Jim Thome's 2009 option.

[DBAHO]

As surprisingly effective as Swish has been in CF, the Sox need a natural CF for the long term. I wouldn't mind him platooning with another player there, but throwing him out there for 150+ games with BA at their disposal is pretty silly, IMO. Also, with Crede, Thome, Contreras, etc. coming off the books over the next 6-18 months, the Sox are going into rebuilding mode (or at least MAJOR retooling mode). They're better off addressing the CF situation sooner than later.

 

Perhaps more importantly, Dye needs to be moved out of RF next year for defensive purposes (and to limit the stress on his 35-year-old body). That would pretty much move Quentin to RF and Swisher to LF, opening up CF.

Swisher could still easily play CF though in that scenario, if you could find a OF to play a corner spot. Another Quentin type of trade by KW would be nice here. Who are the FA CF's out there in the off-season FWIW though?

 

By I agree on getting the core younger and younger. If they can do that by shipping out Thome and Konerko and not sacrificing on talent, by all means, that's the path they should go down.

[WCSox]

Swisher could still easily play CF though in that scenario, if you could find a OF to play a corner spot. Another Quentin type of trade by KW would be nice here. Who are the FA CF's out there in the off-season FWIW though?

 

If Kenny could find another Quentin then, hell yes, I'd be fine with Swisher in CF for another year.

 

I'd like to see Kenny go after a solid-but-not-great defensive CF this winter. Willy Taveras has been mentioned here. If Kenny could give up Owens and maybe another prospect for somebody like that, it'd be worth a shot, IMO. Somebody who can play good defensive CF and get on base enough to lead off would obviously be ideal, but that's most likely a pipe dream.

 

[DBAHO]

If Kenny could find another Quentin then, hell yes, I'd be fine with Swisher in CF for another year.

 

I'd like to see Kenny go after a solid-but-not-great defensive CF this winter. Willy Taveras has been mentioned here. If Kenny could give up Owens and maybe another prospect for somebody like that, it'd be worth a shot, IMO. Somebody who can play good defensive CF and get on base enough to lead off would obviously be ideal, but that's most likely a pipe dream.

A guy I actually had in mind was Reggie Willits (who I would love as a 4th OF if you could find a better alternative BTW).

 

But Taveras could be a possibility also. Although IIRC, he's not having the best season numbers wise in Colorado currently.

 

But if we could get a Furcal to replace OC in the off-season, we wouldn't need a leadoff hitter then. Just a balanced hitter with a bit of speed who has a good OBP.

[BearSox]

How about this for next year's lineup:

 

1. Willits, CF (trade?)

2. Pierzynski, C (not in love with AJ here)

3. Quentin, RF

4. Konerko, 1B

5. Dye, DH (you could swap Konerko and Dye)

6. Swisher, LF

7. Fields, 3B

8. Ramirez, SS

9. Richar/Getz/FA Signing, 2B (FA signing that could be ideal would be Loretta, Grudz, etc. that could platoon with either Getz or Richar)

Edited June 27, 2008 by BearSox

[southsidehawkeye]

How about this for next year's lineup:

 

1. Willits, CF (trade?)

2. Pierzynski, C (not in love with AJ here)

3. Quentin, RF

4. Konerko, 1B

5. Dye, DH (you could swap Konerko and Dye)

6. Swisher, LF

7. Fields, 3B

8. Ramirez, SS

9. Richar/Getz/FA Signing, 2B (FA signing that could be ideal would be Loretta, Grudz, etc. that could platoon with either Getz or Richar)

 

 

I really like Willits a lot and would love if we could grab him in a trade. That line up would get me really excited.

 

As for Thome, I am with most of you when I say that I think his time here should be done after this season. And if we do get rid of him I think that Ramirez gives us a lot of flexibility when trying to find that "last piece" (a true leadoff hitter). I'd be fine with Ramirez starting in any of 2B, SS, or CF in 2009 which would allow us to trade/sign a leadoff hitter in any of those positions as well.

 

With all that said, I think Thome will be back in 2009... unless he gets injured I can't see him not getting the ABs he needs to get that option.

[Metz]

Wont Jenks be looking for some locked up money?

 

I like Willits just cause i crave a speedy player, but who doesnt. I need to see a potential FA list before we start investing the money. But yeah its June 27th, it can wait.

[WCSox]

A guy I actually had in mind was Reggie Willits (who I would love as a 4th OF if you could find a better alternative BTW).

 

But Taveras could be a possibility also. Although IIRC, he's not having the best season numbers wise in Colorado currently.

 

But if we could get a Furcal to replace OC in the off-season, we wouldn't need a leadoff hitter then. Just a balanced hitter with a bit of speed who has a good OBP.

