Canada does what US Dems won't

[jackie hayes]

I was referring to the 17 trade union leaders that were assassinated this year.

I see. So the question I've been asking is, how are assassinations differentiated from other types of murder? Also, what is the qualification for being a "leader"?

[GoSox05]

I see. So the question I've been asking is, how are assassinations differentiated from other types of murder? Also, what is the qualification for being a "leader"?

 

 

The distinction between assassination and other forms of killing is that the assassination usually has political motivation. As far as the leaders go, you could use Carlos Alberto Chicaiza Betancourt as an example. He was killed in 2004. He was a board member of a union that was trying to organize municipal workers. He was shot twice in the head.

[jackie hayes]

The distinction between assassination and other forms of killing is that the assassination usually has political motivation. As far as the leaders go, you could use Carlos Alberto Chicaiza Betancourt as an example. He was killed in 2004. He was a board member of a union that was trying to organize municipal workers. He was shot twice in the head.

No, you're not understanding me. I'm not asking about the meaning of the word. How are the two distinguished in the data? And, again, who qualifies as a union "leader" in these data you are citing?

Edited June 10, 2008 by jackie hayes

[GoSox05]

No, you're not understanding me. I'm not asking about the meaning of the word. How are the two distinguished in the data? And, again, who qualifies as a union "leader" in these data you are citing?

 

I'm not really sure what your looking for here.

[Rex Kickass]

So improvement doesn't matter to you? I guess your small, prefect world is pretty lonely. How do you feel about countries where the unions try to take away secret ballots, so they can intimidate those that vote against unions? How do you feel about countries where anti-union workers are routinely harassed and assaulted? How about countries where unions make back room deals with companies, and sometimes even governments, without the membership knowing? I would wager that on an evil scale, the SEIU has done worse to workers by sheer volume than any supposed attacks against union people in Columbia, which is still not proven to be by the government.

 

When you are killing fewer union members because there are fewer union members, that doesn't seem like the definition of improvement to me. Just eradication.

 

And please, tell me what evil the SEIU does. I'd really like to know that.

[Balta1701]

I'm not really sure what your looking for here.

I think the key question is...how do you know they were killed BECAUSE they were union leaders, and not just they were union leaders who happened to be killed for other reasons?

[GoSox05]

I think the key question is...how do you know they were killed BECAUSE they were union leaders, and not just they were union leaders who happened to be killed for other reasons?

 

 

I see. When someone receives over 200 death threats and then is bound, gagged and shot in the back of the head, you can assume it wasn't because they wanted his watch. Not that there aren't cases when someone is just killed for anonymous reasons, but I think the majority of them are pretty blunt. Also some of the murders will come after a rally or protest. Also murders tend to happen close to each other. Like a unionist will be shot and than less than 24 hours later another will be shot. To create that climate of fear.

 

As far as what a "leader" would be. I don't know. Someone who heads up a protest or organizes against a certain company I would assume.

 

[jackie hayes]

I see. When someone receives over 200 death threats and then is bound, gagged and shot in the back of the head, you can assume it wasn't because they wanted his watch. Not that there aren't cases when someone is just killed for anonymous reasons, but I think the majority of them are pretty blunt. Also some of the murders will come after a rally or protest. Also murders tend to happen close to each other. Like a unionist will be shot and than less than 24 hours later another will be shot. To create that climate of fear.

 

As far as what a "leader" would be. I don't know. Someone who heads up a protest or organizes against a certain company I would assume.

The reason I ask is because some people have claimed that the murder rate for union members is lower than the average murder rate in Colombia. In which case, it's difficult (though not impossible) to make the case that union members are being 'hunted down'. In any case, if that is true, it would be irresponsible to make the claim that union members are being systematically killed on the basis of sheer numbers.

 

Can you just show me where you are getting your data?

[EvilMonkey]

When you are killing fewer union members because there are fewer union members, that doesn't seem like the definition of improvement to me. Just eradication.

 

And please, tell me what evil the SEIU does. I'd really like to know that.

Assaults fellow union members because they dare to disagree:

http://www.labornotes.org/node/1604

 

They use forced contributions for political causes

http://www.blackvoicenews.com/content/view/41537/4/

 

And I can't find the video link anymore, but they are pushing a law to change the secret ballot voting for union membership in favor of card signing, so everyone knows what way you voted, leaving those who vote against open for intimidation. Very undemocratic. There used to be a cool video against it online featuring the guy who played Johnny Sack on the Sopranos, but for the moment, I can't find it.

 

I will, however, grant you that there have been no murders. That we know of.

