TCSN: Orioles Interested in Uribe; News on Danks

[lostfan]

Range factor, zone rating, RZR, etc. don't tell me about FPCT and # of errors. And Gold Gloves are a completely useless metric to judge somebody by.

[iamshack]

I agree, there is absolutely no way that the Sox are going to cut a deal with a team contending for the World Series with them unless they felt they were completely robbing the Red Sox (and Epstein isn't some idiot). Which is why I found the entire report regarding the Sox as being pure fluff coming from ESPN.

 

I sort of disagree with you (although I see your point). I think it's fairly clear this team is a better all-around team without both Thome AND Konerko in there. Should Kenny be able to get a piece for the major league team AND some minor league pitching, I think he would be willing to consider it. Maybe something like Crisp and Justin Masterson? Obviously this is blind speculation, and I am just having fun with this, but if it were me, I would consider it.

 

Any way you can get a decent piece for Konerko or Thome, considering Paul's 10 and 5 rights, and Thome's DH status, I think you consider it.

[Chisoxfn]

I sort of disagree with you (although I see your point). I think it's fairly clear this team is a better all-around team without both Thome AND Konerko in there. Should Kenny be able to get a piece for the major league team AND some minor league pitching, I think he would be willing to consider it. Maybe something like Crisp and Justin Masterson? Obviously this is blind speculation, and I am just having fun with this, but if it were me, I would consider it.

 

Any way you can get a decent piece for Konerko or Thome, considering Paul's 10 and 5 rights, and Thome's DH status, I think you consider it.

Do you really think the Red Sox would give that up for Konerko, given his current production. If Masterson is involved in a deal you'd have to listen because he's got a hell of an arm (and IIRC is a guy Kenny targeted last year in the rumored Buehrle/Dye trades). However, it is very rare that two contending teams make a trade with each other in July (one of the last ones I can think of was when the Mets & Twins made a deadline deal involving Matt Lawton).

[TCQ]

Range factor, zone rating, RZR, etc. don't tell me about FPCT and # of errors. And Gold Gloves are a completely useless metric to judge somebody by.

 

Fld Pct and errors is the most straight foward accepted way of judging the defensive skill of a player, more importantly a middle infielder. The fact is that of all the balls hit to short OC makes more of them become outs. And while gold gloves arent necessarily the highest factor to judge someone by it proves that a large group of people acknowledge that there is no one clearly better than that player. I dont know how there are so many uribe supporters, Uribe does have a better arm ill admit that but i cant remember a time when cabreras arm has severely hindered him, and david eckstein has made a career with a very weak arm.

[Chisoxfn]

Fld Pct and errors is the most straight foward accepted way of judging the defensive skill of a player, more importantly a middle infielder. The fact is that of all the balls hit to short OC makes more of them become outs. And while gold gloves arent necessarily the highest factor to judge someone by it proves that a large group of people acknowledge that there is no one clearly better than that player. I dont know how there are so many uribe supporters, Uribe does have a better arm ill admit that but i cant remember a time when cabreras arm has severely hindered him, and david eckstein has made a career with a very weak arm.

Derek Jeter winning all the gold gloves he has shows just what an absolute joke that award has become. I'll still be excited if a guy from my team gets it and there are many many players who got the award and completely deserved it (including OC last year) but I do think in this instance the newer school defensive statistics are far better methods of judging defense than fielding percentage and errors. I also think nothing beats the good old "eye" when it comes to defense.

 

All it took for me was watching Wise one day in the field to see that he isn't even close to being a solid defensive centerfielder (he gets poor jumps and even worse reads). I don't even consider Quentin much more than an average defensive leftfielder. I'd rate him as worse but he plays left field and is at least average as left fielders go. Yes he has a strong arm, but he gets very poor reads and often times takes ridiculously questionable routes to the ball. However, the athletism is there and he doesn't have a ton of experience in left field so I do hope that with time he can turn into an above average defensive player who is capable of playing RF (where he'll likely play next year).

[lostfan]

Fld Pct and errors is the most straight foward accepted way of judging the defensive skill of a player, more importantly a middle infielder. The fact is that of all the balls hit to short OC makes more of them become outs. And while gold gloves arent necessarily the highest factor to judge someone by it proves that a large group of people acknowledge that there is no one clearly better than that player. I dont know how there are so many uribe supporters, Uribe does have a better arm ill admit that but i cant remember a time when cabreras arm has severely hindered him, and david eckstein has made a career with a very weak arm.

Are you kidding? I hate Uribe, he sucks. But if you can't see how good of a SS is you're just blind.

 

FPCT is an incomplete and outdated stat, used by itself it tells you almost nothing. The new sabermetric stats may sound geeky but they take all defensive skill into account - FPCT does not.