 

I would be fine with any of those guys.

 

Jenks is ARB eligible for the next 3 years. With a guy like Jenks, you take it on a year by year basis. His body, along with elbow is just such a toss up, not locking yourself up with guaranteed money is smart.

 

Good info here as well.

 

[witesoxfan]

I would have a problem with Willits as the leadoff hitter for the Sox. If he doesn't hit .300, he's not going to score many runs. I'd rather see Alexei leadoff than Willits next season.

 

It's weird how Soxtalk falls in love with certain players that are quite overrated. Luis Castillo is another. OBP is important and all, but it's not the end all be all for a leadoff hitter.

[BearSox]

I would have a problem with Willits as the leadoff hitter for the Sox. If he doesn't hit .300, he's not going to score many runs. I'd rather see Alexei leadoff than Willits next season.

 

It's weird how Soxtalk falls in love with certain players that are quite overrated. Luis Castillo is another. OBP is important and all, but it's not the end all be all for a leadoff hitter.

 

I disagree, as if he bats .275 with an OBP of .365, I think he'd still be plenty productive.

 

As someone else said earlier, I'd love Willits in a platoon type role.

[BearSox]

That's the best you could come up with for next year? As I mentioned earlier, there is almost 25 million coming off the books next year in this situation, and even more with Crede gone in this scenario. Aside from maybe looking up Danks long term, there is no way the payroll is dropping that much.

Have you seen next year's free agent class? Pretty weak. There will be some good pitchers on the market, but I don't see us going that route as we already 4 spots locked up with some guys coming up. There some good bullpen arms to, but I don't see us spending big money there after last off-season. Teixeria, not happening. Milton Bradley? Too much of a not job. The only big name player I see us possibly signing is Furcal, but I think the org. has Ramirez set to be the SS of the future.

[witesoxfan]

I disagree, as if he bats .275 with an OBP of .365, I think he'd still be plenty productive.

 

As someone else said earlier, I'd love Willits in a platoon type role.

 

 

OBP is important and all, but it's not the end all be all for a leadoff hitter.

 

 

a .275 average would be a .320 slugging, which would be a .685 OPS. OPS is more important for leadoff hitters than a lot of people realize, and .685 is absolutely god awful. Even considering that, he hasn't hit this year - probably because the Angels outfield is absolutely loaded and he hasn't had many opportunities - but I just don't think he's a good bet going forward and I don't think he's the right guy to leadoff for the Sox next year. Not only that, but you'd be stepping down from a .900+ OPS in Thome to a .725 or lower OPS in Willits.

 

I'd rather give David Cook a shot in CF rather than acquire Willits and depend upon him to leadoff for the Sox next season, and that's not even considering the possibility that Anderson is still on the team. Willits is overrated as hell because he can draw a walk. A glorified 4th outfielder.

[BearSox]

a .275 average would be a .320 slugging, which would be a .685 OPS. OPS is more important for leadoff hitters than a lot of people realize, and .685 is absolutely god awful. Even considering that, he hasn't hit this year - probably because the Angels outfield is absolutely loaded and he hasn't had many opportunities - but I just don't think he's a good bet going forward and I don't think he's the right guy to leadoff for the Sox next year. Not only that, but you'd be stepping down from a .900+ OPS in Thome to a .725 or lower OPS in Willits.

 

I'd rather give David Cook a shot in CF rather than acquire Willits and depend upon him to leadoff for the Sox next season, and that's not even considering the possibility that Anderson is still on the team. Willits is overrated as hell because he can draw a walk. A glorified 4th outfielder.

OPS my ass. When you have a leadoff hitter, you want someone who can get on base, and has some speed to steal a few bags and advance from 1st to 3rd on certain hits.

[WCSox]

At worst, this team is going to find itself in the playoff hunt for the rest of the year. Because of that, attendance will stay solid. Do you really expect the Sox to cut payroll by 15-20 million next season?

 

Losing Uribe, Crede, and O-Cab will cut it by over $19 million alone. I suspect that Kenny will do SOME spending in the off-season, but he's not going to spend just to spend, especially when they're not drawing like they were a couple of years ago. The Sox are currently 19th in the league in attendance, averaging just over 28,000. That's not bad but, if it doesn't improve, I don't see why they wouldn't let the payroll slip down to $90 million. Especially with a good-but-not-great team whose high-paid veterans aren't producing.

 

OPS my ass. When you have a leadoff hitter, you want someone who can get on base, and has some speed to steal a few bags and advance from 1st to 3rd on certain hits.

