Open Question to White Sox fans

[boyinthedrain]

Hey White Sox fans...

My name is Sully. I'm a Red Sox fan who has appeared on HBO and ESPN2 and been a TV producer and filmmaker.

 

I keep a blog called Sully Baseball where I try to not always focus on the Red Sox and Yankees (but can't always help it.)

 

Last month I wrote a post about the White Sox and wondered why the franchise can't get any love.

 

It's here

Would love to get any White Sox fan's take on it

 

Thanks and I am rooting for the White Sox to win the Central

I'm a big Ozzie Guillen fan

[chw42]

Hey White Sox fans...

My name is Sully. I'm a Red Sox fan who has appeared on HBO and ESPN2 and been a TV producer and filmmaker.

 

I keep a blog called Sully Baseball where I try to not always focus on the Red Sox and Yankees (but can't always help it.)

 

Last month I wrote a post about the White Sox and wondered why the franchise can't get any love.

 

It's here

Would love to get any White Sox fan's take on it

 

Thanks and I am rooting for the White Sox to win the Central

I'm a big Ozzie Guillen fan

 

It's always been an uphill battle for the Sox since the whole idea of Cable TV. Eddie Einhorn made what the Sox are today popularity-wise. Had sportsvision never came along and had the Sox stuck to WGN, they would be a lot more popular, no doubt. It's more of a media battle for the Sox, the Cubs are owned by the country's largest media outlet, of course the Sox are going to be discriminated against. White Sox fans constantly bash the Tribune for their lack of Sox coverage and their incredible love for the Cubs. It's a chip-on-our-shoulders type of feeling. We're the underdog. Our fan base is somewhat smaller (to say the least), we don't get full houses every night, and even with a World Series, it still doesn't prove anything to the idiotic Cubs fans we get into arguments with. They say it's a thing of the past, we say their past goes back 100 years. Once Tribune sells the Cubs, it may turn for the better, but right now Chicago is a Cubs town. It might of been a Sox town in the 50s and 60s when the Cubs were nothing, but even with a little bit of hope back in '03 and what they've done in '08, you can see 2/3 of the city erupt in joy. The same joy the White Sox gave to Chicagoans 2 long years ago. The love is definitely spreading though, the WS Championship did its part. But in order to win the city back, the Sox must keep winning championships until the Cubs can match them no more.

Edited June 20, 2008 by chw42

[DrunkBomber]

Your line here sums up exactly how I feel.

 

“Who cares about love from outsiders? It’s trendy to like the Cubs… but it takes a real fan to love the White Sox!”

[RockRaines]

The ghetto that was wrigleyville became an adult playground with a bar every 5 feet and afordable post-college apartments became the norm for the area. Out of towners who want to move to a big city after they graduate gravitate towards the much nicer areas of Lincoln park, and Wrigleyville. Thus the cubs get alot of "fans" every year. I'd much rather be a fan of a team I grew up loving, than a team of a city I just moved to just to belong. But I guess thats just me.

[WilliamTell]

So you're the reason why the Sox lost the 8 game winning streak. You jinxed them. Haha just kidding, good article.

[That funky motion]

Very nice read.

[RockRaines]

Oh, and Sully, you should check out our stadium now as its much improved since it first opened. And yes, all those things you said about the emotions around 2005 are true. I get goosebumps opening a beer with my 05 championship beer opener, an xmas gift featuring the front page of the paper the next day teared me up months after it happened. The introduction before the game makes my hair stand on end. As far as fans go, its hard to be the second team in your city and I would say that adds to the passion and the dedication of Sox fans. Its not cool or popular to be a sox fan in this city, but if you are a fan, odds are you are a true fan, and thats the kind of people we are. We are all over the economic scale, no matter what the paper tells you, but we come from the working class background of this city, the cops, the firemen, the people who built buildings and bridges. We are a very diehard fanbase and will stay that way, even if our neighborhood doesnt turn into bar city, because we love this team.

