development of the kids), or he's going to be taking playing time away from Beasley if we draft him. The worst damn thing Boylan did in a third of the games he helped the team lose was stick in a lineup with Gooden and like 4 guards. I really never want to see that again.

 

On top of that, he's an expiring contract, which is always useful. But if we draft Rose, I want to see the Kiddy lineup with Tyrus, Noah, Deng, and Thabo/Gordon, and I want to see if they can develop that in to a high octane offense that wouldn't fit Gooden's talents. If they draft Beasley, then I don't want him getting 25 minutes a game while Beasley sits on the bench.

[SoxFan1]

The Tyrus Thomas love makes me sick.

 

Id like to keep Tyrus if possible, think he would be a good fit with Derrek Rose. But if there is any chance we can get Michael Redd than I am all for it. We can kind of be in the mold of the Hornets. Rose = Paul, Redd = Peja, Deng = West, and Tyrus = Chandler.

We'd be a very, VERY poor mans version of the Hornets. Rose isn't going to be CP3 right away. Redd and Peja are a good comparison. Deng = West? Don't think so. West is a PF, though he shoots a bit from outside, and he averaged 20+ a game. NO doesn't have anyone like Deng, and the Bulls don't have anyone close to West. And Tyrus sucks.

[GoodAsGould]

the first year we might be a poor man's version while Rose adjusts to NBA life, but in long term he has a higher ceiling. I compared West and Deng only because they would both be guys who games are greatly enhanced by a PG and prob have similar stat lines. Michael Redd is better than Peja so in that comparison we are coming off ahead and you are way too tough on Tyrus. How effective was Chandler on the Bulls..... Tyrus has more offensive potential and defense is work in progress, already has great help D with the blocks and whatnot.

[SoxFan1]

How effective was Chandler on the Bulls

He got into a lot of foul trouble, but he was always a good defender, and in his last season with the Bulls, he was great. When he got hurt in the playoffs, we were done.

 

Tyrus has more offensive potential

I acknowledge that. But potential doesn't mean squat.

 

defense is work in progress

He is a terrible defender. Nowhere close to Tyson's level.

 

already has great help D with the blocks and whatnot.

Blocks. That's it. He attempts to block everything, and with his jumping ability, he'll run into a few. His offensive output in 2 seasons is in the negatives because he gives up more via goaltending than he scores. Hell, even Ben Gordon isn't [i[that[/i] bad at help defense. Man on man, Gordon and Tyrus are the worst on the Bulls.

 

Derrick Rose (Freshman @ Memphis): 14.9 ppg, 4.7 apg

Chris Paul (Freshman @ Wake Forest): 14.8 ppg, 5.9 apg

 

Rose is a better NBA prospect coming out of college than Chris Paul and Deron Williams were, but people are expecting him to be a superstar as a rookie.

[ZoomSlowik]

People forget how productive Tyson was at times for the Bulls because he had a bad 05/06 season before he was dealt. In his second year (02/03) he posted a PER of 15.89 and in his 4th year (04/05) he posted a 16.47 PER. Considering he's pretty offensively challenged that's fairly impressive, and if he hadn't been hurt most of 03/04 there might have been another solid season. He hasn't really played THAT much better in New Orleans (17.06 and 17.56 PER's, reasonably big difference but not colossal), really the only differences are a lower foul rate (which allows him to play more) and a higher field goal percentage (which you can obviously attribute largely to Paul).

Edited May 24, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[GoodAsGould]

quit slurping Chandler, yes he was a better defender but he is way more ineffective offensively than Tyrus. Without Paul he would avg. 5 ppg. Also have you considered most of the time when called for goaltending the likelyhood of that ball going in anyways was pretty high. With a guy like Rose leading the offense Tyrus is prob going to avg. more points just next year more than Chandler ever did.

 

I used to be a big Chandler fan but between you and Hammer im starting to dislike him. One would think he was the greatest thing on Earth with the amount of love he gets.

 

Also, Chandler was avg. 5 points a game his last season with the bulls so dont know where you were going with that, the only reason we struggled without him was because we had nobody competent behind him to play. Chandlers only real solid year was the 04-05 one but if given the playing time I have no doubts that Tyrus can match or top his point output and block output he had that year. Maybe not the 10 boards but around 7-8 isnt out of the question.

