Official 2008-2009 NBA Thread

[Chisoxfn]

Love that idea Steve.

[DBAHO]

I honestly think, and this is all me, I’ve seen nothing to prove it, that the Bulls would be NUTS to not make an offer for Elton Brand. Gooden, Noah, Nocioni and a pick. The 76ers have proven they play better without him (8 game winning streak of recent until they lost the other night), and Brand has proven he’s not even close to 100%. However, you let Brand rest most of the rest of the season (limited minutes, keep him in game shape though) and put him on a workout regimen to improve the strength in his legs and shoulders. Next year, you have a very solid base where Deng can begin doing what he does best: slashing, and Rose can set them both up. Having Gordon around would be bonus, but he’s likely gone.

Here's what I'm thinking on that offer.

 

1 - Nocioni has no value to the 76ers whatsoever. They've already got Iggy and Thadeus Young to man the SF spot.

2 - Gooden's a FA after this season, and I don't know if the 76ers would re-sign him.

 

I think considering how much better the 76ers are in an uptempo system, Tyrus Thomas would have to be included in a deal to get Brand. Something like Thomas, Sefolosha, Noah and a 1st rounder for Brand I think is more around the mark.

 

Also, I don't see how Brand would fit in the offensive system currently under VDN, also considering that Gooden has complained about his lack of low post opportunities.

[ZoomSlowik]

I like the idea because it's a potential impact move that doesn't rely on us waiting until 2010 to go after a FA that we may/may not be able to make a max offer for anyways. That said, it's risky. Brand hasn't played well this year, he's not finishing at his usual rates inside and is shooting far more jumpers. He also has 4 more years left on his deal (not counting this year) at an average around 16 mil a year. If he doesn't get back to his old form (or worse, regresses as he creeps up over 30) that can be a hell of an albatross on the salary cap.

[ZoomSlowik]

I think the salary total for the Bulls actually has to be between Steve's number and DBaho's (unless the Bulls take someone back). Tyrus/Noah/Thabo comes out to about 10 mil (I'm not sure how the pick is factored in the salary totals), Noc/Gooden/Noah comes out to about 17.4 (again, not counting the pick). Brand makes around 13.8 this year, so I think one of Noc/Gooden needs to be included to even up the salaries (more likely Gooden since he's expiring anyways).

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Or they could not do that, shed salary, and make a serious run at 2010 FAs?

 

Someone has to want to come and play in Chicago alongside Rose...

[rangercal]

I'm tired of waiting , but I agree. We have to have some shot at one of those big time FA's. Has it really been 10 years since MJ retired (with the bulls)?

[ZoomSlowik]

The problem is that the Bulls may not even have enough space to go after one of the studs. Even if they let Gordon, Gooden and Hughes walk and out-right Cedric Simmons, they'll still need to find someone to give them a comparable expiring deal for Hinrich, Nocioni or Deng (even then they may be a few mil short depending on where the cap/max salaries end up), which likely won't be an easy sell since damn near everyone in the league is going to be trying to do the same thing. Or alternatively they can simply out-right Tyrus and/or Thabo to save a bunch of money, but I would think that's not terribly likely. Either way, it'll take a lot of maneuvering/cost-cutting just to be one of the 16 teams or so trying to convince a good free agent to sign with their team, and some of them may re-sign/not opt out/pick up their option by then. It will probably be a lot easier in this market to get someone to give you their talented-but-overpaid player for expiring contracts like Hughes and Gooden.

Edited January 21, 2009 by ZoomSlowik

[DBAHO]

The problem is that the Bulls may not even have enough space to go after one of the studs. Even if they let Gordon, Gooden and Hughes walk and out-right Cedric Simmons, they'll still need to find someone to give them a comparable expiring deal for Hinrich, Nocioni or Deng (even then they may be a few mil short depending on where the cap/max salaries end up), which likely won't be an easy sell since damn near everyone in the league is going to be trying to do the same thing. Or alternatively they can simply out-right Tyrus and/or Thabo to save a bunch of money, but I would think that's not terribly likely. Either way, it'll take a lot of maneuvering/cost-cutting just to be one of the 16 teams or so trying to convince a good free agent to sign with their team, and some of them may re-sign/not opt out/pick up their option by then. It will probably be a lot easier in this market to get someone to give you their talented-but-overpaid player for expiring contracts like Hughes and Gooden.

Hence why the Bulls are in a bad position right now.

 

I'd even say the Knicks are in a better position than Chicago is right now.

 

They have a better coach, players who will want to play for that team now, and they'll have the cap-space to sign 2 big-time FA's in 2010, depending on what they do with David Lee (who's playing at an all-star level right now).