[Rex Kickass]

Assaults fellow union members because they dare to disagree:

http://www.labornotes.org/node/1604

 

They use forced contributions for political causes

http://www.blackvoicenews.com/content/view/41537/4/

 

And I can't find the video link anymore, but they are pushing a law to change the secret ballot voting for union membership in favor of card signing, so everyone knows what way you voted, leaving those who vote against open for intimidation. Very undemocratic. There used to be a cool video against it online featuring the guy who played Johnny Sack on the Sopranos, but for the moment, I can't find it.

 

I will, however, grant you that there have been no murders. That we know of.

 

Card signing is to reduce workplace intimidation by employers. One out of four employers who find themselves being organized illegally fires employees for working to get their seat at the table. The current means to organize a union is extremely difficult and involves both the same card signing procedure in addition to a secret ballot election.

 

The SEIU organizers that I have worked with and almost worked for were most definitely not the intimidating types btw. SEIU is better than most unions actually in that it is one of the few unions that let their own employees organize.

[GoSox05]

The reason I ask is because some people have claimed that the murder rate for union members is lower than the average murder rate in Colombia. In which case, it's difficult (though not impossible) to make the case that union members are being 'hunted down'. In any case, if that is true, it would be irresponsible to make the claim that union members are being systematically killed on the basis of sheer numbers.

 

Can you just show me where you are getting your data?

 

 

The numbers i'm getting have come from different places. Mostly from different articles and things written on the subject. I know the AFL-CIO did a report on it and other such unions. I've also come across about 5 or so different articles on personal stories of people being attacked or killed.

 

I think it would be irresponsible to just blow these killings off a random acts of murder in a country that has had a history of labor right issues. These are not left wing FARC guerillas. These are just hard working people trying to make a living wage. I think if America went ahead with the Free Trade agreement it would say that these things just happen and oh well. American should demand that it's trading partners have the same labor rights as we do.

[jackie hayes]

The numbers i'm getting have come from different places. Mostly from different articles and things written on the subject. I know the AFL-CIO did a report on it and other such unions. I've also come across about 5 or so different articles on personal stories of people being attacked or killed.

 

I think it would be irresponsible to just blow these killings off a random acts of murder in a country that has had a history of labor right issues. These are not left wing FARC guerillas. These are just hard working people trying to make a living wage. I think if America went ahead with the Free Trade agreement it would say that these things just happen and oh well. American should demand that it's trading partners have the same labor rights as we do.

The problem is that, without consistent data, it's impossible to verify your claims. You cite anecdotal AFL-CIO accounts, others can cite Heritage Foundation reports. But without some base-level information, it's all just hot air. Which leaves me with what I know -- violence is down dramatically, violence against unionists is down dramatically, Uribe has significantly curtailed the activities of both FARC and the right-wing paramilitary groups, and whatever you say about what he's doing to his people, his approval ratings show that Colombians LOVE him. I see no reason to block a trade agreement over union protection issues if union members/leaders are as well protected as anyone else in the country.

[EvilMonkey]

Card signing is to reduce workplace intimidation by employers. One out of four employers who find themselves being organized illegally fires employees for working to get their seat at the table. The current means to organize a union is extremely difficult and involves both the same card signing procedure in addition to a secret ballot election.

 

The SEIU organizers that I have worked with and almost worked for were most definitely not the intimidating types btw. SEIU is better than most unions actually in that it is one of the few unions that let their own employees organize.

While I am sure there are lots of individual members who are upstanding citizens, and many locals that are good groups as well, the national leadership harkens back to the old days of unions with intimidation, backroom deals and just outright arrogance towards its members.

 

Here at their convention, the president was so sure that 'his' guys would be elected, he didn't even bother to print ballots. And when some of the locals stood up to them, they were caught unprepared.

http://seiuvoice.org/article.php?id=462

 

He managed to get passed a resolution to use strike funds to fund his Justice For All (Res 301), not for striking workers

http://seiuvoice.org/article.php?id=458

 

Here they attack an existing union so that they can increase thier membership. So much for letting the employees do their thing here. He even went to the governor and had secret meetings with him. Afterwards, the governor declared the strike 'illegal' and moved to decertify the union, so SEIU could take over.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/se...rs,409840.shtml

 

Stern makes suprise visits to influence member elections and won't meet with dissenters and is being sued by the local for doing so.

http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=616...mp;issue_num=31

 

he struck a deal with the very pro-union governor of Colorado who issued an executive order that creates a 'bargining partnership' with state workers, allowing them to be unionized with only a 30% yes vote, meaning that the other 70% would be forced to pay dues and join as well.

http://theunionlabelblog.com/2007/11/28/co...s-backdoor-win/