[ZoomSlowik]

quit slurping Chandler, yes he was a better defender but he is way more ineffective offensively than Tyrus. Without Paul he would avg. 5 ppg. Also have you considered most of the time when called for goaltending the likelyhood of that ball going in anyways was pretty high. With a guy like Rose leading the offense Tyrus is prob going to avg. more points just next year more than Chandler ever did.

 

I used to be a big Chandler fan but between you and Hammer im starting to dislike him. One would think he was the greatest thing on Earth with the amount of love he gets.

 

Also, Chandler was avg. 5 points a game his last season with the bulls so dont know where you were going with that, the only reason we struggled without him was because we had nobody competent behind him to play. Chandlers only real solid year was the 04-05 one but if given the playing time I have no doubts that Tyrus can match or top his point output and block output he had that year. Maybe not the 10 boards but around 7-8 isnt out of the question.

 

Tyrus was an awful offensive player this year, he shot 42.3% from the floor and his 48.7% on shots in the basket area was among the worst in the league. Even Kirk Hinrich hit 55% of his shots in the immediate basket area, and he's not exactly a great finisher either. Even on the Bulls Tyson shot around 50%, and it's not like either of them takes a lot of high difficulty attempts. Blocks are only part of defensive play, a lot of times the smart play is to just stick your arms up and make the shot more difficult while getting in better position to get the rebound. Tyrus hasn't figured that out yet.

Edited May 24, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[SoxFan1]

quit slurping Chandler, yes he was a better defender but he is way more ineffective offensively than Tyrus. Without Paul he would avg. 5 ppg. Also have you considered most of the time when called for goaltending the likelyhood of that ball going in anyways was pretty high. With a guy like Rose leading the offense Tyrus is prob going to avg. more points just next year more than Chandler ever did.

 

I used to be a big Chandler fan but between you and Hammer im starting to dislike him. One would think he was the greatest thing on Earth with the amount of love he gets.

 

Also, Chandler was avg. 5 points a game his last season with the bulls so dont know where you were going with that, the only reason we struggled without him was because we had nobody competent behind him to play. Chandlers only real solid year was the 04-05 one but if given the playing time I have no doubts that Tyrus can match or top his point output and block output he had that year. Maybe not the 10 boards but around 7-8 isnt out of the question.

Tyrus Thomas has yet to average 7 ppg in his 2 seasons. Chandler was pushing 10 his 2nd season in the league. Without Paul he'd average 5 a game, yet without Paul, he had 2 seasons over 8 ppg. That's more than can be said for Tyrus in his first 2 seasons.

 

You're complaining about the Chandler love...have you seen the mass slurpage Tyrus gets? He gets a dunk and half of Chicago busts a f***ing nut. He's a terrible finisher. He has a terrible attitude. He has an inconsistent jump shot with zero offensive moves. He is undersized as a PF. He can't play man to man defense. The only thing going for his is athleticism. Look where that got Darius Miles, Stromile Swift, etc.

[GoodAsGould]

well, we will just have to agree to disagree, Im not debating the pick.. I actually wanted to keep Aldridge and was pissed initialy. I just think that Tyrus has skills/athletiscm to excell in this league and a pg like Derek Rose is going to up his game immensely. I really think if we can add Redd to this team that will be enough to make us an instant playoff team and depending on how Rose is a pretty good one.

 

Ideally id want to lose Hinrich/Gordon for Redd and maybe a future pick.. not sure what it would take. But as long as we keep Rose, Deng, and Tyrus I think I would trade whoever. Redd would be the consistent scorer that we lacked with Gordon who was hot one night worthless next and Deng would excel in the secondary role.

[rangercal]

Tyrus Thomas has yet to average 7 ppg in his 2 seasons. Chandler was pushing 10 his 2nd season in the league. Without Paul he'd average 5 a game, yet without Paul, he had 2 seasons over 8 ppg. That's more than can be said for Tyrus in his first 2 seasons.

 

Wow, you can't be serious. You are better than this. You are seriously going to compare the 2 situations? You had to have been a fan in 02-03 to know the Bulls had NO depth and had to rely on Chandler to get minutes. Tyrus had to split time with all the other 3's and 4's (deng,Noc Gooden/smith) Tyrus played 6.5 mins less per game. The coaching staff has been brutal too. How many times have Tyrus or even Noah had really good games and then the next they are Benched? Please explain that. Tyrus never had a chance this year. You can not compare apples and oranges. I doubt Pax has given up on Tyrus. The only way he is gone is if it is in a deal that he can't refuse.

