All Things ProCain

[southsider2k5]

Bush and Kerry did 3, and those 3 debates were LEGENDARY in terms of how scripted they were. There were something like 32 pages of rules. The candidates weren't allowed to address or question each other directly. The cameras weren't supposed to stay locked on the candidate that was speaking and couldn't show the reactions of the other candidate. The candidates weren't allowed to be filmed from behind. And on and on.

 

During the primary season, how many times, especially towards the end, did we hear about how tedious the debate schedule was getting?

 

That and Barack needs to raise more money...

[NorthSideSox72]

I think ineffective and otherwise bad is about right. "Socialism" (read: redistribition of wealth) is just not something I'm too interested in, and that's pretty much all he's about.

Socialism? LOL

 

[kapkomet]

Socialism? LOL

That's why it's in quotes, sir.

 

But, the reality is, it's closer to socialism then capitalism on that spectrum and you can't deny that.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I keep seeing the GWB 3 comparision made too, and it makes just as much sense to me. Obama is out there proposing lots of the samethings that failed during Carters time, and since that is the tone here, I figured why not.

And you haven't seen me make that parallel, have you? McCain seems to have similar thinking to Bush on some things - where to go from this point with the Iraq War, how the tax code should be implemented (though its hard to tell where McCain really stand on that one)... but he is not the same as Bush. I just don't see it.

 

The closest parallel I've seen to Obama, looking back at previous Presidents and candidates, is RFK. That includes Personality, Policy and leadership qualities. for McCain, I would go with Gerald Ford, though I think that's a slightly weaker parallel.

 

And before anyone goes ballistic here, I am NOT talking about how successful they may turn out to be here. I am just pointing out how they profile, to me, going in.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

That's why it's in quotes, sir.

 

But, the reality is, it's closer to socialism then capitalism on that spectrum and you can't deny that.

Sure I can. The US is as capitalist as any country gets. Obama's policies would move it some miniscule percentage to the left, but would still undoubtedly leave it well to the capitalist side of just about everyone else. So, I definitely deny that its closer to socialism than capitalism.

 

[southsideirish71]

Sure I can. The US is as capitalist as any country gets. Obama's policies would move it some miniscule percentage to the left, but would still undoubtedly leave it well to the capitalist side of just about everyone else. So, I definitely deny that its closer to socialism than capitalism.

 

The redistribution of wealth sure sounds socialistic to me.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

The redistribution of wealth sure sounds socialistic to me.

 

Not to mention the class warfare rhetoric that has gone with it. The demonization of anyone who has been successful is embarassing to our system.

[NorthSideSox72]

The redistribution of wealth sure sounds socialistic to me.

 

Not to mention the class warfare rhetoric that has gone with it. The demonization of anyone who has been successful is embarassing to our system.

 

As I think i've made clear here before, I am not exactly 100% sold on Obama, and I certainly am not a fan of some of his tax policy ideas. But, to say that his desire to move towards more progressive taxation is socialistic, or that he has somehow declared class warfare, is really over the top. let's have some perspective here. Even if he could implement every tax/government spending change he has suggested (which is not possible anyway), the country would still be less "socialistic" than its been at other times in recent history.

 

[southsider2k5]

As I think i've made clear here before, I am not exactly 100% sold on Obama, and I certainly am not a fan of some of his tax policy ideas. But, to say that his desire to move towards more progressive taxation is socialistic, or that he has somehow declared class warfare, is really over the top. let's have some perspective here. Even if he could implement every tax/government spending change he has suggested (which is not possible anyway), the country would still be less "socialistic" than its been at other times in recent history.

 

I do not think it is ridiculous at all. We have the most progressive tax system in the world. The top 1% earners make 19% of the income of this country, and pay 37% of total taxes. The top 10% pays 68% of all taxes. The bottom 50% of tax payers earn 13% of all income and pay only 3% of all taxes. The bottom two quintiles actually have a NEGATIVE tax rate. Yet everytime I turn on the TV, I hear about the rich people raping America. There is so much misinformation out there on this, its astounding. Pushing so hard for more taxes and punishment for the rich is getting silly anymore. Our corporate tax rates are among the highest in the free world.