 

Steals are a nice bonus, but agreed that OBP is absolutely the most important thing. If a contact hitter like O-Cab could theoretically sustain a .370 OBP, there wouldn't be threads about finding a legitimate leadoff hitter here.

 

[witesoxfan]

OPS my ass. When you have a leadoff hitter, you want someone who can get on base, and has some speed to steal a few bags and advance from 1st to 3rd on certain hits.

 

You tell me why Jimmy Rollins is a better leadoff hitter than Luis Castillo then.

 

And, if you look up and down this thraed, you'll never see where I said OBP isn't important or that it's not the most important stat. It is by and far THE most important stat in the entire game. But to completely ignore slugging percentage is like looking at a guy who can hit 40 homers and inserting him into cleanup spot despite the fact that he'll hit .220 and never walk. All you're looking for is power, right?

 

So "OPS your ass" is complete s***

Edited June 28, 2008 by witesoxfan

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'd hate it if the Sox signed Furcal. He's going to ask for a ton of money and his improvement over Alexei isn't going to be much. Moving Alexei to CF would be an option, but I just think Furcal is going to get 4 years and then disappear for about 2 of them.

 

Just for fun, this is the type of offseason I'd like to see:

 

1. Deal for one of Figgins/Roberts without giving up a piece of the MLB team or Fields (this makes Roberts the much more realistic of the two)

2. Deal Paulie and Contreras for prospects (if PK agrees)

3. Let Thome walk

4. Deal for Johnny Damon who shouldn't cost much given his age and contract situation

5. Deal for Randy Winn who shouldn't cost much at all either in terms of talent

 

The lineup:

 

2B Figgins/Roberts S

SS Ramirez R

LF/DH Damon L

RF Quentin R

LF/DH Dye R

C Pierzynski L

1B Swisher S

3B Fields R

CF Winn S

 

We change the entire dynamic of the team without making more than one big deal that affects the farm and without signing a big FA to a new longterm contract. Adding Figgins/Roberts, Damon, and Winn adds a lot more contact to the lineup and seriously improves the team speed. We wouldn't have any basecloggers in this lineup aside from AJ, yet there's still power 2-9 in the order.

 

There are other ways to play with the roster to balance it out a lot better and get away from what is going on now, but I like the temporary veteran approach for the moment until the farm gets back on its feet enough either to produce something special or give us enough ammo to acquire something special.

[BearSox]

You tell me why Jimmy Rollins is a better leadoff hitter than Luis Castillo then.

And, if you look up and down this thraed, you'll never see where I said OBP isn't important or that it's not the most important stat. It is by and far THE most important stat in the entire game. But to completely ignore slugging percentage is like looking at a guy who can hit 40 homers and inserting him into cleanup spot despite the fact that he'll hit .220 and never walk. All you're looking for is power, right?

 

So "OPS your ass" is complete s***

Are you for real? Jimmy Rollins is a better leadoff hitter because he is about 100x the hitter!

 

And OBP is far from the most important stat in baseball. The most important stat is W.

 

When you look for a leadoff hitter, you don't necessarily look for someone like Granderson who can hit for a ton of power. If you can get a guy with speed to get single after single and draw walk after walk, he can turn those singles and walks into doubles or triples.

 

As for cleanup hitter, I look for someone with good power, can knock in runs, and provide a good average and ops. Why the f*** would I ignore OBP in a cleanup hitter? A leadoff hitter doesn't need great power, they need the ability to get on base.

Edited June 28, 2008 by BearSox

[beautox]

a .275 average would be a .320 slugging, which would be a .685 OPS. OPS is more important for leadoff hitters than a lot of people realize, and .685 is absolutely god awful. Even considering that, he hasn't hit this year - probably because the Angels outfield is absolutely loaded and he hasn't had many opportunities - but I just don't think he's a good bet going forward and I don't think he's the right guy to leadoff for the Sox next year. Not only that, but you'd be stepping down from a .900+ OPS in Thome to a .725 or lower OPS in Willits.

 

I'd rather give David Cook a shot in CF rather than acquire Willits and depend upon him to leadoff for the Sox next season, and that's not even considering the possibility that Anderson is still on the team. Willits is overrated as hell because he can draw a walk. A glorified 4th outfielder.

 

OPS isn't how you should go about judging willits, his job as a leadoff hitter is to set the table and extend the inning, he has that speed that we sorely lack and he isn't one dimensional hes a great contact hitter that can actually draw a walk. OPS doesn't work for every hitter.

 

how is a double = to a walk?? its weighted evenly and thats just not right. OPS is good measuring stick for productivity to an extent but not role definition. The sox could use someone that can get on base and lay down a bunt all the while not being a liability in the outfield with their arm.