Edited June 20, 2008 by RockRaines

[iamshack]

Oh, and Sully, you should check out our stadium now as its much improved since it first opened. And yes, all those things you said about the emotions around 2005 are true. I get goosebumps opening a beer with my 05 championship beer opener, an xmas gift featuring the front page of the paper the next day teared me up months after it happened. The introduction before the game makes my hair stand on end. As far as fans go, its hard to be the second team in your city and I would say that adds to the passion and the dedication of Sox fans. Its not cool or popular to be a sox fan in this city, but if you are a fan, odds are you are a true fan, and thats the kind of people we are. We are all over the economic scale, no matter what the paper tells you, but we come from the working class background of this city, the cops, the firemen, the people who built buildings and bridges. We are a very diehard fanbase and will stay that way, even if our neighborhood doesnt turn into bar city, because we love this team.

 

Great post, Rock.

[whitesoxbrian]

Like somebody said, it's tough especially when we're in the "not so great" part of town. Trust me, if we played in the Cubs part of town, we'd be the popular team.

[earthshiner]

here's the thing that always irks me. Where I live out in the burbs it is very pro-cubs. I don't care if someone is a cub fan. However, I get such s*** for wearing Sox gear. I have never seen any Sox fan do the same to a cubs fan. Even at the Cell. Both times I have been to Wrigley I have seen Sox fans pestered until security has to remove them. Not once have I seen that at the cell. Marty Benniman is exactly right, they are the most annoying fans in the game. A game I used to play in school was to ask cub fans to name 5 players on the Cubs. most struggled. At the same time, Sox fans could name about 15 cubs easily plus about 5 on every other team.

[Pants Rowland]

It's always been an uphill battle for the Sox since the whole idea of Cable TV. Eddie Einhorn made what the Sox are today popularity-wise. Had sportsvision never came along and had the Sox stuck to WGN, they would be a lot more popular, no doubt. It's more of a media battle for the Sox, the Cubs are owned by the country's largest media outlet, of course the Sox are going to be discriminated against. White Sox fans constantly bash the Tribune for their lack of Sox coverage and their incredible love for the Cubs. It's a chip-on-our-shoulders type of feeling. We're the underdog. Our fan base is somewhat smaller (to say the least), we don't get full houses every night, and even with a World Series, it still doesn't prove anything to the idiotic Cubs fans we get into arguments with. They say it's a thing of the past, we say their past goes back 100 years. Once Tribune sells the Cubs, it may turn for the better, but right now Chicago is a Cubs town. It might of been a Sox town in the 50s and 60s when the Cubs were nothing, but even with a little bit of hope back in '03 and what they've done in '08, you can see 2/3 of the city erupt in joy. The same joy the White Sox gave to Chicagoans 2 long years ago. The love is definitely spreading though, the WS Championship did its part. But in order to win the city back, the Sox must keep winning championships until the Cubs can match them no more.

 

What he said. Although, my understanding is the White Sox started messing around with their TV contract even before Einhorn. My father said it goes back to the ownership of the Allens. Prior to that the teams would both be broadcast on WGN for a daily day night double header. Einhorn's vision of "fans paying to watch quality players like Carlton Fisk" was the nail in the coffin that ended the good will built up with so many good Sox teams in the 50s and 60s.

 

It is around that time that the national Cubs following really started to take off. WGN became a national power station while the Sox were on UHF channels. In the mid-80s the Cubs neighborhood really started turning around and the gangs got displaced by yuppies. in 1988 the Cubs got lights and attendance levels started to skyrocket. Slowly, more and more bars popped up along the handful of north south commercial strips in the neighborhood, in particular Clark Street. The only thing that derailed this freight train a tad was the 1994 strike. All the while the Cubs were generally a bad team, but they stopped marketing baseball long before that and spent most of their time talking up the charm and experience of Wrigley Field, Harry Caray and the like. My understanding is they also really worked on ballpark upkeep so they were not forced to demolish like the Sox did with old Comiskey Park. Wrigleyville was not only a place for baseball fans at this point, but also drunks, professionals playing hookey, and tourists from Iowa and Nebraska who wanted to experience what they were seeing on WGN all those years.