 

http://www.american.com/archive/2007/novem...-pays-the-taxes

[kapkomet]

I do not think it is ridiculous at all. We have the most progressive tax system in the world. The top 1% earners make 19% of the income of this country, and pay 37% of total taxes. The top 10% pays 68% of all taxes. The bottom 50% of tax payers earn 13% of all income and pay only 3% of all taxes. The bottom two quintiles actually have a NEGATIVE tax rate. Yet everytime I turn on the TV, I hear about the rich people raping America. There is so much misinformation out there on this, its astounding. Pushing so hard for more taxes and punishment for the rich is getting silly anymore. Our corporate tax rates are among the highest in the free world.

 

http://www.american.com/archive/2007/novem...-pays-the-taxes

But we need (insert government program here) to take care of everything for us!! And the rich, damn them, will PAY!

 

Yes, that's Kaperbole, but it's not far off from the way that a lot of Democrats think.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Let the swiftboating begin!

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/15/magazine...amp;oref=slogin

and this...

McCain's Secret, Questionable Record

Despite graduating in the bottom 1 percent of his Annapolis class, McCain was offered the most sought-after Navy assignment -- to become an aircraft carrier pilot. According to military historian John Karaagac, "'the Airdales,' the air wing of the Navy, acted and still do, as if unrivaled atop the naval pyramid. They acted as if they owned, not only the Navy, but the entire swath of blue water on the earth's surface." The most accomplished midshipmen compete furiously for the few carrier pilot openings. After four abysmal academic years at Annapolis distinguished only by his misdeeds and malfeasance, no one with a record resembling McCain's would have been offered such a prized career path. The justification for this and subsequent plum assignments should be documented in McCain's naval file.

 

I would be curious to see those records. Kerry did it.

[southsider2k5]

and this...

McCain's Secret, Questionable Record

 

 

I would be curious to see those records. Kerry did it.

 

Yup. I am still waiting for Barack Obama and John Kerry to step up and live up to the standards that they have been talking about on matters like this... I am waiting to see him tell his followers to back off, like he keeps telling everyone to do.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Yup. I am still waiting for Barack Obama and John Kerry to step up and live up to the standards that they have been talking about on matters like this... I am waiting to see him tell his followers to back off, like he keeps telling everyone to do.

it's not his supporters pushing this story though. It's a media organization. Should a candidate say "hey, dont find out if this guy is a lair"?

I dont want to seem like I am trying to make this an issue. Just pointing to another similar story to what was said earlier. (but I DO think he should release his record) Even I thought that article was a little harsh with little actual paper work to prove it.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Athomeboy_2000

[NorthSideSox72]

and this...

McCain's Secret, Questionable Record

 

 

I would be curious to see those records. Kerry did it.

I happen to be close friends with a USNA grad who went on to fly Hornets off carriers. Here is something that your article author fails to realize... the decision on who gets to go be a carrier-based fighter jockey is not about grades. Its about a combination of very specific skills and physical conditions, that are entirely seperate. So his grades are pretty irrelevant in any case.

 

That is, assuming that the Academy works then like it does now, which I can only guess is the case.

 

[lostfan]

I can't really say I care about something McCain did 40 years ago though. His service record at Annapolis is kind of irrelevant anymore. It would've been relevant if he'd just graduated this decade, maybe.

[southsider2k5]

it's not his supporters pushing this story though. It's a media organization. Should a candidate say "hey, dont find out if this guy is a lair"?