[rangercal]

well, we will just have to agree to disagree, Im not debating the pick.. I actually wanted to keep Aldridge and was pissed initialy. I just think that Tyrus has skills/athletiscm to excell in this league and a pg like Derek Rose is going to up his game immensely. I really think if we can add Redd to this team that will be enough to make us an instant playoff team and depending on how Rose is a pretty good one.

 

Ideally id want to lose Hinrich/Gordon for Redd and maybe a future pick.. not sure what it would take. But as long as we keep Rose, Deng, and Tyrus I think I would trade whoever. Redd would be the consistent scorer that we lacked with Gordon who was hot one night worthless next and Deng would excel in the secondary role.

Tyrus and Rose together would be a lot of fun to watch. I can not wait to see what is on the horizon.

[rangercal]

Tyrus was an awful offensive player this year, he shot 42.3% from the floor and his 48.7% on shots in the basket area was among the worst in the league. Even Kirk Hinrich hit 55% of his shots in the immediate basket area, and he's not exactly a great finisher either. Even on the Bulls Tyson shot around 50%, and it's not like either of them takes a lot of high difficulty attempts. Blocks are only part of defensive play, a lot of times the smart play is to just stick your arms up and make the shot more difficult while getting in better position to get the rebound. Tyrus hasn't figured that out yet.

Maybe because every time Tyrus shot over 50% he got BENCHED the next day. Kind of confusing for a 20 year old. I want to see Tyrus have consistent minutes before I decide what he is.

[Rowand44]

Maybe because every time Tyrus shot over 50% he got BENCHED the next day. Kind of confusing for a 20 year old. I want to see Tyrus have consistent minutes before I decide what he is.

The same crap happened with Tyson when he was here.

[GoodAsGould]

The same crap happened with Tyson when he was here.

Not really, Tyson was benched the next day because he would commit 3 fouls in his first 5 minutes in the game. Tyrus Thomas has some of the same problems but not as much.

[RockRaines]

Tyrus and Rose together would be a lot of fun to watch. I can not wait to see what is on the horizon.

Tyrus has great potential. He can sky over big men and also is showing a decent outside touch from the baseline. If he can consistently knock those shots down and play the two man game with Rose, the rest of the team will feed off of that game.

[Balta1701]

I'm impressed, it only took a few pages for this to turn in to the "Tyrus rules/Tyrus stinks" discussion. Just to state the obvious...there are going to be people unhappy with TT, and there are going to be people who like him. Both sides can spout out comparisons, stats, and info. But if all we do is get bogged down in that back and forth, then this thread's going to just get annoying. Let's try to avoid that ok?

[Balta1701]

Derrick Rose (Freshman @ Memphis): 14.9 ppg, 4.7 apg

Chris Paul (Freshman @ Wake Forest): 14.8 ppg, 5.9 apg

 

Rose is a better NBA prospect coming out of college than Chris Paul and Deron Williams were, but people are expecting him to be a superstar as a rookie.

So, this statement is one I agree with, and I think it illustrates a lot of the problems with the trade for a vet scenarios. Brand is 29, has been in the league for about 9 years, is coming off a major injury, and has a lot of miles on his body. Redd turns 29 later this year, but has played 8 seasons.

 

Both of them are right around the age where they're nearing the end of their performance peak (like 26-29 years of age). Now, if we were trying to assemble a team to compete this year, both of them are solid options. But you just made the key point. No matter how good a prospect Rose is...even if he wins the ROY over say, Oden, and has a very good first year, if he's going to develop in to a star, that's still a couple years away. He'll be the equivalent of a 20 year old college sophomore next year.

 

If you pack guys like Brand and Redd on this team, you make a run at the conference finals next year, but then as Rose develops, you expect to see them starting to go downhill, get hurt more, and just be less productive per unit time.

 

This is one of the reasons, whether or not you like hte particular guys, that I like the "all recent draftee" lineup of Tyrus, Deng, Noah, Rose, and Gordon/Thabo, because you can grow them together. None of them are at their peak ages yet, and when Rose does start developing and going upwards, so will the rest of them.

[illinilaw08]

So, this statement is one I agree with, and I think it illustrates a lot of the problems with the trade for a vet scenarios. Brand is 29, has been in the league for about 9 years, is coming off a major injury, and has a lot of miles on his body. Redd turns 29 later this year, but has played 8 seasons.