 

During this same time, the Sox continued to be haunted by 20 or so local low income housing projects riddled with gangland violence and endless road construction on the Dan Ryan Expressway. If that wasn't enough to deter people, ownership continued to upset fans by threatening to move them to St. Petersburg unless they got a new stadium paid for by taxpayers. Once they got a new stadium, it was poorly designed and lacking in charm. Then the strike happened and everyone (or at least the local press, which is all that matters) blamed Reinsdorf for it. In 1997, the Sox were 3.5 games out of first (and sucked, BTW) and traded away a bunch of players to go young. People still talk about that stupid "White Flag" trade as if it were Black Thursday or something important. Reinsdorf was dismissive of criticism of the trade and earned even more scorn as a result.

 

All the while everything Cub seemingly became more charming and cuter. In 1998, Sammy Sosa proved to Frank Thomas what a true superstar was supposed to be. In 2003, they were robbed of their big chance by a fan (not their SS, who booted a grounder right to him). The endless stories of curses, tradition and destiny could not be avoided. 2004 was going to be the Cubs' year and the fans were beside themselves

 

With all that said, the Cubs failed to deliver in 2004. Then the Sox came out of nowhere and really stole some thunder with the 2005 championship. People love a winner and 2005 brought a lot of new faces to the area. Long gone were the housing projects and people realized there were alternative routes to get to the park. The myths of the neighborhood being a dangerous gangland have subsided dramatically since so many people have come out and realize that the area and the renovated ballpark really do not lack anything other than one tavern after another. They may not draw 3 million fans in a season, but they are definitely enjoying a renaissance.I see a lot more Sox hats and casual fans than I ever have before.

 

Being a Cubs fans typically has far more to do with things other than baseball. I like baseball and am glad to be a White Sox fan. Thanks for your writeup.

Edited June 20, 2008 by Pants Rowland

[Heads22]

I wish I could find the clip of Aaron Rowand and BA screaming like little girls over Pods HR. That moment is a pretty good description of the true elation some of us had in 05.

[sayitaintso]

This may seem like a cheesy comparison, but in my mind this is exactly how it is. In the movie Stand By Me, Denny is the beloved son who was popular and athletic and everyone knew him and paid attention to him. Everyone always wanted to talk about him. Gordie, the younger brother was almost non-existant around his parents and he was a misunderstood child. It plays in as being a cub fan, everyone know them and loves them, and everyone understands why because it is the cool thing to do. Being a fan of the "loveable losers" is encouraged just because of the rep. Half of the cub fans i know can't name half of their team or what happend to the Godsend that was Mark Prior. Being a Sox fan is different because you know the situation and understand why, but it still bothers you no matter how much you play it off. Sox fans know their team and the game. They don't pay $45 to sit on a metal bench and get hammerd and occasionally see baseball while you are up to get another old style. They go to see a game and their team. Sox fans are unifed because it was thrown upon us that were scum/trailer trash/hoodrats when just about all of us aren't. We won a championship and Peyton Manning and Tom Brady made the cover of SI, while we got about a snapple cap sized cirlce that said we won. We understand eachother and our situation that we and our team are in, but know that we/they can't do a damn thing about it, even winning doesn't help. We just gotta be Sox Fans and stick with our boys, through thick and thin. At least this is just my interpretation of how it is.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Like somebody said, it's tough especially when we're in the "not so great" part of town. Trust me, if we played in the Cubs part of town, we'd be the popular team.

Sully I think this statement says a lot without saying what a Chicagoland historian or sociologist could probably tell you about the breakup of southside neighborhoods in the 60's and 70's and I am not that person. Now Sox fans live farther and farther away from U.S. Cellular than they ever have before. The North suburbs are a lot closer to Wrigley Field than the south suburbs are to US Cellular.

 

It's a lot easier to be a Cubs fan because all you have to do is follow the rest of the sheep around you who won't question your fandom with inane questions about who was your favorite Cub growing up. Sox fans all seem to be knowledgable about the current team and teams of the past whereas all a Cub fan has to know is where the TV cameras are pointed so they can wave in the right direction.

 

Becoming a Sox fan is a tradition past down from fathers to sons whereas becoming a Cubs fan is more like "hey smoke this , it'll make you feel good."