 

Paxson got interviewed in the Sun-Times and basically absorbed all blame, saying VDN shouldn't get any.

 

Both should be fired though.

[Steve9347]

The Knicks don't have Derrick Rose. Thusly, they are not in a better position.

 

When your best young player is Wilson Chandler or David "No D" Lee, I just can't buy into what you're selling.

[rangercal]

Hence why the Bulls are in a bad position right now.

 

I'd even say the Knicks are in a better position than Chicago is right now.

 

They have a better coach, players who will want to play for that team now, and they'll have the cap-space to sign 2 big-time FA's in 2010, depending on what they do with David Lee (who's playing at an all-star level right now).

 

Paxson got interviewed in the Sun-Times and basically absorbed all blame, saying VDN shouldn't get any.

 

Both should be fired though.

 

The Knicks are not in a better position. They have cap space for 2010? So do the Bulls (+ Rose). Though, I won't go on record and say that the Bulls position is dramatically better than NY. It is pretty close to even.

[rangercal]

The Knicks don't have Derrick Rose. Thusly, they are not in a better position.

 

When your best young player is Wilson Chandler or David "No D" Lee, I just can't buy into what you're selling.

 

are we clones?

[Steve9347]

are we clones?

Handsome clones.

[Kyyle23]

Hence why the Bulls are in a bad position right now.

 

I'd even say the Knicks are in a better position than Chicago is right now.

 

They have a better coach, players who will want to play for that team now, and they'll have the cap-space to sign 2 big-time FA's in 2010, depending on what they do with David Lee (who's playing at an all-star level right now).

 

Paxson got interviewed in the Sun-Times and basically absorbed all blame, saying VDN shouldn't get any.

Both should be fired though.

 

 

Thats not how the radio guys are interpreting it. They asked him to evaluate his coaching staff and he declined, and while he did rate himself badly, people(read, M&H, B&B, Schuster, basically the entire score cast) are freaking out that he didnt give VDN a vote of confidence and think VDN may be gone soon.

[DBAHO]

The Knicks don't have Derrick Rose. Thusly, they are not in a better position.

 

When your best young player is Wilson Chandler or David "No D" Lee, I just can't buy into what you're selling.

Say the Knicks end up signing Amare Stoudemire and Steve Nash in 2010 though (and that's a worst case scenario with them missing out on LeBron).

 

PG - Nash

SG - Chandler

SF - Gallnari

PF - Lee

C - Stoudemire

 

Compare that to the Bulls;

 

PG - Rose

SG - Gordon?

SF - Deng

PF - Thomas?

C - Noah

 

But that's assuming the Bulls don't sign a major FA in 2010, which as Zoom pointed out, is going to be quite hard for them. I read a rumor today though that Portland is interested in Luol Deng to be that 2nd scorer guy next to Brandon Roy.

 

Would you do LaFrentz + something for Deng, if it got you enough cap-space to sign a major FA in 2010?

 

And it won't matter for the Bulls if they have Derrick Rose, if they're going to be horribly coached and have sub-par talent put around him.

[DBAHO]

The Knicks are not in a better position. They have cap space for 2010? So do the Bulls (+ Rose). Though, I won't go on record and say that the Bulls position is dramatically better than NY. It is pretty close to even.

ATM, how much space will the Bulls have in 2010, if they stand pat?

 

I assume the contracts of Rose, Noah, Deng, Hinrich and Nocioni will be on the books, and that's not to mention the possible re-signings of Ben Gordon and maybe Tyrus Thomas (not sure if he's a FA in 2010 or 2011).

[rangercal]

ATM, how much space will the Bulls have in 2010, if they stand pat?

 

I assume the contracts of Rose, Noah, Deng, Hinrich and Nocioni will be on the books, and that's not to mention the possible re-signings of Ben Gordon and maybe Tyrus Thomas (not sure if he's a FA in 2010 or 2011).

 

all the Bulls have to do is unload nocioni for a 2010 expiring and they could be Major players (that includes also re-signing Gordon). I really don't think that is all that far fetched. I don't understand how you could assume the Bulls won't sign a 2010 FA and the knicks will. That is very unfair and unrealistic analysis when comparing the 2 franchises. Anything can happen in the next 18 months.

 

The Bulls are in position where they don't have impossible contracts to trade. Everyone is young and have reasonable contracts to move. (Maybe outside of Deng, which I would not want to move at his lowest value anyway)

 

The problem lies in Pax. I suspect he does not want to pull the trigger unless he is getting above market value.

[rangercal]

Would you do LaFrentz + something for Deng, if it got you enough cap-space to sign a major FA in 2010?

 

And it won't matter for the Bulls if they have Derrick Rose, if they're going to be horribly coached and have sub-par talent put around him.