 

Ideally this would be the starting '09 line up

 

SS S Furcal

CF S Willits

RF R Quentin

DH R Dye

LF S Swisher

1B R Konerko

3B R Fields

C L AJP

2B R Ramirez

 

Give Furcal a 3yr deal with an opition for the 4th by year 3/4 Gbeck should be ready if not sooner and that'll make Furcal 33-34 when its all said and done.

 

Or with all the money coming off the books, move ramirez to CF and Sign both Furcal and trade for Roberts esp if the sox miss the postseason to make a splash or sign O-Dog(i think he'll be a fa?)

 

SS S Furcal

2B S Roberts/Hudson

RF R Quentin

DH R Dye

LF S Swisher

1B R Konerko

3B R Fields

C L AJP

CF R Ramirez

 

that lineup has it all, Id give Hudson a very similar deal to Furcal,

Edited June 29, 2008 by beautox

[witesoxfan]

Are you for real? Jimmy Rollins is a better leadoff hitter because he is about 100x the hitter!

 

Uh, how are you going about determining who the better hitter is?

 

Rollins career average is .277 and his career OBP is .331; Castillo is at .292 and .368. You wouldn't happen to be, you know, using SLUGGING PERCENTAGE, would you?

 

And OBP is far from the most important stat in baseball. The most important stat is W.

 

Thanks for the cliche, I've heard that before. Let's talk about individual performances here first, because other than win shares, there is no form of keeping track of "wins" among individual position players.

 

If you want me to clarify, AMONG INDIVIDUAL HITTERS, on base percentage is far and away the most important stat, but it's not the end all be all. That better?

 

As for cleanup hitter, I look for someone with good power, can knock in runs, and provide a good average and ops. Why the f*** would I ignore OBP in a cleanup hitter? A leadoff hitter doesn't need great power, they need the ability to get on base.

 

Then WHY ON EARTH would you not look for a leadoff hitter that can get to second base without the aid of a stolen base or a another hitter moving him over?

 

 

 

 

OPS isn't how you should go about judging willits, his job as a leadoff hitter is to set the table and extend the inning, he has that speed that we sorely lack and he isn't one dimensional hes a great contact hitter that can actually draw a walk. OPS doesn't work for every hitter.

 

It's hard to score from 1B on a single, even if we're talking about the fastest man in the world running from first. OPS is relevant. I'm not looking or expecting a .900 OPS from the leadoff man, but something respectable in the area of .750-.800 is what I'm looking for. If Willits could do that, then by all means, sign him up, but he shouldn't be acquired with the thought of having him leadoff in mind. I'd much rather acquire him to be a 4th OFer that gets perhaps even 300 PAs next season, and if he takes the job during the season putting up incredible splits, than good for him and good for us.

 

how is a double = to a walk?? its weighted evenly and thats just not right. OPS is good measuring stick for productivity to an extent but not role definition. The sox could use someone that can get on base and lay down a bunt all the while not being a liability in the outfield with their arm.

 

If I ever said that a double is equal to a walk, I apologize, because a double is far superior than a walk. A single is superior to a walk. The only thing a walk does is get you on base...it only advances runners one base at a time and is very inefficient. It does get a baserunner, and that's crucial to the game of baseball. A single can advance runners 2 or 3 bases, and a double almost always advances runners atleast 2 bases.

 

[knightni]

The lineup:

 

2B Figgins/Roberts S

SS Ramirez R

LF/DH Damon L

RF Quentin R

LF/DH Dye R

C Pierzynski L

1B Swisher S

3B Fields R

CF Winn S

HELL no!

 

Damon is overpriced and past his prime.

[FranktheTank35]

GPA is a much better statistic to gauge a player by then OPS.

 

And BearSox, what stats do you rank above OBP, since it's far from the top? I'm just curious, because I rate OBP at the top.

Edited June 30, 2008 by FranktheTank35

[elrockinMT]

I am thinking Jim Thome can still hit the fastball after that homer on Sunday night versus the Cubbies

[WCSox]

I am thinking Jim Thome can still hit the fastball after that homer on Sunday night versus the Cubbies

 

Where was that earlier this year?

 

JT

 

[beautox]

I like it alot beautox. Semi-realistic, and would be a really solid offense.

 

Thanks i dont see a batting champ or home run leader(well maybe Q :-D) in that line up; but the way its built its multi faceted and can provide a power speed and good on base skills with stellar defense, Furcal ranging to his right could help fields alot.

 

I really like the way this bullpen is set up going forward to i wanna see what Masset, Russell and even wasserman are capable of; im just glad to see Thornton and Logan gain a rhythm again.