I dont want to seem like I am trying to make this an issue. Just pointing to another similar story to what was said earlier. (but I DO think he should release his record)

 

Anybody can defend their wife, it takes a real man to defend their opponent. For all of the talk about being better than McCain, he sure doesn't seem to want to lead when he gets the chance. All he has to say is to John McCain served his country honorably, and leave his service record alone, just like they should have done with John Kerry. Its over at that point. Samething with going after McCain's wife. One statement, and its over. If he tells everyone it is meaningless, no one cares anymore. But he won't because it benefits him. This is the same kind of proxy bulldog attacks that we have seen for years from the Clinton's and Bush's that supposedly wasn't going to happen under Obama, but guess what... it is, dispite the propaganda otherwise.

[HuskyCaucasian]

I can't really say I care about something McCain did 40 years ago though. His service record at Annapolis is kind of irrelevant anymore. It would've been relevant if he'd just graduated this decade, maybe.

please let me know if you think this is a stretch, but here is where I find it interesting. He finished 5th from the BOTTOM of his class (reportedly) due to behavioral issues 40 years ago and is well known for his anger issues. Combine those 2 together and it make an interesting profile of a potential future president. Maybe I am over analyzing. But those are something that raises my eyebrow. (This from a man who was willing to support McCain until he actually opened his mouth and talked about the issues)

[NorthSideSox72]

please let me know if you think this is a stretch, but here is where I find it interesting. He finished 5th from the BOTTOM of his class (reportedly) due to behavioral issues 40 years ago and is well known for his anger issues. Combine those 2 together and it make an interesting profile of a potential future president. Maybe I am over analyzing. But those are something that raises my eyebrow. (This from a man who was willing to support McCain until he actually opened his mouth and talked about the issues)

The guy served his country more than admirably. And I'm not just talking about his POW time here either. Have you ever seen the PBS special on the big fire on the Forrestal? I really don't think it much matters what grades someone got in college, and certainly not when they went on to be very successful at what they went to school for.

 

[lostfan]

please let me know if you think this is a stretch, but here is where I find it interesting. He finished 5th from the BOTTOM of his class (reportedly) due to behavioral issues 40 years ago and is well known for his anger issues. Combine those 2 together and it make an interesting profile of a potential future president. Maybe I am over analyzing. But those are something that raises my eyebrow. (This from a man who was willing to support McCain until he actually opened his mouth and talked about the issues)

McCain doesn't make much of any effort to hide from that either though. It's not a secret.

[NorthSideSox72]

Anybody can defend their wife, it takes a real man to defend their opponent. For all of the talk about being better than McCain, he sure doesn't seem to want to lead when he gets the chance. All he has to say is to John McCain served his country honorably, and leave his service record alone, just like they should have done with John Kerry. Its over at that point. Samething with going after McCain's wife. One statement, and its over. If he tells everyone it is meaningless, no one cares anymore. But he won't because it benefits him. This is the same kind of proxy bulldog attacks that we have seen for years from the Clinton's and Bush's that supposedly wasn't going to happen under Obama, but guess what... it is, dispite the propaganda otherwise.

While I agree about what it takes to defend people, I have to disagree about this whole idea that Obama or McCain need to go out and say something in these cases. Fact is, their supporters will go out and do/say all sorts of nasty things. They cannot be constantly apologizing and standing up for their opponent every time one of the loons from their own party makes some assinine statement. For practical purposes, they only can and only should to that when someone from their inner circle steps over the line.

 

I just cannot see attaching the fortunes of Obama or McCain to their supporters. If I did, I'd despise them both. I just think the reality is that they are NOT the same as their supporters, and they can't really control them anyway.

 

[HuskyCaucasian]

The guy served his country more than admirably. And I'm not just talking about his POW time here either. Have you ever seen the PBS special on the big fire on the Forrestal? I really don't think it much matters what grades someone got in college, and certainly not when they went on to be very successful at what they went to school for.

that's a fair point. Steve Jobs was a college drop-out.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Athomeboy_2000

[lostfan]

that's a fair point. Steve Jobs was a college drop-out.