Edited June 21, 2008 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[greg775]

They play in Wrigley; Wrigley is like Fenway to outsiders.

The thing you said about people moving to Chicago jumping on the bandwagon, so true.

That will be so funny if the Cubs play in the Cell a couple seasons.

The crowds will be just like White Sox crowds.

Tourists won't want to watch the Cubs at the Cell.

It's a ballpark thing.

We'll always be second banana.

[jackie hayes]

The ghetto that was wrigleyville became an adult playground with a bar every 5 feet and afordable post-college apartments became the norm for the area. Out of towners who want to move to a big city after they graduate gravitate towards the much nicer areas of Lincoln park, and Wrigleyville. Thus the cubs get alot of "fans" every year. I'd much rather be a fan of a team I grew up loving, than a team of a city I just moved to just to belong. But I guess thats just me.

I think that's the best summary. It's mostly a neighborhood thing, and pretty much always was. The northside has become very popular, particularly for transient Chicagoans, while the southside is still largely native. So you get the influx of Cubs "fans" who visit, drink, and leave. It wasn't always that way -- iirc, Mike Royko reminisced in at least one column about how empty Wrigley was when he young.

 

There certainly ARE true Cubs fans. Those are typically the ones that hate the Sox as much as I hate the Cubs (and dammit if I don't respect 'em more for that). But I think they are no more common than true Sox fans, and the stadium-fillers and t-shirt buyers are mostly the unconcerned souls who keep demanding some explanation about Why can't you be happy for both teams?

 

And, man, if there's one t-shirt I wish I had more than any other, it would be one of those Punch AJ shirts from a couple years ago. If you ever find one of those, you'd better let me know where you got it.

[Middle Buffalo]

The most amazing thing about Sox vs. Cubs argument that always gets missed nationally is the idea that Chicago has ALWAYS been a Cubs town. Here's the attendance figures from the 80's. http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/attendance.htm

 

CHI Wrigley Field

1980 1,206,776

1981 565,637

1982 1,249,278

1983 1,479,717

1984 2,107,655

1985 2,161,534

1986 1,859,102

1987 2,035,130

1988 2,089,034

1989 2,491,942

Total 17,245,805

 

Comiskey Park I

1980 1,200,365

1981 946,561

1982 1,567,787

1983 2,132,821

1984 2,136,988

1985 1,669,888

1986 1,424,313

1987 1,208,060

1988 1,115,749

1989 1,045,651

Total 14,448,183

 

There's really not a huge difference - especially considering that the Sox were not very good in the late 80s and the "perfect storm" had already begon for the Cubs. Cub's attendance in the 70's was 13,636,723 vs 11,053,371 for the Sox. In the 60's it was 8,796,707 for the Cubs vs 10,830,432 for the Sox. In the 50's it was 8,796,707 for the Cubs vs 11,296,258 for the Sox. I do recall (I believe) that the NL used to only count actual attendance, while the AL counted ticket sales (both leagues do it this way now), but I don't remember when the policies for reporting attendance changed.

 

Either way, the large disparity in attendance is a result of what I would call the perfect storm for the Cubs. Tribune ownership, neighborhood revitalization, WGN being the Cubs broadcast station when the Cubs won in 1984 (while the Sox were buried on UHF and pay services), the explosion of cable tv in the early-mid 80's making the Cubs a national team, and Harry Caray moving to the Cubs.

 

I get so tired of hearing how loyal Cub fans are. They have many good fans, but the reality is that their attendance gets a huge bump from the fact that people want to go to the stadium to see the stadium. Hell, even noted sox fan Gregory Pratt had "fun" at Wrigley. The neighborhood has changed so that it's a destination for young people whether there's a Cub game or not. The bars around the stadium a filled a year, not just when the Cubs play.

 

Cub fans will always make it a point to bring up attendance when arguing with Sox fans about their teams. Always. They will claim that the Sox are irrelevant to Cub fans, but all you have to do is watch the interleague games and see how hyped up the fans are for these series. Way bigger than Cubs vs Cardinals.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Middle Buffalo