Edited July 1, 2008 by lostfan

[NorthSideSox72]

Not including this year where uribe has played almost half as many games as OC at a less challenging position of 2b (Not by much but it is), two out of the last three years OC had a better fielding percentage, fewer errors, and turned more DP's. Some other people have to agree with me because last year Uribe was the starting ss for the sox and cabrera was for the Angels, and Orlando Cabrera won the gold glove at short for the AL last year..not Uribe.

Gross numbers like total errors are useless in measuring defense. And double plays are highly dependant on outside factors, so, also useless.

 

FPct is the only stat you mention that should even be considered, and that should be taken with a grain of salt. Uribe has better range all over, and a much better arm. Overall, Uribe is better, though certainly not by a ton.

 

[iamshack]

Do you really think the Red Sox would give that up for Konerko, given his current production. If Masterson is involved in a deal you'd have to listen because he's got a hell of an arm (and IIRC is a guy Kenny targeted last year in the rumored Buehrle/Dye trades). However, it is very rare that two contending teams make a trade with each other in July (one of the last ones I can think of was when the Mets & Twins made a deadline deal involving Matt Lawton).

 

Yeah, now that I think about it, they'd have a major problem next year when Papi did come back.

 

 

[TCQ]

Fine im done arguing its not a big deal. One thing for me is that im all down with sabermetrics but how can u trust range factor that routinely has a 1st basemen with almost double range factors then those of shortstops, and more so for other positions?

[NorthSideSox72]

Fine im done arguing its not a big deal. One thing for me is that im all down with sabermetrics but how can u trust range factor that routinely has a 1st basemen with almost double range factors then those of shortstops, and more so for other positions?

RF is not meant to be position-fungible.

 

[lostfan]

Range factor is relative only to that one position, you're never, ever going to find a CF with a range factor in the double digits. That would mean the ball was hit to him almost every time there was a chance to make an out. But range factor only tells you one thing (# of outs they are responsible for) and you have to look at the other sabermetrics with it.

[lostfan]

RF is not meant to be position-fungible.

This.

 

You compare a SS's range factor to other SS's, not to another position because some players have more total chances than others, naturally.

[klaus kinski]

Actually, I'd be dangling Mac & Uribe at a team like Tampa-who may be deadline buyers for the first time

[whitesoxbrian]

Actually, I'd be dangling Mac & Uribe at a team like Tampa-who may be deadline buyers for the first time

Why would a team like TB who has a lights out bullpen go after a bum like MacDougal? I can see them going after Brian Fuentes...

[beautox]

Why would a team like TB who has a lights out bullpen go after a bum like MacDougal? I can see them going after Brian Fuentes...

Insurance

 

Troy Percival and Al Reyes are huge injury risks not to mention Reyes fell apart after the ASB last year; add into the equation Wheeler is just one year removed from this line 1.34WHIP & 5.30 ERA, Niemann will be thrown into a bullpen on a first place team with very little experience and Salas is off the PEDs, and you have a recipe for a front office looking for cheap insurance that might catch lightning in the bottle going forward. MacDougal hadn't been horrible down at AAA in June not great by any stretch but not bad either, the rays dont want to deal a top prospect for fuentes. Maybe we could get a Tweener like Fernando Perez for Mac and Uribe and a bit of cash.

[whitesoxbrian]

Insurance

 

Troy Percival and Al Reyes are huge injury risks not to mention Reyes fell apart after the ASB last year; add into the equation Wheeler is just one year removed from this line 1.34WHIP & 5.30 ERA, Niemann will be thrown into a bullpen on a first place team with very little experience and Salas is off the PEDs, and you have a recipe for a front office looking for cheap insurance that might catch lightning in the bottle going forward. MacDougal hadn't been horrible down at AAA in June not great by any stretch but not bad either, the rays dont want to deal a top prospect for fuentes. Maybe we could get a Tweener like Fernando Perez for Mac and Uribe and a bit of cash.

Insurance? If they want that, they'll get a solid RP, not a POS.

[Dick Allen]

Insurance

 

Troy Percival and Al Reyes are huge injury risks not to mention Reyes fell apart after the ASB last year; add into the equation Wheeler is just one year removed from this line 1.34WHIP & 5.30 ERA, Niemann will be thrown into a bullpen on a first place team with very little experience and Salas is off the PEDs, and you have a recipe for a front office looking for cheap insurance that might catch lightning in the bottle going forward. MacDougal hadn't been horrible down at AAA in June not great by any stretch but not bad either, the rays dont want to deal a top prospect for fuentes. Maybe we could get a Tweener like Fernando Perez for Mac and Uribe and a bit of cash.

What kind of insurance is a guy who has shown the last 2 seasons he can't handle the major leagues. Its funny on this board how guys get trashed and most rightfully so, then when it comes time for a trade, the same people trashing these players think they have value. MacDougal has none. If he did, he would be at USCF right now.