 

Both of them are right around the age where they're nearing the end of their performance peak (like 26-29 years of age). Now, if we were trying to assemble a team to compete this year, both of them are solid options. But you just made the key point. No matter how good a prospect Rose is...even if he wins the ROY over say, Oden, and has a very good first year, if he's going to develop in to a star, that's still a couple years away. He'll be the equivalent of a 20 year old college sophomore next year.

 

If you pack guys like Brand and Redd on this team, you make a run at the conference finals next year, but then as Rose develops, you expect to see them starting to go downhill, get hurt more, and just be less productive per unit time.

 

This is one of the reasons, whether or not you like hte particular guys, that I like the "all recent draftee" lineup of Tyrus, Deng, Noah, Rose, and Gordon/Thabo, because you can grow them together. None of them are at their peak ages yet, and when Rose does start developing and going upwards, so will the rest of them.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. That's the big issue with this draft for the Bulls - they aren't picking to win the title next year; rather they are picking the guy that sets them up to win 1 or 2 titles in the next decade.

 

Should the Bulls pick Rose, remember how bad Deron Williams was as a rookie in Utah - Rose may have those same struggles his first year, but the sky is the limit for him potential wise.

 

As an aside, does anyone here think Mike Miller could be an option in a trade? If the Bulls are looking to build around a point guard, they need to compile as many shooters as they possibly can and there aren't many better than Miller.

 

[jackie hayes]

So, this statement is one I agree with, and I think it illustrates a lot of the problems with the trade for a vet scenarios. Brand is 29, has been in the league for about 9 years, is coming off a major injury, and has a lot of miles on his body. Redd turns 29 later this year, but has played 8 seasons.

 

Both of them are right around the age where they're nearing the end of their performance peak (like 26-29 years of age). Now, if we were trying to assemble a team to compete this year, both of them are solid options. But you just made the key point. No matter how good a prospect Rose is...even if he wins the ROY over say, Oden, and has a very good first year, if he's going to develop in to a star, that's still a couple years away. He'll be the equivalent of a 20 year old college sophomore next year.

 

If you pack guys like Brand and Redd on this team, you make a run at the conference finals next year, but then as Rose develops, you expect to see them starting to go downhill, get hurt more, and just be less productive per unit time.

 

This is one of the reasons, whether or not you like hte particular guys, that I like the "all recent draftee" lineup of Tyrus, Deng, Noah, Rose, and Gordon/Thabo, because you can grow them together. None of them are at their peak ages yet, and when Rose does start developing and going upwards, so will the rest of them.

The other thing to think about, though, is the contract. There's still a lot of uncertainty about the big fa class a couple years down the line, but if you get an older guy whose contract comes off the books soon, it puts you in a position to offer the max money that LeBron, Wade, and Bosh will command. And as much as I like Deng's potential as a 'complementary star', I can't help but think that that group you mention is just not good enough to win a title. Not now, not in two or three years, even. But with a core of Wade, Rose, Deng -- who knows, but I'd like our odds.

[Balta1701]

The other thing to think about, though, is the contract. There's still a lot of uncertainty about the big fa class a couple years down the line, but if you get an older guy whose contract comes off the books soon, it puts you in a position to offer the max money that LeBron, Wade, and Bosh will command. And as much as I like Deng's potential as a 'complementary star', I can't help but think that that group you mention is just not good enough to win a title. Not now, not in two or three years, even. But with a core of Wade, Rose, Deng -- who knows, but I'd like our odds.

Well, in terms of freeing up cap space, there's a couple things the Bulls have going for them if they want to go that route. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but would 2010 be the summer where Tyrus and Thabo become RFA's? That would mean that if we still held them, that would help free up cap space because they wouldn't be under contract right when the bidding starts. Noah would still be on his rookie deal, ditto Rose.

 

The Bulls already hold 1 big expiring contract for that year in Larry Hughes. If you hold Hughes that covers a chunk of it. Gooden expires at the end of this year so he's no worry either

 

There are 4 problem guys though. Gordon, Deng, Hinrich, and Nocioni. Assume that the first 2 pick up $10 mil a year extensions this year, and even with the way Hinrich's contract is structured, that's going to be a $40 million chunk right there.

 

If you could turn 2 of those 4 in to an expiring deal for that year, that sets you up. But you can't hold more than 3 of them and expect to have the room.

 

The other problem is...there are more than a few teams looking for those contracts. The Knicks are the big fish there, and they're in a position where if they make no moves they'll have good cap room after 2010.