 

I would not do that. Deng is at his lowest value right now. His splits have improved every month so far this season.

[southsider2k5]

Thats not how the radio guys are interpreting it. They asked him to evaluate his coaching staff and he declined, and while he did rate himself badly, people(read, M&H, B&B, Schuster, basically the entire score cast) are freaking out that he didnt give VDN a vote of confidence and think VDN may be gone soon.

 

That is so counterintuative. How bad does the GM look if he fires his own hire, in the FIRST YEAR he is there? There isn't a chance VDN doesn't make it through at least until the off season.

[Kyyle23]

That is so counterintuative. How bad does the GM look if he fires his own hire, in the FIRST YEAR he is there? There isn't a chance VDN doesn't make it through at least until the off season.

 

The hire has been blasted since day 1, and it really isnt looking like a success. Honestly, they have a stable of former coaches right behind VDN, it isnt as if he would have to look very far.

 

Maybe Barry Melrose and the Lightning set a precedent

[SleepyWhiteSox]

So you're telling me noone is going to want to play with Rose at the level he's playing 2 years from now in Chicago??

[ZoomSlowik]

all the Bulls have to do is unload nocioni for a 2010 expiring and they could be Major players (that includes also re-signing Gordon). I really don't think that is all that far fetched. I don't understand how you could assume the Bulls won't sign a 2010 FA and the knicks will. That is very unfair and unrealistic analysis when comparing the 2 franchises. Anything can happen in the next 18 months.

 

They have zero chance at a 2010 FA if they re-sign Gordon. If the Bulls let everyone walk, pick up the obvious options on Rose and Noah and choose not to renouce Tyrus and Thabo, their total payroll/cap hold going into that off-season will be around $50 mil when you also factor in their next two 1st round picks, leaving them roughly 9-12 mil in space depending on where the cap ends up. That DOES NOT include Ben Gordon. Gordon would be at least another $10 mil on the payroll, so unless they cut about $20 mil in contracts as well (basically two of Deng, Hinrich and Nocioni, plus another small one if it's the last two) they'd have zero cap space.

 

The Bulls are in position where they don't have impossible contracts to trade. Everyone is young and have reasonable contracts to move. (Maybe outside of Deng, which I would not want to move at his lowest value anyway)

 

The problem lies in Pax. I suspect he does not want to pull the trigger unless he is getting above market value.

 

If these contracts were so easy to move for expiring deals, it'd probably be done by now, especially since neither one starts for the Bulls. Everyone has been talking about clearing up the logjam in the backcourt since the off-season and it still hasn't happened. Very few teams are looking to add contracts past 2010, and even fewer are willing to do it for marginal players. With the state of the economy an awful lot of owners are looking to cut long term costs, not add more. Hinrich and Nocioni both have 3 years and over $20 mil left on their contracts, that's a lot to swallow for guys that wouldn't start on a lot of teams. It's not impossible, but it'll also take some effort to get expiring deals back instead of some other team's trash with bad contracts (now if they'd simply renounce the rights to Tyrus and Thabo that year it'd be A LOT easier, that takes off about 10 mil in cap holds).

Edited January 22, 2009 by ZoomSlowik

[rangercal]

Where do you get your Numbers from Zoom? Gooden and Hughes come off the books the next 2 offseasons and I mentioned trading Noc. How would we be in salary cap trouble? Only 27 Mil is on the books for the summer of 2010.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

If these contracts were so easy to move for expiring deals, it'd probably be done by now, especially since neither one starts for the Bulls.

 

This is john paxson we're talking about, not your average gm.

[ZoomSlowik]

Where do you get your Numbers from Zoom? Gooden and Hughes come off the books the next 2 offseasons and I mentioned trading Noc. How would we be in salary cap trouble? Only 27 Mil is on the books for the summer of 2010.

 

I'm assuming you were looking at hoopshype just like me. You have to figure out what is actually counted in the yearly totals when you're doing the cap math, it doesn't automatically count the team options (though I think it does for player options). The $27 mil only counts the multi-year contracts of Deng, Hinrich and Nocioni, it doesn't count the $5.55 mil "option" for Rose, the $3.2 mil option for Noah, or the qualifying offers for Tyrus, Thabo and Simmons ($6.23 mil for Tyrus, $3.86 for Thabo and $3.74 for Simmons). I'd hope that they just out-right Simmons at that price, but I have a hard time seeing them do the first two given our history with core players.

Edited January 22, 2009 by ZoomSlowik

[WilliamTell]

Alonzo Mourning retired. I always feel really sad when players are retiring that I remember watching when I was younger. As a matter of fact, I still have a Hornets poster of him in my room, it hasn't left its spot in probably 12 years, haha.