[iamshack]

What kind of insurance is a guy who has shown the last 2 seasons he can't handle the major leagues. Its funny on this board how guys get trashed and most rightfully so, then when it comes time for a trade, the same people trashing these players think they have value. MacDougal has none. If he did, he would be at USCF right now.

 

He doesn't have a ton of value, but he absolutely has value. A guy at his age, with his stuff, signed to his contract, who has done it before in the big leagues will always have value. Believe me, there are takers for him should Kenny choose to move him. My guess is Kenny believes they can right his mind and get him back to being productive again. And it certainly isn't hurting the team too bad to hold onto him for the time being.

[whitesoxbrian]

What kind of insurance is a guy who has shown the last 2 seasons he can't handle the major leagues. Its funny on this board how guys get trashed and most rightfully so, then when it comes time for a trade, the same people trashing these players think they have value. MacDougal has none. If he did, he would be at USCF right now.

Thank you.

[NorthSideSox72]

He doesn't have a ton of value, but he absolutely has value. A guy at his age, with his stuff, signed to his contract, who has done it before in the big leagues will always have value. Believe me, there are takers for him should Kenny choose to move him. My guess is Kenny believes they can right his mind and get him back to being productive again. And it certainly isn't hurting the team too bad to hold onto him for the time being.

FYI, his numbers at Charlotte in 20 games:

 

0-3

5.48 ERA

1.87 WHIP

.290 AvgA

6.3 BB/9

 

Not exactly tearing it up down there.

 

[beautox]

What kind of insurance is a guy who has shown the last 2 seasons he can't handle the major leagues. Its funny on this board how guys get trashed and most rightfully so, then when it comes time for a trade, the same people trashing these players think they have value. MacDougal has none. If he did, he would be at USCF right now.

two seasons? we acquired him in '06 and he was above average for us, last year the wheels came off for him and Matt Thornton; Matt has been able to put it back together. MacDougal has more ML experience and success than him, like shack said: someone with his arm, past success and contract has some value.

 

Lastly i said June; and i didnt even say tearing it up hes been ok.

[NorthSideSox72]

two seasons? we acquired him in '06 and he was above average for us, last year the wheels came off for him and Matt Thornton; Matt has been able to put it back together. MacDougal has more ML experience and success than him, like shack said: someone with his arm, past success and contract has some value.

 

Lastly i said June; and i didnt even say tearing it up hes been ok.

MacDougal had one very good season (2006), but even that year, signs of his head problems were there (every year, including that one, he's worse in situations like close-and-late, RISP, Runners On, etc.). He was bad in 2007, pretty bad in ST this year, and bad to start 2008. And now he's bad in AAA.

 

MacDougal probably has a little value still, because of his skills. But he's a head case, and he's really only had one good year. He won't fetch much by himself.

 

[Dick Allen]

two seasons? we acquired him in '06 and he was above average for us, last year the wheels came off for him and Matt Thornton; Matt has been able to put it back together. MacDougal has more ML experience and success than him, like shack said: someone with his arm, past success and contract has some value.

 

Lastly i said June; and i didnt even say tearing it up hes been ok.

Yes 2 seasons. 2007 and 2008. He has no value or the White Sox wouldn't be paying him millions to pitch in Charlotte. MacDougal couldn't repeat a delivery to save his life, so he can't throw strikes. He has nice "stuff", but it doesn't matter because of his total lack of control. If he's so good, maybe the White Sox should call him up and start throwing him in the 7th and 8th innings. I doubt you would think that is a good idea. Why would it be for any other team looking to win?

[almagest]

MacDougal had one very good season (2006), but even that year, signs of his head problems were there (every year, including that one, he's worse in situations like close-and-late, RISP, Runners On, etc.). He was bad in 2007, pretty bad in ST this year, and bad to start 2008. And now he's bad in AAA.

 

MacDougal probably has a little value still, because of his skills. But he's a head case, and he's really only had one good year. He won't fetch much by himself.

He's had 2 partial seasons at league-average (ERA+ 99 and 103 in '01 and '02), two full seasons that were very good (ERA+ 120 and 132 in '03 and '05), and one obscene partial season (in '06 he had an ERA+ of 305).

 

Believe it or not, but when he's got his head screwed on right, Mike Macdougal is a dominant reliever, and could bring SOMETHING decent back in a trade.

[BearSox]

Jumping in late here, and while his value is not through the roof, MacDougal still has value, and could be a key piece as a throw in a deal. Too many underestimate the value of pitchers with MacDougals stuff. Every team in the league would be willing to take a chance on him. Look at Aardsma, he was as bad, if not worse than MacDougal last year and we did get two borderline decent prospects for him. While we didn't get much for Aardsma, we still got more for him than what we did for Iguchi last year.

 

With the way some people act, you'd think people with MacDougal's stuff grows on trees.