You mean he recorded a critically-acclaimed, platinum rap album?

[southsider2k5]

While I agree about what it takes to defend people, I have to disagree about this whole idea that Obama or McCain need to go out and say something in these cases. Fact is, their supporters will go out and do/say all sorts of nasty things. They cannot be constantly apologizing and standing up for their opponent every time one of the loons from their own party makes some assinine statement. For practical purposes, they only can and only should to that when someone from their inner circle steps over the line.

 

I just cannot see attaching the fortunes of Obama or McCain to their supporters. If I did, I'd despise them both. I just think the reality is that they are NOT the same as their supporters, and they can't really control them anyway.

 

That hasn't worked both ways AT ALL this election. If that is the standard, that is one thing. If you are pushing for it to be the standard, you should live up to that standard.

[EvilMonkey]

With the near fanatical following Obama has, if he said to his people to stop it, they would. Bow to the Messiah!

[Cknolls]

and this...

McCain's Secret, Questionable Record

 

 

I would be curious to see those records. Kerry did it.

 

 

As a Navy Grad '00, let me tell you how it works. The academy produces roughly 800 new ensigns and 200 USMC 2nd LTs with each class (rough numbers). About 350 end up in flight training. The rest are submariner (the real cream of the crop) and surface warfare. There are a smattering of Special Warfare (SEALs), Medical, Supply, Crytpo and Intel billets, but those require exceptional strength, medical issues or outstanding grades. The Airdales — both pilots and Naval Flight Officers (NFO)s — Like Goose in Top Gun — are just people who want to train to be pilots/NFOs. They leave the Academy as flight student ensign. Thats it. Once at Pensacola — now known as McCain Field after John S. McCain Sr. (the candidate's grandfather), the students must compete for the good jobs. If McCain ended up as a Jet Pilot it was because he was good on the stick. I would have chosen to be a pilot if I didn't have bad eyes. Here's another fact, USNA produces more pilots than the Airforce Academy in Colorado Springs. Also, of the percentage of Marines that are commissioned, about one third will be either Pilots or NFOs too, just flying for the Mean Green instead of Blue and Gold.

 

First, my background: USNA 1989, currently an admissions outreach volunteer for USNA (known as Blue and Gold Officers, we counsel prospective candidates through the admissions process). I couldn't help but notice this gem in the Media Blog

 

...After four abysmal academic years at Annapolis distinguished only by his misdeeds and malfeasance, no one with a record resembling McCain's would have been offered such a prized career path. The justification for this and subsequent plum assignments should be documented in McCain's naval file.

 

Simply put, this is nonsense. Available pilot billets vary from year to year, but aviation billets are open on a competitive basis to all midshipmen that are physically qualified. In practical terms, it boils down to having 20/20 vision and excellent hearing at the time of graduation. It is entirely possible that there were unfilled billets during McCain's era because there were not enough graduates that met the vision standards. In my class, we had pilots that graduated near the bottom; they were focused on doing the minimal academic work needed to graduate, because they knew their were pilot billets available regardless of class standing. This was different from my own experience of the more competitive Naval Flight Officer program (navigators and weapons officers). NFOs only needed 20/20 vision with corrective lenses. Also, there were less billets available, so this program was much more competitive. I barely made the cut, graduating in the middle of my class.

 

Today, my outreach is complicated by the fact that USNA is mandated to have 2/3rds of the incoming class with 20/20 vision. That requirement is there to keep the fleet manned with pilots. Medical specialists can get more technical, but the typical 18-22 year old is going to go through some vision changes as they mature, and at graduation, there are even fewer aviation candidates. What this means in all practical terms is that if a typical midshipman, regardless of class standing, meets the physical standards required, than aviation is a likely career path.

 

It's all a moot point anyway. Whether or not McCain got a "plum assignment", he certainly paid for it in Hanoi.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if Jeff Klein served his country. Typical.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Cknolls